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  1. #341
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    If they were truly interested in having people actively participate in the Beta Testing, they would have made it a priority to make sure people could actually get in on the weekend they asked many of us to join, and we would have had more communication from them than a "we're looking into it" on Friday night.

    Their silence is, once again, deafening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  2. #342
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    Cool no response

    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    If they were truly interested in having people actively participate in the Beta Testing, they would have made it a priority to make sure people could actually get in on the weekend they asked many of us to join, and we would have had more communication from them than a "we're looking into it" on Friday night.

    Their silence is, once again, deafening.
    I am pretty sure I read they had the weekend off, only support for harassment issues would be handled.

  3. #343
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    Default Hear, hear

    Quote Originally Posted by DamonNomad View Post
    Just expecting better server response if everyone saying they're going to bail out actually does....
    I must be getting old. I remember the entire internet being down with fewer complaints... Of course, there were only a couple dozen of us on then with 300 baud modems, and we still had enough imagination to play "manually" because we still had manuals and dice...

    I understand that people are frustrated, but are harassing comments really going to help? Posted assumptions that no one is working on it? You've never worked on a problem where you had the option to work on the fix or try to placate the people whining over it being broken?

    And, based on a break down of the logs, things are changing, they are working through it. Just because you do not see progress is no reason to spread dissent. It's a beta test. None of you bought this software, and none of you have lost anything, but the few minutes to try to log in, see it failed, and move on. You probably lost more time in reading this than in NOT playing online.

    Just my 2 cents, but whiners make lousy testers. Nothing is ever good enough.

    No replies necessary...
    This needs a reply: I give you a standing ovation.

  4. #344
    Community Member Venny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momsboys View Post
    But if turbine didn't have many, or any, VIP subscribers they would either have to go broke or put ads in the game. Plus they Invited VIP players to join the party. So it's not just the fact that it wont let people on, its that they invited them to join. Plus there was a person (dont remember who) who has the expansion but has not been able to get on over the past times the server has been up.
    Me.... I am one of those that Pre-ordered this Expansion and I am VIP and I can't get in.
    I have sent my logs in all 10 of them.

    I have been testing on Lam since Oh I don't know a long time now. Every time there is something new to test I am here testing it along with my hubby (Rizzyn) We write reviews and he posts them because I really don't see any reason for us to both do it.

    We run parties with Devs, I have enjoyed the Raids we ran with Shade even had Shade saying "Where is Venny?" cause I had the buff he wanted.

    Ran into Kings Forest with a Dev who still had his Unkillable button clicked so he was at -10,000 and still alive during testing of the MotU expansion. The point is I enjoy Running and testing and writing reviews unlike many of the other 'Testers' that I see writing reviews who all they do is complain, whine, B* and moan about X-Y and Z being 'nerfed' Yeah I have done it once or twice but then I shuffled through the changes and tested them myself and through testing and giving data and feed back were able to find a lovely compromise with what I did have an issue with.

    I know I have gotten off topic here... Meh

    I enjoy testing and giving Feedback; both Good and Bad. As I have said in my posts before I will continue to test because I enjoy it. I don't really enjoy going back to live and being some kind of Tour guide though some times I really do enjoy it... especially if they are my friends and I wanna show them all the nifty things... but that is life can't have it all though sometimes it seems like I can have my Cake and eat it too.... all you need is two cakes

    Venny.
    Last edited by Venny; 07-29-2013 at 08:17 AM.
    Happily Deforming the Game one Leap of Faith at a time.

  5. #345
    Content Designer KookieKobold's Avatar
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    Hey everyone

    Just a quick update

    We've got our engineers investigating a fix to get all of you folks able to log into Lamannia!

    As usual, i'll keep you all updated with information as I receive it.

  6. #346
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    Hey everyone

    Just a quick update

    We've got our engineers investigating a fix to get all of you folks able to log into Lamannia!

    As usual, i'll keep you all updated with information as I receive it.
    As much as we gripe this is much appreciated.

    Any chance of getting some more dev events for all of us VIP chimps who missed out on the weekend?

  7. #347
    The Hatchery NytCrawlr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    Hey everyone

    Just a quick update

    We've got our engineers investigating a fix to get all of you folks able to log into Lamannia!

    As usual, i'll keep you all updated with information as I receive it.
    Thanks Kookie, much appreciated. Hope there are some new events coming up since we couldn't attend this past weekend.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    Hey everyone

    Just a quick update

    We've got our engineers investigating a fix to get all of you folks able to log into Lamannia!

    As usual, i'll keep you all updated with information as I receive it.
    Thanks, looking forward to the next update... hopefully announcing the FIX!

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    Hey everyone

    Just a quick update

    We've got our engineers investigating a fix to get all of you folks able to log into Lamannia!

    As usual, i'll keep you all updated with information as I receive it.
    Is this not the same issue that was present before in this very beta cycle?
    The Great Gnome Conspiracy was here!

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    Hey everyone

    Just a quick update

    We've got our engineers investigating a fix to get all of you folks able to log into Lamannia!

    As usual, i'll keep you all updated with information as I receive it.
    Please tell me your not going to pull it down sometime in the next couple days. You've pulled Lama down Monday or Tues after each preview.

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonNomad View Post
    Just expecting better server response if everyone saying they're going to bail out actually does....
    I must be getting old. I remember the entire internet being down with fewer complaints... Of course, there were only a couple dozen of us on then with 300 baud modems, and we still had enough imagination to play "manually" because we still had manuals and dice...

    I understand that people are frustrated, but are harassing comments really going to help? Posted assumptions that no one is working on it? You've never worked on a problem where you had the option to work on the fix or try to placate the people whining over it being broken?

    And, based on a break down of the logs, things are changing, they are working through it. Just because you do not see progress is no reason to spread dissent. It's a beta test. None of you bought this software, and none of you have lost anything, but the few minutes to try to log in, see it failed, and move on. You probably lost more time in reading this than in NOT playing online.

    Just my 2 cents, but whiners make lousy testers. Nothing is ever good enough.

    No replies necessary...
    Yet another lemming defending incompetence because he has a stake in the game and wants to bump his reputation with the devs. Oh... lets not stop at the 300 baud modem days, why not go back to Morse code and how upset we were when that system was down...no no lets go back even further...What a limp argument. You need to stick to the times and being the present day, yes we expect bugs in betas and yes we expect to provide feedback on those bugs and yes we want to try out and see all the cool new content. What we don't expect however, is being invited to a beta test only to discover we can't test period.
    Next you go on to spew that based on the breakdown of logs (which began friday night I might add) that things are changing, they are working on it. Well given the sparse updates and their context it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize when someones in damage control and not closing in at all or taking drastic steps to find the solution.
    Next lets address your flippant comment about us not having lost anything more than a few minutes trying to log in. I know its a stretch trying to get you to imagine something from your tunneled vision but here's how the scenario played out for many of us. We get an invite last week to come back and test the closed beta and have an opportunity to win prizes. Taking the time to download and update the beta (5hrs for me) we eagerly get to the login screen just to find we get stopped in our tracks by some queue error. So then we go to the forums and reply in as many related threads as possible just to get the Devs to take notice. Eventually they do and they give updates and try a few things, I give Kookie credit here. During this time, many of us stay by our computers for several hrs seeing if there are any updates that require this or need us to send that. Then eventually around Saturday afternoon, it becomes obvious that the problem is beyond their ability due to the lack of updates and then finally in their final update that night they admit the problem may not be fixed until Monday. So yeah, the entire debacle didn't cost us anything more than a few minutes.
    And finally I'd argue that whiners make far better testers because they have no qualms telling it like it is rather than lemmings, like you, who see nothing but rainbows and flower gardens. Typically I'm an easy going person, which you might find hard to believe, but at the same time I can't abide people who preach diplomacy from a biased viewpoint. So yeah, a reply was necessary...
    Last edited by slam9900; 07-29-2013 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #352
    Community Member CarpeNoctu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    Hey everyone

    Just a quick update

    We've got our engineers investigating a fix to get all of you folks able to log into Lamannia!

    As usual, i'll keep you all updated with information as I receive it.
    Thanks, as always, for the info. I have a question/suggestion, though... Have you tried a sledge hammer? I've found that they (sledge hammers, that is) work equally well on engineers as computers and servers (and many other forms of technology) though the threat is often enough for engineers... Of course, you'll have to go through with it at least once, but it will work from that point forward.

  13. #353
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgraim View Post
    Oh hey look, a comedian. My issue lies with the fact that every time they open Lamma there is an issue like this, every single time. You can fanboy up all you want but all you are doing is excusing an inferior product. The more you pat them on the back hoping for them to throw you a little fish while you clap and make your happy noises the more they think they can get away with it. Open criticism is a necessary part of the development process. I payed for access to the beta and I'm not receiving it, do I have a right to be angry? Damn right I do, I payed for a product and I expect to receive it. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to take their fanboy blinders off.

    I know this post is a few pages back, but I felt the need to comment on it because…well…it’s lunacy.

    If you’ve read my posts, you’ll get the idea that I’m not exactly a fan of Turbine and how they manage their software. But I do this type of work for a living, and I know how these things work.

    It is B-E-T-A S-O-F-T-W-A-R-E. If you don’t understand that concept, please feel free to look it up. As much as you test and work on stuff while in the development or alpha-phase stages of the process, there is no guarantee that you will be 90% bug-free by the time you get to the beta phase of testing. And these types of things happen which is THE WHOLE FRICKIN’ POINT WHY YOU DO TESTING. Duh!

    Some of us were invited to try this, others were give exclusive access to the software in the beta stages of testing. However, just because you paid for it doesn’t mean that you are guaranteed a bug-free experience because you didn’t understand what that “testing” thing was all about. Stomping your feet and screaming at the top of your lungs because you PAID to get into the stated of software that is almost guaranteed to have bugs, and is EXPLICITLY STATED as being in the beta phase of testing is neither helpful or…uh…sane.

    In short, it’s kinda like paying extra for your bratwurst so that you can go to the factory, watch them put meat into the grinders, and see the process of them making the sausages. Some people like that kinds of stuff. Then again, there are some people who like paying others so that they can dress them up in diapers, give them warm baths, and then do all sorts of odd and mind-bending stuff that would mar the psyches of common, everyday people (or make them get violently ill...or both).

    BTW, if you enjoy eating sausages you probably don’t want to see how they are made. Just sayin’…

    You paid for this disappointment. Don’t get mad at Turbine, the Devs, the poor receptionist at their offices, or the guy who delivers coffee to the Devs because you don’t have access to the system right now. While it is disappointing that they would have errors on this grand of a scale, it is a possibility will within the scope of what is commonly defined as “beta testing.” You can rant and rave that this thing shouldn’t happen – and you’d be right to do so – but you can’t get all bent out of shape because it did. You signed up for that possibility. Suck it up.

    Now if Turbine fixes the problem, and goes straight to production after they fixed things, you then have a right to get all hopping mad. You would have been denied the beta experience, and therefor would have a legal right to demand repayment or recompense of some sort. But - unless someone with their hands on the lever of powers goes on a 7-day bender with some sort of mind-altering, illicit substance and orders them to go straight to production – that isn’t going to happen.

    Then again, I’ve seen stranger things happen in the business world…

  14. #354
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    Sorry -- I work in the industry too. I've been involved in hundreds of beta tests too.

    Rule #1 is don't invite your best paying customers into the test until you know the software is pretty close to gold/release candidate.

    Why?

    a) customers make bad testers -- their expectations are high & they are looking out for themselves & they don't usually want to do bug reports -- they want to play or work with the sw.

    b) if they have a bad experience, you run the risk of tarnishing your reputation, which is not worth it because a) they are bad testers and you don't get much valuable feedback from them anyway.

    So yes, we understand it's beta software, which means it's going to have problems. That's not really the point here. It's how we're communicated with.

    This isn't rocket science -- it is (or at least should be) QA and Product Management 101
    Last edited by scurryn; 07-29-2013 at 11:39 AM.

  15. #355
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    I wouldn't say we're getting bent out of shape but rather, imaginative with our responses. This type of colossal failure could be forgiven by a company new to mmo's but that's just not the case here. How is it even possible for an established mmo company to be experiencing login issues? Well the answer, hard as it is to believe, is that Turbine has a long history of login issues (both with DDO and LOTRO) which after this many years, they haven't been able to resolve. So yeah...some of us get a bit colorful because after all this time we maybe expected more.

  16. #356
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scurryn View Post
    Sorry -- I work in the industry too. I've been involved in hundreds of beta tests too.

    Rule #1 is don't invite your best paying customers into the test until you know the software is pretty close to gold/release candidate.
    First, that wasn’t the point of my post. The point was: they paid for this, it is a possibility this type of stuff will happen, don’t whine about it.

    I’ll dismantle the rest of your arguments below.

    Quote Originally Posted by scurryn View Post
    Why?

    a) customers make bad testers -- their expectations are high & they are looking out for themselves & they don't usually want to do bug reports -- they want to play or work with the sw.
    But they find stuff they you otherwise wouldn’t find. The press buttons that people who are normally familiar with the system wouldn’t push. The only issue is to translate their feedback into a working test plan. Poor feedback usually comes from unmotivated testers.

    Second, expectations are only high if you don’t have people out there managing customer expectations. That is 90% of the problem with ALL of the software being developed these days. It has zero to do with the actual testing phase.

    Likewise, you face the exact same problem whether you do that at the release phase or in the beta-test stage. Stuff may work, but customers still have the high expectations, and therefore you damage your reputation because they will assume that because you don’t have X, Y, or Z in your software it is therefore defective.

    Quote Originally Posted by scurryn View Post
    b) if they have a bad experience, you run the risk of tarnishing your reputation, which is not worth it because a) they are bad testers and you don't get much valuable feedback from them anyway.
    That’s if you first create poorly-developed software, do not include the end-users in the design, and assume they are morons. This is the type of drivel they teach in colleges, and really does not apply at all. The people using the software know their job, and their business. They are the FIRST people you want using your stuff, and telling you how much of a hindrance / help it is to use.

    If you don’t consider that “valuable feedback,” I don’t know what to tell you.

    As for reputation: the fastest way to tarnish your reputation is work on an assumption, have the end-user customer tell you how that assumption is wrong in the final release, and then keeping that feature in your software because you’ve released it, and it costs far too much to roll back and fix. Instead, you can hit stuff with customers in the beta stage, and find these problems before the concrete starts to solidify.

    Quote Originally Posted by scurryn View Post
    So yes, we understand it's beta software, which means it's going to have problems. That's not really the point here. It's how we're communicated with.
    And from what I’ve seen, you have a point with Turbine and bad communications. I’ve highlighted that too. And their poor communication has made a bad situation even worse.

    I’ve designed and developed software for people who were utterly hostile to my very presence at the start of the process. With including customers in the design, alpha, and beta stages I’ve turned that hostility into active cooperation. That’s because the customer gets visible buy-in, and they have some stake in keeping what they get as a final solution from inhibiting their normal operations.

    Still, some of the people ranting as I have highlighted have no reason to gripe or complain. They were informed at the beginning that this was a beta release, and this type of stuff could happen. It did. Suck it up.

    So I vehemently do not agree.

  17. #357
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slam9900 View Post
    I wouldn't say we're getting bent out of shape but rather, imaginative with our responses. This type of colossal failure could be forgiven by a company new to mmo's but that's just not the case here. How is it even possible for an established mmo company to be experiencing login issues? Well the answer, hard as it is to believe, is that Turbine has a long history of login issues (both with DDO and LOTRO) which after this many years, they haven't been able to resolve. So yeah...some of us get a bit colorful because after all this time we maybe expected more.
    Or they have included a fix that eliminates a lot of long-standing disconnection issues.

    You don't know what they are offering. And sometimes it is better to no inform the user just to get an untainted reaction.

    Granted, this should have been better tested by the time they went beta, but monumental mistakes are sometimes part of the beta-test process.

  18. #358
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    Oh boy, the old "I was a so a so" card so I'm an expert. Can we just presume we were all lead engineers for NASA in a past life and move on?

  19. #359
    Community Member Tulmeel's Avatar
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    Default How about compairing apples and oranges to bricks ?

    [QUOTE=scurryn;5052322]Sorry -- I work in the industry too. I've been involved in hundreds of beta tests too.

    Rule #1 is don't invite your best paying customers into the test until you know the software is pretty close to gold/release candidate.

    Why?'.......................



    This is of course totally unexpected. They have another test server which is configured somewhat differently than Lamina . They have a dedicated and experienced group of players that test exhaustively. The problem here is that, as has been noted else where, this is all hand crafted software with documentation miles deep. Considering that the enterprise is years old and has been through a huge number of management changes with copy right and owner ship fights added in it is surprising that the game functions at all after major changes.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I vehemently do not agree.
    As far as I can tell, we both agree that this was COMPLETELY bungled on the Turbine side. (Not having to do with the software itself or how its actually being fixed)

    What we don't agree is whether people have a right to complain about it & I don't care as much about that.

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