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  1. #1
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Now is the time to address Epic Elite saves

    With so many new class and racial abilities and spells being added to DDO, now is the time to address the issue of EE monster saves.


    Since i primarily play EE content, every cool new ability you have added in the enhancement pass that has a save i instantly skip over, as I know it will never work in EE, even if I put every stat point, level up, +5 time, ED stat, 3 ED twisted stats, my epic feats as stats etc. into the ability (getting a save DC in the low to mid 50s) will NOT be high enough to work on mobs in EE. Do you see how absolutely ridiculous that is?


    EE is supposed to be challenging, and the massive monster health and damage they deal makes it so. But making preety much all (with few exceptions) meele abilities not function is just silly, and cheapens the combat experience. Thus we have seen the rise of shiradi and FoW knockdown as players gravitate to abilities that have no save, as they are they only ones that work.


    This issue really needs to be addressed.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    They are "fixing" it in their "own special way": giving us +11 stat item and +5 Spell focus. That alone is a +3-4 to Casters' DC.

    Counting that Wizzies are getting another 2 or 3 from enhancements, Sorcerers are getting a +3 also, we are looking at a +5-6 DC for both casters.

    Now for melees, their main source of DC is items. Right now, they all suck. Haven't seen a single "named" item with Stunning +xx or anything like that but I assume it will go up from +15 to +20. Add to this enhancements and +11 stat, and you get +8-9 DC also. ASSUMING that there are +20 DC items for meeles.
    Last edited by Wizza; 07-25-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member apep1412's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    They are "fixing" it in their "own special way": giving us +11 stat item and +5 Spell focus. That alone is a +6-7 to Casters' DC.
    That's +3-4 to a caster's DC. We already have +3 focus items for relevant schools.

  4. #4
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apep1412 View Post
    That's +3-4 to a caster's DC. We already have +3 focus items for relevant schools.
    Yeah, my brain exploded while typing that. Fixed.
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  5. #5

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    I tested this with only a +5 Focus item, only a +8 INT, was getting 57DC unbuffed.

    With Yugoloth potion, 58DC. Still no instant kill on EE trolls in GiantHold Trial By Fire.

    With +11 INT item and perhaps either a +5 INT tome or +3 exceptional INT item, 60DC is possible.

    The trolls still need 2 more enervations or energy drains to be able to one shot them.

    Just past the spiders, the mana bar is down to half... And that's not even 1/4 of the dungeon.

    This is still not working...

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  6. #6
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Counting that Wizzies are getting another 2 or 3 from enhancements, Sorcerers are getting a +3 also, we are looking at a +5-6 DC for both casters. .
    And divines are once again getting the shaft, because they aren't allowed to be casters.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    And divines are once again getting the shaft, because they aren't allowed to be casters.
    Turbine wants them to be healbots, it is not hidden. But, as the poster above said you, even with these buffs there is a long way to go.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    I tested this with only a +5 Focus item, only a +8 INT, was getting 57DC unbuffed.

    With Yugoloth potion, 58DC. Still no instant kill on EE trolls in GiantHold Trial By Fire.

    With +11 INT item and perhaps either a +5 INT tome or +3 exceptional INT item, 60DC is possible.

    The trolls still need 2 more enervations or energy drains to be able to one shot them.

    Just past the spiders, the mana bar is down to half... And that's not even 1/4 of the dungeon.

    This is still not working...
    60 Necro DC is low, don't pretend this is maxxed. My Human PM was getting the on lamania at 25. Go to drow . . . get some better gear . . . mid 60s is the new high DC.

    Is it enough? I have no idea. I found 60 to be underwhelming.

    That said it is unforgivably dumb the we have to rely on no-save abilities.

  9. #9
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    60 Necro DC is low, don't pretend this is maxxed. My Human PM was getting the on lamania at 25. Go to drow . . . get some better gear . . . mid 60s is the new high DC.

    Is it enough? I have no idea. I found 60 to be underwhelming.

    That said it is unforgivably dumb the we have to rely on no-save abilities.
    The ridiculously high saves on EE are why I've shelved my DC based wizard (already has 3 wiz past lives). I have no plans to play him until some sort of balance is restored.
    /sigh

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    They are "fixing" it in their "own special way": giving us +11 stat item and +5 Spell focus. That alone is a +3-4 to Casters' DC.
    Yeah, "special" is a kind way of saying it. I truly couldnt think of a worse way to fix a problem they deliberately created with mob mechanics than by throwing us new loot.

  11. #11
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Yeah, "special" is a kind way of saying it. I truly couldnt think of a worse way to fix a problem they deliberately created with mob mechanics than by throwing us new loot.
    On top of this, this "special" way to "fix" this problem won't even working properly. We need moar DCs to make it worth something.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Now for melees, their main source of DC is items. Right now, they all suck. Haven't seen a single "named" item with Stunning +xx or anything like that but I assume it will go up from +15 to +20. Add to this enhancements and +11 stat, and you get +8-9 DC also. ASSUMING that there are +20 DC items for meeles.
    Besides the tactical DC stuff, there's also Assassinate and I believe a few other such abilities that don't benefit from the Exceptional Combat Mastery found on some gear.

    The following might be different after Lamannia returns in a few hours, but there are several melee abilities that are a flat static number. For example, Ravager's Tier 3 Core Ability is Demoralizing Success: when you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw.

    But there's also the DCs that are determined by Class levels (found in both melee and caster stuff). With the Epic levels now getting to be almost 1/3 for the full level of a capped player, I think DCs based on Class levels need to be adjusted so also include the Epic levels. Two examples:
    * Assassinate is (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier), but should probably be turned into (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier + Epic Level)
    * Sweeping Strike is (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + DEX Modifier negates), but probably should be turned into (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Half Epic Level + DEX Modifier negates)

  13. #13
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Besides the tactical DC stuff, there's also Assassinate and I believe a few other such abilities that don't benefit from the Exceptional Combat Mastery found on some gear.

    The following might be different after Lamannia returns in a few hours, but there are several melee abilities that are a flat static number. For example, Ravager's Tier 3 Core Ability is Demoralizing Success: when you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw.

    But there's also the DCs that are determined by Class levels (found in both melee and caster stuff). With the Epic levels now getting to be almost 1/3 for the full level of a capped player, I think DCs based on Class levels need to be adjusted so also include the Epic levels. Two examples:
    * Assassinate is (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier), but should probably be turned into (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier + Epic Level)
    * Sweeping Strike is (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + DEX Modifier negates), but probably should be turned into (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Half Epic Level + DEX Modifier negates)
    True. And this is why, with every update, you will always see a thread made by me to give Rogues an item with + Assassinate DC. Right now, we are stuck with EMG for Assassinate.
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  14. #14
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Besides the tactical DC stuff, there's also Assassinate and I believe a few other such abilities that don't benefit from the Exceptional Combat Mastery found on some gear.

    The following might be different after Lamannia returns in a few hours, but there are several melee abilities that are a flat static number. For example, Ravager's Tier 3 Core Ability is Demoralizing Success: when you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw.

    But there's also the DCs that are determined by Class levels (found in both melee and caster stuff). With the Epic levels now getting to be almost 1/3 for the full level of a capped player, I think DCs based on Class levels need to be adjusted so also include the Epic levels. Two examples:
    * Assassinate is (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier), but should probably be turned into (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier + Epic Level)
    * Sweeping Strike is (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + DEX Modifier negates), but probably should be turned into (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Half Epic Level + DEX Modifier negates)

    It's an odd choice by the developers to increase monster power with each expansion but not character power. That's how the DCs are so out of control now for NPCs. They see it as a sliding scale upwards with each update, but the loot is not on the same scale in terms of DCs. Ever since high road, we've been behind.

  15. #15
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    Lets face it, they have to redo spell DCs just like the did AC.

    You can't scale how they scale forever...

    Spell Pen (retool)
    Casting/Combat DCs (retool)

    Clearly we're in a DND like system already, where the D20 roll is just "synthetic" for combat.

  16. #16
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    The ridiculously high saves on EE are why I've shelved my DC based wizard (already has 3 wiz past lives). I have no plans to play him until some sort of balance is restored.
    Same thing for me(well only 2 wizard past lives sofar.. but they do not help DCs anyway beyond one for the feat.). Been on shelf since a bit after gianthold came out. Just silly how high the required DCs are.

  17. #17
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Lets face it, they have to redo spell DCs just like the did AC.

    You can't scale how they scale forever...

    Spell Pen (retool)
    Casting/Combat DCs (retool)

    Clearly we're in a DND like system already, where the D20 roll is just "synthetic" for combat.
    There is no need to redo spell DCs. They need to bring down EE saves by 5. Done. Everything is possible now.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    The ridiculously high saves on EE are why I've shelved my DC based wizard (already has 3 wiz past lives). I have no plans to play him until some sort of balance is restored.
    Same

    I invested heavily in my wiz for EE guild runs (3 past lives wiz 3 past lives fvs). Now I just use him in Draconic/Shiradi for EH content or EE eveningstar and below. A 18/2 sorc/pal first lifer is actually better because of the superior spell point pool.

    Still I want to test him out after the enhancement pass and see how it works.
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  19. #19
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    They're also changing stunning/vertigo/... to reduce will/ref/fort saves by 5, which means someone running as a DC debuffer with the right DC (fort, probably) will be able to help casters 25%.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Besides the tactical DC stuff, there's also Assassinate and I believe a few other such abilities that don't benefit from the Exceptional Combat Mastery found on some gear.

    The following might be different after Lamannia returns in a few hours, but there are several melee abilities that are a flat static number. For example, Ravager's Tier 3 Core Ability is Demoralizing Success: when you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw.

    But there's also the DCs that are determined by Class levels (found in both melee and caster stuff). With the Epic levels now getting to be almost 1/3 for the full level of a capped player, I think DCs based on Class levels need to be adjusted so also include the Epic levels. Two examples:
    * Assassinate is (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier), but should probably be turned into (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier + Epic Level)
    * Sweeping Strike is (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + DEX Modifier negates), but probably should be turned into (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Half Epic Level + DEX Modifier negates)
    The last thing that the devs need to do is add epic levels to a DC when it only includes heroic levels. While the DCs in Epic Elite content might seem off the charts in reality they're not, my guildy who plays a halfling assassin is already able to hit 68-70ish DC with his assassinate, while maintaining 700hp with dodge/incorp/conc as well as 250-300 points of SA damage. Adding epic levels to these DCs would overpower an assassin and make them practically a no fail. Part of running Epic Elites is also knowing what to do, hitting a caster with an assassinate is a good idea because they have low fortitude saves, but a stone giant which has high fortitude saves is much harder to assassinate. When it comes to crowd control while Hold monster/Dancing Sphere have high DCs there is no save for Otto's Irresistible Dance and works extremely well on shadar kai assassins and orange letter bosses. When it comes to mass CC Bards have a really useful ability called fascinate (You know, what they use to do to all the bases in Epic Dragon when the level cap was 20) and works very readily against many Epic Elite mobs, as long as the group doesn't have a pale master with death aura, a barbarian using great cleave, or a sorcerer casting fire wall.

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