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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Usually we run through them. Depending on the quest and the number of people we have, sometimes we will have a box breaker as well. I am not against doing this as long as the party runs smooth and gets fast xp.
    The reason I ask is because this is one reason I know of why people don't like to trap. I haven't pugged with my characters that can trap, but I wouldn't if I knew that it was this type of group. I like to actually play the full character, not just run around alone doing traps and getting the chests that other people that I can't even see already opened. I'm not saying no one likes to play this way, just saying not everyone likes to play your way either.

  2. #342
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The reason I ask is because this is one reason I know of why people don't like to trap. I haven't pugged with my characters that can trap, but I wouldn't if I knew that it was this type of group. I like to actually play the full character, not just run around alone doing traps and getting the chests that other people that I can't even see already opened. I'm not saying no one likes to play this way, just saying not everyone likes to play your way either.
    Believe me I understand. I truly have nothing against anyone that plays a certain way. No matter how bad I think that it is, I hope that people have fun in this game.
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  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    You don't seem to want a discussion.
    Either through ignorance or malice you have both deliberately misrepresented what I have said on this topic and insulted my ability to make a character.

    You are correct, I have no interest in continuing a discussion with you because of that.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Thankfully, in game, I play with a better cut of people then that...
    Whatever high ground you may have thought you had on the name calling... you lost it all right there.

    I guess having lost the argument, you are left with nothing but name calling.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    in red
    Jugg's have manyshot. Many (but not all) don't use xbows at all.
    The Sithali, King of Burst DPS (12Mnk/6Rgr/2Ftr) build doesn't put down the bow.
    Tulkaw's has nothing to do with a defensive shiradi sorc build.

    Sometimes pushing a class means stepping outside what is typically expected for that class.

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    LOL.. Been there, Seen that.

    Anyway, Wonderful discussion, I sincerely loved how the same group of people who making a fuss about how a ranger should be able to heal themselves and belittling the 2K HP barb who did not have heal amp, have turned full circle to say that they should be allowed to build whatever moronic gimp they want to build.

    Thankfully, in game, I play with a better cut of people then that, people who know that if they place expectations on others that expectations equally get placed upon them, and our goal as players and friends is help support and lift each other up so that we can not only continue to meet but to exceed the expectations we have of each other for a better more enjoyable game for everyone we get involved with.

    To my friends in game, you know who you are, and I want to say, I hope we never stop helping each other building each other up, and giving advice and assistance on how to make for better toons overall. A sincere thank you to you all.

    To the people on the forums, you are right, I have no control of the build you bring into my group, but, I do control if I want to run with you and no matter how many words you waste on this forum about how you should be allowed to make gimps and play the way you want, when you join a group, you will be judged, you will be measured, and if you are found wanting, you will not welcome back.

    With that, I bid you all good game.
    Some quotes look better in context.
    Last edited by Tscheuss; 07-29-2013 at 12:28 AM.
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  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Look at that again, "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" but see, the main issue here is that everyone that puts up a BYOH LFM does.

    See the whole point is, that the very existence of a BYOH LFM is players expecting a barb (and everyone else) to be able to heal themselves.

    So yes, the first line does contradict the second one, if NO ONE automatically expected a barb to be able to heal themselves they would never expect a Barb to ever join a BYOH LFM.
    Barb self healing is trivial up to about level 16. I'm working on a gear upgrade then I'll push through to 20, because healing again gets trivial in epics.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Some quotes look better in context.
    It is still name calling, and the context doesn't change that. In fact, IMO it makes it worse. Especially paired with a post whining about having been insulted.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    What is a barbs? Full potential? I am unsure after reading your earlier post



    What is the full potential of a barb in your opinion? I am sure that you are a talented player, and could make a decent barb in no time. What I am interested in is what you would tell a brand new person?

    Dump con and invest in wisdom so you have better will saves?
    Dump str and max dex for a better reflex save?
    Dump con and str and put it all in cha to build umd?

    I am a firm believer that it is not the icon that determines what you get out of a party. It is the person behind the keyboard. A skilled player can turn any abortion of a toon into something decent.

    Lastly, I could care less about DPS. I do not boot the player with the least kills after a mission. As long as everyone contributes to a certain extent, we will continue to fly thru quests.
    first timer advice? what would i honestly tell someone who was a first time barb? potentially new to the game? don't "dump" anything. str and con are a barb's most important stats, obviously, but to the exclusion of all else is risky. stat drain is a ***** if you have any dumped stats, and if you eventually get enough favor for silver flame pots (teh mack daddy of self healing for barbs) you need enough in your stats to take the -10 and not get knocked helpless. a straight barb is unlikely to have the UMD for scrolls or wands, so a huge charisma score is not needed, but i wouldn't recommending leaving it at a 6 for a dwarf or horc. completely dumped wisdom is dangerous due to holds. dex doesn't have to be super high unless you chose to dual-wield. save cash, stock up on cure potions. as poor as they are, they are one of the few options for self healing for a straight barb, and there won't always be someone around to heal you. and even if you DO have a healer babysitting... be considerate... help them save their blue bar and do your best to top off when you can with what you have. try to find and equip heal amp... more bang for your buck from your heal pots, and healers will love you more.

    the rules get skewed a bit if you splash or go with a helf dilly... 2 rogue for evasion? a bit more dex for a better reflex... some int for more skill points... cleric dilly for scrolls? need 13 wisdom to pull that off....that comes out of your con and str obviously... and yeah, you'll have a few less HP, and you'll hit slightly less hard, but it opens up a whole world of ways you can "push the envelope" AND add more potential survival to your build. it's better to hit for 300 and be able to save your hide if something goes wrong, than hit for 350 and be a backpack ornament if the mob looks at you crosseyed.


    i haven't played a barb yet... haven't really been all that interested, but if i were to start one now (assuming 28 point build.. 32 point in parentheses)...

    human dwarf horc helf
    str 16 16 16 16
    dex 8(10) 8(10) 8(10) 8(10)
    con 18 20 18 17
    int 8(10) 8(10) 8(10) 8(10)
    wis 10 10 10 13 (for cleric dilly)
    cha 8 8 8 8


    nothing is exceptionally low... tomes are more common now, so a couple +2s would easily bring everything to no lower than 10.

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  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Jugg's have manyshot. Many (but not all) don't use xbows at all oh? hmm. i havn't played in a few months. i thought the jugg was the arti equivalent of the Tukaw. i must be thinking of something else. fascinating. i'd still be taken aback if a Jugg couldn't trap or use UMD.
    The Sithali, King of Burst DPS (12Mnk/6Rgr/2Ftr) build doesn't put down the bow. really? link please. no offense, but as someone who has played SEVERAL AA's, and is friends with one i highly respect ...i'll believe it's better when i see it. you have, however, peke'd my interest.
    Tulkaw's has nothing to do with a defensive shiradi sorc build. i never said anything about a tukaw using shiradi... i was merely mentioning the Tukaw as an atypical arcane build that is actually highly effective.

    Sometimes pushing a class means stepping outside what is typically expected for that class.
    not sometimes. always. but stepping outside the expected doesn't mean forget your roots. ;-)

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  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    not sometimes. always. but stepping outside the expected doesn't mean forget your roots. ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Symerith View Post
    A lot information found on the forums is wrong.
    #1: Arcane Archers lack in terms of DPS - False: Well built and well played AAs can rival in terms of DPS with any other melee build.
    #2: Arcane Archers need to specialize for TWF - False: You do not need to put down the bow when Manyshot and 10kstar is on timer, even for ki generation thanks to Enlightment.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nk-6Rgr-2Ftr)?

    The guy solo's raids for fun.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    I believe that there are players that in fact branch out to be able to cover more than one thing. These players and their toons are generally looked down upon in pug settings. Not always for sure, but certianly a majority of the time.
    I have to say, this is the 180' opposite of what I have seen. The only time I have ever seen a 'spork' looked down upon, as you say, is when they fail to fill the roles that they are attempting to. Far, far, far more often I see people who are competent at filling multiple party roles having heaps of accolades laid upon them.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    so does my AA friend. but definitely thanks for the link. i'll check it out tomorrow when i'm awake. g'night.

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  14. #354
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Whatever high ground you may have thought you had on the name calling... you lost it all right there.
    And as surprisingly as it may seem, I am fine with that.

    I merely stated the fact that the people I play with in game have a better comprehension on the nature of mutual expectation then what some of the people who have posted in this topic express to posses. If you find that to be name calling, then such is, what it is.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    My stance is, its your character build it how you want, but if people ask for certain things and you know that your character has no chance of doing that task don't join. Sometimes people get annoyed at lfms asking for something specific, or people assuming that a class icon means that a character must be able to play a certain role.

    I don't have much experience with rogues yet but it does look like its not that heavy an investment to be able to do traps but if people don't want to do that then fine I guess. But you do have to look at peoples reasoning as to why they don't. I know that there are some people who do things like that and a major factor in their motivation is to annoy people. And they go out of their way to join groups who want a trapper just so they can drop the bomb shell, hoping for some drama.
    The point of this discussion has nothing to do with people joining groups they shouldn't. If you read the thread no one proposes that. The discussion is simply that some people believe that a player should build the character that is fun for them and not be "beholden" to class stereotypes. Other people believe that there is no reason why a player would create a Rogue or Cleric / FvS build without the ability to trap or heal groups (respectively) unless they were purposefully trying to create a gimp character.

    You seem to be of the latter view with your comment that its "not that heavy an investment" to be able to trap. What if I said to someone creating a pure DPS fighter that its "not that heavy an investment" to be able to tank so they are obliged to have that ability? And then you go on to suppose that people who don't play by the class stereotype must be doing so to create drama. Really? Don't you think that maybe people just think of a character concept they want to try and aren't really concerned with what other people think because its their character? Karavek makes the point that someone creating a thief acrobat has no reason to use Int - so why should he just to satisfy other peoples' demand that every rogue should be able to trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    I see the current attempt to derail the focus on the gimpiness of those who cant be bothered to look after themselves has once again turned to the classic strawman of a rogue who cant do traps as if that is some form of sin. This may surprise some but a thief acrobat has no real need to put even a point into int at character creation if their focus is on being an agile staff fighting warrior.
    OF COURSE a person shouldn't join a group requesting a certain thing if they can't provide that. But again, no one in this discussion has said otherwise.

  16. #356
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    The point of this discussion has nothing to do with people joining groups they shouldn't. If you read the thread no one proposes that.
    Did you read all posts? I at least propose that and SirValentine, too. BYOH expects self sufficiency. If you join, and your toon cannot keep up (which you should know before joining), then don't complain, instead keep out of those groups. Even with 4 clr joining don't complain. Adhere to LFMs text or stay out.

    That goes both ways.

    Further discussions boil down to: I do whatever I want, shut up. Okay, do it but accept others doing the same. You won't convince any vet or person, who just went fine with whatever build they have and completed quests, that something else will be the only way to build a character.

    @taurean
    If a random pug filling slowly had the same goal like your guild ee group then you had a point. But first you set guildrun = random pug, which is never comparable. Guilds know each other very well. In random pugs you have to select and ask every little thing. Then, you know the content very well. Random pugs not so much maybe. All in all pugs tend to fill a stereotype tactic and therefor rely on common roles.

    Even with fixed roles you can complete FoT, you have to use a strategy accordingl to the group. And finally, why would time be a factor for every player in DDO? Some people do one raid per evening, some play 12h some play only few.... again general playstyle assumed for everybody.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 07-29-2013 at 02:42 AM.
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  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The point of this discussion has nothing to do with people joining groups they shouldn't. If you read the thread no one proposes that. The discussion is simply that some people believe that a player should build the character that is fun for them and not be "beholden" to class stereotypes. Other people believe that there is no reason why a player would create a Rogue or Cleric / FvS build without the ability to trap or heal groups (respectively) unless they were purposefully trying to create a gimp character.

    You seem to be of the latter view with your comment that its "not that heavy an investment" to be able to trap. What if I said to someone creating a pure DPS fighter that its "not that heavy an investment" to be able to tank so they are obliged to have that ability? And then you go on to suppose that people who don't play by the class stereotype must be doing so to create drama. Really? Don't you think that maybe people just think of a character concept they want to try and aren't really concerned with what other people think because its their character? Karavek makes the point that someone creating a thief acrobat has no reason to use Int - so why should he just to satisfy other peoples' demand that every rogue should be able to trap?



    OF COURSE a person shouldn't join a group requesting a certain thing if they can't provide that. But again, no one in this discussion has said otherwise.
    You seem to have missed the parts where I said its your character build it how you want....the reference to trapping was part of how I would build a rogue or arti..........I can help by adding extra xp cool. Someone else doesn't want to do that fine. I see a lot of rogues doing great in dps/kills, most of them can traps though some can't. I see the value of rogues who can't do traps, they can help kill stuff.

    I see a lot of nit picking and trying to lump people into certain groups in this thread......I don't know if some are doing it just for the sake of it.

    Other people have talked about those who join lfms in the knowledge that they do not meet the requirements, not just me....and this thread is about BYOH so it seems to me that it is relevant.


    I don't understand what vint said about how he thinks rogues who join BYOH lfms and can't trap shouldn't be in there........the requirements was for BYOH not trapping.

    For example I have a friend and we tr together and he builds a rogue who can't trap...... thats fine......if I so badly want that trap xp I can splash rogue and arti into my own character. I think the only time I personally would make a rogue or arti who cannot do traps is if its a build im going to be staying in and playing for a long time at cap.......it its just for a tr life, or to play for a while I will invest in the trapping skills. But thats what I think, and what I value im not going to force it onto someone else. Though I would get annoyed at my friend if at anypoint we are running a quest and he starts to moan about missing out of trap bonus xp..............

  18. #358
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    @taurean
    If a random pug filling slowly had the same goal like your guild ee group then you had a point. But first you set guildrun = random pug, which is never comparable. Guilds know each other very well. In random pugs you have to select and ask every little thing. Then, you know the content very well. Random pugs not so much maybe. All in all pugs tend to fill a stereotype tactic and therefor rely on common roles.

    Even with fixed roles you can complete FoT, you have to use a strategy accordingl to the group. And finally, why would time be a factor for every player in DDO? Some people do one raid per evening, some play 12h some play only few.... again general playstyle assumed for everybody.
    These are interesting points for sure.

    We do know each other well enough to efficiently shortman when running together. Yet the goals aren't much different I don't think. When I open my lfm's up to pugs they are looking for loot as well. And everyone appreciates a fast, problem free, completion. Yet I've noticed that when I pug content, I can accomplish a similar thing depending on whether or not the group follows directions.

    Time is always a factor I'd say. Namely because the difference, in FOT for example, between a 17 min run and a 60+ min run is gigantic. Not merely in terms of time spent. Resource usage factors in as well.

    Truly there are players that don't care about either of these things. And while I don't think there is anything wrong with an alternate playstyle I'll actively avoid ones that cost me too much in terms of time, resource use, and patience.

    The know your role types are welcome to play that way. They are not welcome to tell me how to play. And they can read my posted lfm's and stay away. Everyone is happier...
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  19. #359
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Time is always a factor I'd say. Namely because the difference, in FOT for example, between a 17 min run and a 60+ min run is gigantic. Not merely in terms of time spent. Resource usage factors in as well.
    That is correct. But only experienced players might think economically. Some people value a general completion or the chance therefor higher than ressources.

    Natural evaluation I think. Guildgroups containing of roles, tied to their one thing, complete as fast as you do. If the level of game knowledge is similar.

    Another thing is ee. Random ee pugs fill slowly on Orien as well. Channel groups fill fast or aren't even advertised publicly. I see many reasons, why an LFM wouldn't fill fast but on the context of this thread it is not tied to self sufficiency. More often it is uncertainty about the own potential.

    I state that self sufficiency means nothing if you don't have a learning curve. You will die as a Juggernaut as you will as a Paladin if you do not know, why and how you establish self sufficency (when do you use the scroll, what scroll will you use, maybe just a buff to prevent more dmg, withdrawing from sources, which maintain a concentration check on you, which potions to get, HoT effect or SF pot.....). Hence the OP complaining about bleeding to death in a BYOH group .

    Else I agree with you.
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  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something?
    No, and no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    Lost count of how many "BYOH" groups I've joined with my Battle Cleric that could not have survived the quest without healing from me.

    Don't blame the cleric for not healing, blame everyone else for not understanding BYOH.

    OTOH, in a good, decent group, of very self-reliant people, switching over to healing during big boss fights is a pleasure !!!

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