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  1. #1
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    Default EE Arcanes not in shiradi

    Just wondering how many people are running EE with arcanes in something other than shiradi?

    EH is a joke of course on pretty much anything - trying to run EE's on my air sorc ... DC 52 before debuffs ... when i can get thru saves, it feels like i'm only tickling them.

    Just trying to decide if it's learning curve i need to work on or damn near impossible.

  2. #2
    I <3 DDO wey4lust's Avatar
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    Draconic have stronger dps than shiradi (well that depends cuz shiradi can get real lucky with procs) but as game is now shiradi sorc is most sp/dmg effective. It may change in ep tho.
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    Community Member Cynning's Avatar
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    Default shiradi

    A friend of mine mostly runs in Draconic with Rainbow and Double Rainbow twisted in. He is still testing it, but seems to get the best of both worlds. So far, he loves it...
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    But in EE with the stat dam resistance double rainbow isn't doing anything?....

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddong View Post
    But in EE with the stat dam resistance double rainbow isn't doing anything?....
    Double Rainbow is 7% chance of some random damage thing happening. The list changes every update but I've included what DDOWiki has on it.

    Rainbow: Passive Bonus: While in Prism Stance, your ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance to deal 1d100 extra damage of a random type.

    What I wasn't aware of is that you could benefit from twisting these without also twisting prism. I hadn't tried it though so I can't comment on whether it does work...I just assumed it didn't.
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    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Default spell power inclusive

    The double rainbow procs and Shiradi passive (bottom level) procs are also subject to spell power. So when it reads 7% to deal 10d10 sonic damage, that's multiplied by your spell power. I regularly see 1000-3000 light damage.

    Shiradi to me is like gambling. Draconic gives regular guaranteed spell power/damage. Shiradi you toss the dice. Sometimes you get good stuff, sometimes not. Sometimes you get a string of rolls that just annihilates a mob with 100,000 hp in seconds. You don't want to dump CHA/INT or spell power in hopes of a lucky toss though, it's good to have a stable DC and solid DPS in case you're not so lucky and you need some speed in DPS.

    my two cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iaga View Post
    Just trying to decide if it's learning curve i need to work on or damn near impossible.
    It is a case of poor design, not of a learning curve. Spell Damage just does not keep up with mob scaling in the slightest. Even if you are recalling out of the quest to go Shrine every five minutes, running around with a significantly detracted value to the party, Draconic casters just do not pull their weight in the current EEs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynning View Post
    A friend of mine mostly runs in Draconic with Rainbow and Double Rainbow twisted in. He is still testing it, but seems to get the best of both worlds. So far, he loves it...
    How exactly does he do this? Double Rainbow requires Prism stance, and costs 10 Fate Points to twist in. Rainbow requires Prism Stance and costs 9 Fate Points to twist in. Prism costs 7 Fate Points to twist in. We can currently earn 18 Fate Points from Epic Destiny levels, and 2 Fate Points from Tomes.

    Also, Nerve Venom is just as useful, if not more so, and it is not Twistable.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 07-26-2013 at 12:20 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    It is a case of poor design, not of a learning curve. Spell Damage just does not keep up with mob scaling in the slightest. Even if you are recalling out of the quest to go Shrine every five minutes, running around with a significantly detracted value to the party, Draconic casters just do not pull their weight in the current EEs.
    This is more or less what i'm thinking. Not being able to use meta's for draconic bursts/breathe and then whatever changes they made to crits resulted in lower damage and then they went and super inflated HP in EE content. Felt like a double nerf, which sucks. At least i know i'm not missing something obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    How exactly does he do this? Double Rainbow requires Prism stance, and costs 10 Fate Points to twist in. Rainbow requires Prism Stance and costs 9 Fate Points to twist in. Prism costs 7 Fate Points to twist in. We can currently earn 18 Fate Points from Epic Destiny levels, and 2 Fate Points from Tomes
    I thought this was the case as well. If you're able to twist in double rainbow and have it work, that opens a lot of possibilities.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I'm a stubborn old bastard regarding this, 99% of the time my Wizard is in draconic with a 56 necro DC.

    There are some quests where she's useless, but it's not as many as most think. You can still kill decently with prepping and energy burst+ mass-hold works well. I can usually squeeze our 25-30 kills a shrine without drinking and SP pots.

    It's fine, good in a group but not dominant. Typically the top killer but not by the margins we typically are used to in easier content.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm a stubborn old bastard regarding this, 99% of the time my Wizard is in draconic with a 56 necro DC.

    There are some quests where she's useless, but it's not as many as most think. You can still kill decently with prepping and energy burst+ mass-hold works well. I can usually squeeze our 25-30 kills a shrine without drinking and SP pots.

    It's fine, good in a group but not dominant. Typically the top killer but not by the margins we typically are used to in easier content.
    PM< or AM necro-speced?

  11. #11
    Community Member Torkzed's Avatar
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    I thought I'd throw out some observations on shiradi specced wizards in case anyone is thinking about going to it.

    I am a moderately experienced player with very average gaming dexterity that recently made the switch from a necro/conj specced WF AM to a 18/2 wiz/monk shiradi spec.

    I take no credit for the build. I shamelessly copied it from the forums ( search for Zergod). But I have enjoyed playing it and learning the right way to do things with it.

    As has been mentioned, EH is not the issue. Almost any build can work in EH. But in EE. I wasn't as survivable as I'd like. And even though I had a cheap web SLA that worked pretty well when kiting stuff through it, I inevitably had to use two spells to kill a target (not sure whether it was cheaper to debuff and kill, or just cast two instakill, but neither method was reliable with low 50s in necro DC.) This almost always meant that I had to start guzzling pots or just pike.

    The survivability thing is why I really made the switch. Adding the monk levels gave me evasion, and a small boost to saves. More importantly, it meant I was not going to have reliable DCs which was actually kind of liberating. I didnt need to max spell pen, and I didnt feel like i needed to get greater focus in two schools. This freed up feats for mental toughness feats and insightful reflexes. I also didnt need to twist in stuff to boost DCs. Instead, I could twist in all the tier 1 saves boosters. Overall, I upped my saves from low 40s to low 50s and added evasion...much better survivabilty.

    Of course, without the traditional instakills, I am totally tied to shiradi procs to get the required damage at an efficient SP cost. And the primary CC is nerve venom, because nothing else is going to be decent above EN.

    The build requires more patience. I spam chain missile, chain missile SLA in early stages of a fight, trying to nerve venom as much stuff as possible. When the numbers come down a little, I rely on the cheaper magic missile and magic missile SLA.

    Every fight seems more like a war of attrition, but as long as i don't burn too much SP on reconstructs, I know I will be okay, because the force spells are so cheap, and I am always getting closer to stuff being dead. I carry reconstruct scrolls to extend SP when I don't need the heals *right now*.

    What I have noticed is that I am much more productive in EE groups, and can even solo the easy to medium ones without pots (I do have a bauble, and also carry a talisman, a non-epic ROSS, and an archivist necklace). I also still use a conc-op item and a torq when I solo. A more skilled player could likely solo the harder EE quests as well. (again, see Zergod as one example)

    However, with this build I am not any better than traditionally built wizards in EH, since in EH they can still keep up using efficient instant kills.

    Players not familiar with the build don't understand the CC technique at first. Ive had people ask why I am not casting webs or dancing balls until they start to notice how common it is to just see mobs just stuck in place from the nerve venom. I keep ottos irresistable dance on hand for stubborn mobs, but use it sparingly. Ditto for PW: Kill.

    I don't think shiradi will really work if you only try to go part way. There is no "try", there is "do" or "do not". Unless you want to swap out a bunch of feats, redo enhancements, and LR a couple of levels, it is not easy to switch back and forth. At least not for EE.

    Anyway, I hope that might help out other wizards trying to decide whether they should make the switch.

  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    PM< or AM necro-speced?
    Human PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torkzed View Post
    snip
    It's been pretty well established that Shiradi is likely the best option for an arcane in EE content. It takes no DCs, no PLs and minimal gear. All while being SP efficient and damn effective. Just roll up your 18/2 and hop around mashing magic missle, force missle and chain missle til stuff is dead.

    My frustration, and i suspect that of many other arcane players, is that draconic and magister are so far behind shiradi in EE play that they can't be played with any degree of effectiveness.

    I'm not looking to get shiradi nerfed - i'd just like to see other arcane play styles become more realistic options in EE.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iaga View Post
    Just wondering how many people are running EE with arcanes in something other than shiradi?

    EH is a joke of course on pretty much anything - trying to run EE's on my air sorc ... DC 52 before debuffs ... when i can get thru saves, it feels like i'm only tickling them.

    Just trying to decide if it's learning curve i need to work on or damn near impossible.
    I run a WF AM pure wiz in magister twisting in 3 extra ints. I run EE all the time, just not solo. (never tried) I think and have been told on occasion that I am a pretty good cc caster. fully buffed with Yugo pots I run with a 56 enchant, 49 necro, and 50 conj dcs. I have just over 3200sp and somewhere around 650hp(fully buffed). I have 2cleric, 1FS, 1sorc, and 3rd wiz past lives. I did have to do a bit of gear hunting. im sure there are other casters with just as good of dcs as that and maybe better. Now, I do not have evasion, which would be nice, but I seem to do alright.

    Im sure the new update will change things , but for the last year or so it has worked great, I know there is quite a bit of work involved to create a toon like this, but it was my goal. I know I probably am just rambling and for that I apologize and I hope this might be what you were looking for.

  15. #15
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    Default Ench DC

    Quote Originally Posted by threehourtour View Post
    fully buffed with Yugo pots I run with a 56 enchant, 49 necro, and 50 conj dcs.... I have 2cleric, 1FS, 1sorc, and 3rd wiz past lives. ...
    How are you getting 56 ench DC, exactly? I have a drow PM that has 3 wiz/1bard PL and can't seem to break 55 ench DC, even with yugos. Perhaps i'm missing something, but a breakdown or something would be nice. Thanks!
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by threehourtour View Post
    I run a WF AM pure wiz in magister ....
    I have a guildy who runs a cc-focused wizard. When he's in group, EE is actually pretty easy [mind you, he can't solo worth a damn because cc is all he does]

    I was wondering more about arcane DPS as an EE option. It's overpowered in EH content but underpowered in EE.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaldor View Post
    How are you getting 56 ench DC, exactly? I have a drow PM that has 3 wiz/1bard PL and can't seem to break 55 ench DC, even with yugos. Perhaps i'm missing something, but a breakdown or something would be nice. Thanks!
    I wish I was smart enough to just somehow post my stats on here, but that's not the case. so a couple things that help me reach a 56 enchant dc.

    1- I got quite lucky in a FoT raid and pulled a +5 tome(int). yeah and I didn't even have to roll for it because I actually pulled it and it ws actually intelligence. I was extremely happy.
    2- the Twilight, element of magic quarterstaff is necessary.
    3- any and all intelligence bonuses available, I wear stormreavers tablecloth, insightful 3 int planar focus of erudition, and I threw in a +1 exceptional int colorless augment in my epic diabolists docent(yeah, it may be older, but it is the only item with a +3 conjuration focus).

    Of course, I maxed intelligence at creation, and took every enhancement and ability point available for intelligence, and not to forget the wizard capstone.

    feats: enchant and necro focus, greater enchant focus, and epic feats great intelligence and epic spell penetration. im debating dropping the epic spell pen for epic spell focus enchant, but I have come to realize that I don't need to atm. my cc is good and the rest of the party can do the damage. Remember, I am not a solo artist on EE, but I don't want to be.

    I the end, standing fully buffed with Yugo pots and my magister maxxed with intelligence, twisting in 3 extra ints from other trees, I will have a 60 intelligence.
    hopefully this is enough detail as I cannot think of anything else. I will check back if I come up with any other details that are pertinent.

    one last thing, I love running with bards who have inspire excellence. Even one more to all my dcs.

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