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  1. #321
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    Any given class icon has certain capabilities associated with it. Most players see them that way, and insisting that they shouldn't is like asking water to not be wet. Personally, I don't care how you build your toon; I only ask that if you are unable/unwilling to do something represented by your class icon, have the courtesy to say so up front instead of being a deceitful, selfish, self-righteous drama queen spouting, "Well, you shouldn't have assumed."

    Because really, that is all that combination is about.
    Create a toon that cannot perform one or more associated class activities.
    Keep that limitation a secret until someone asks you to perform such activity in quest.
    When confronted with incredulity, reply with some asinine ASS-U-ME comment.
    Come to forum and decry the bigotry and enslavement of your poor, victimized class.
    Keep stirring for a lovely pot of DRAMA.

    I know this doesn't apply to everyone. This doesn't even apply to most, but for the one(s) it does apply to, I see what you are doing. I am thankful for the forum entertainment.
    I am also thankful that I have never met you in party.

    (and yes, I know I am contributing to the playacting in this thread)
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  2. #322
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    i'm actually not even sure what you're trying to advocate at this point. people in general expect certain class icons to be capable of doing certain things... rogue or arti icon is looked to for trapping and unlocking duties, with divines- people hope that there might be some healing in dire situations, melee characters are expected to wade into the thick of things and swing their weapon of choice, and arcanes are expected to rain death and destruction, possibly a dash of CC, and hopefully a haste or two here and there... if they can do other stuff above and beyond -- that's AWESOME... but people tend to roll their eyes and snort if you CAN'T fill the basic expected roll associated with the visible icon. tack on a /ignore name if the person then says "well, i don't WANT to play that way." why... WHY don't you want to live up to your full potential? WHY do you want to limit yourself??? push the envelope. go for broke. HAVE IT ALL.

    i would think it would be a lonely game for them when everyone has them on ignore.
    You have to look at actual pugs. Not just the “knowledgeable” here than can turn any gimp into a beast.

    What about the typical pugger that builds a pure half orc barb. If they do not have access to SF pots, how do you expect them to self-heal? If your answer is that the “healer” should do it, then you are wrong as we are having a debate over BYOH groups. If you have/make a toon that cannot self-heal, do not join BYOH groups. That seems simple enough.

    As for trappers, if they join a BYOH, and are not capable of doing traps, they will be booted as soon as possible no matter if they lead the kill count. They are still costing me 15% xp by not trapping. XP means more to me than hurting someone’s feelings. If people want to play garbage toons and do not care about bringing their A game and getting max xp/minute, I don’t need em.
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  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    XP means more to me than hurting someone’s feelings.
    Wow. What server are you on again?
    Last edited by HAL; 07-28-2013 at 02:54 PM.

  4. #324
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    why in God's name would anyone not build a character to the full potential of it's class symbol?
    You can build a pure barbarian half orc with 300 strength that is always FB and does 10 trillion damage a swing. It won’t matter what he does if he is dead in someone’s backpack because he could not evade a trap, could not make a check on hold, or did not have a way to heal himself when the healer was out of mana.

    Go ahead and promote maxing out the DPS on a toon. You will soon see that it is not that great if you only have your max strength to rely on when you need a heal.
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  5. #325
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Wow. What server are you on again?
    Thelanis.

    That may have sounded rough, but I am sick of dead beats that join BYOH groups and laugh when they die. I am not an enabler and cannot be bothered if these people hate me or not. They are wasting the parties time and xp. Maybe they should go back to the drawing board and figure out if it is a bad build or they are just an idiot that does not know how to play.

    Play however you like, but don’t try to weasel in on a byoh run and be worthless. Maybe it is a good thing if they hate me. Maybe they would remember the Flabby name and would avoid all groups I am in.

    If you cannot heal yourself, don’t join a BYOH group. Is this too hard to understand?
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  6. #326
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    You have to look at actual pugs. Not just the “knowledgeable” here than can turn any gimp into a beast.

    What about the typical pugger that builds a pure half orc barb. If they do not have access to SF pots, how do you expect them to self-heal? If your answer is that the “healer” should do it, then you are wrong as we are having a debate over BYOH groups. If you have/make a toon that cannot self-heal, do not join BYOH groups. That seems simple enough.
    SF pots aren't needed in a lot of heroic quests, even on elite. that half orc barb can still do fine if he knows when to engage in battle and use csw pots. those SF pots may be able to keep you alive, but they should be emergency button use only. drinking SF pots in place of csw pots keeps you behind the party and your dps and saves are reduced enough to matter. it makes more sense to let the others in the group grab the agro first, or if a caster is CCing, to wait before attacking. this also depends on how zergy the group is, soloing sides or the quest is more straightforward pretty much keeping the party together. a character that relies on pots to be self sufficient and cant rely or expect others to help in heals has to use their head instead of trying to get the most kills or show off how uber they think they are. a player that bum rushes into a mob fight is going to waste more resources than necessary on themselves and potentially cause more of a burden on the party or cost that party that 10% bonus xp that some care about.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Thelanis.

    That may have sounded rough, but I am sick of dead beats that join BYOH groups and laugh when they die. I am not an enabler and cannot be bothered if these people hate me or not. They are wasting the parties time and xp. Maybe they should go back to the drawing board and figure out if it is a bad build or they are just an idiot that does not know how to play.

    Play however you like, but don’t try to weasel in on a byoh run and be worthless. Maybe it is a good thing if they hate me. Maybe they would remember the Flabby name and would avoid all groups I am in.

    If you cannot heal yourself, don’t join a BYOH group. Is this too hard to understand?
    Well, you were talking about trappers not healing yourself. And on that line I'm curious:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    As for trappers, if they join a BYOH, and are not capable of doing traps, they will be booted as soon as possible no matter if they lead the kill count.
    When you have trappers in your PUG, does the group wait for the trapper to search for and disable the traps or does the group run past the traps to actually do the quest and leave the trapper behind to do the trap?

  8. #328
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    You can build a pure barbarian half orc with 300 strength that is always FB and does 10 trillion damage a swing. It won’t matter what he does if he is dead in someone’s backpack because he could not evade a trap, could not make a check on hold, or did not have a way to heal himself when the healer was out of mana.

    Go ahead and promote maxing out the DPS on a toon. You will soon see that it is not that great if you only have your max strength to rely on when you need a heal.
    im assuming you are talking in general because my barbarian is built for dumb dumb dps. I build all my melee characters like that, except my ranger who is more of a support character but can still dish out very good dps. I am a firm believer of kill or be killed. the quicker and more damage you do to a mob, the less healing you will need. of course, you still need to know how to be self sufficient. if its just with pots, when bad moments happen, you have to be good at knowing your limits and being able to pot up in all types of situations. if you cant pot up to stay alive, than you need to take a step back and see what the problem is in order to fix it.

  9. #329
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    because if they focus on something else, to the exclusion of what their class is known for, they aren't living up to the full potential their class can bring to the table, thus, they are gimped.

    sorry. *shrug*

    I don't believe that's the case though. I believe that there are players that in fact branch out to be able to cover more than one thing. These players and their toons are generally looked down upon in pug settings. Not always for sure, but certianly a majority of the time.

    The interesting part about where the class/role players and self sufficients and where they collide is end game. Our guild runs EE content with what you allude to as 'gimped.' In the time we see one lfm fill for the class/role people, we've done the exact same content at least 3 times while farming. I think the current record if I recall correctly was 5 runs of EH FOT for example with our 'gimped' toons while commenting to each other that an lfm was still sitting there hoping to find Arcanes and Divines.

    On the heroic side I recently finished my stacking up my Cleric's third PL Cleric. He's always been more than capable and willing to heal others. Just not exclusively. And that's true for the 2 pure Cleric lives, the divine caster experimental life, and his last tr through heroic as a 17clr/2barb/1fighter. Funny stuff really, when you see how many people cannot handle having a cleric around capable of killing things themselves. It was quite an amusing experiment socially, opening up lfm's and seeing how it goes. I fear for the general gaming population when I tr him again to go with a build I like better for EE's which will either be 17clr/2monk/1druid or 17clr/2pally/1monk. Haven't made up my mind just yet. But when I do, hilarity will ensue as the class/role players spaz out while I level him with open lfm's. Just as they did when he was a pure Cleric and the party was filled while they were still applying to join. Just as they did when my Cleric used something other than a healing spell, amidst using healing spells. And just as they whined up a storm when I one/two shotted most mobs until heroic cap with deathnips, while keeping the party healed.
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-28-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    You have to look at actual pugs. Not just the “knowledgeable” here than can turn any gimp into a beast.

    What about the typical pugger that builds a pure half orc barb. If they do not have access to SF pots, how do you expect them to self-heal? If your answer is that the “healer” should do it, then you are wrong as we are having a debate over BYOH groups. If you have/make a toon that cannot self-heal, do not join BYOH groups. That seems simple enough.

    As for trappers, if they join a BYOH, and are not capable of doing traps, they will be booted as soon as possible no matter if they lead the kill count. They are still costing me 15% xp by not trapping. XP means more to me than hurting someone’s feelings. If people want to play garbage toons and do not care about bringing their A game and getting max xp/minute, I don’t need em.
    Actually the only one costing you that trap xp is you because if you value it so highly you should take personal responsbility and have the ability to do so always built into your toon no matter the over all class you may be interested in.

    This is especially true if you think doing something to hurt someones feelings as you put it, ie in game harrassment/griefing is ever acceptable. If there is anything that would provoke such behavrior which is clearly against the terms you agreed to by playing on the game, then you should be able to grasp you outright dont belong on an MMO if you have such self control issues.

    In other words if you cant play nice with others dont play with others at all for any reason at any time. The same goes for all those who think harrassing divine players in game is ever acceptable. And yes sending unknown players random invites, or PM them over and over to join their group and iif they wont are then PMed how bad a player they are, is the one gulty of violation of the games terms of use and forfeit any right to be treated civilly or with respect and truly warrant being banned from the game.

    Id give specific examples I have seen of this upheld in game but its against the rules to display screen caps of GM dialogue.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    You can build a pure barbarian half orc with 300 strength that is always FB and does 10 trillion damage a swing. It won’t matter what he does if he is dead in someone’s backpack because he could not evade a trap, could not make a check on hold, or did not have a way to heal himself when the healer was out of mana.
    if the barb is dead and riding in someone's backpack... OVAR 9000 damage regardless... they aren't living up to their full potential, now, are they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Go ahead and promote maxing out the DPS on a toon. You will soon see that it is not that great if you only have your max strength to rely on when you need a heal.
    i did no such thing

    DPS ain't the have-all end-all of this game cupcake, and the sooner you, and others like you, figure that out, the happier the rest of us will be

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  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Any given class icon has certain capabilities associated with it. Most players see them that way, and insisting that they shouldn't is like asking water to not be wet. Personally, I don't care how you build your toon; I only ask that if you are unable/unwilling to do something represented by your class icon, have the courtesy to say so up front instead of being a deceitful, selfish, self-righteous drama queen spouting, "Well, you shouldn't have assumed."
    IME in-game, that's how most people are, fortunately.

    I actually find myself right now volunteering disclaimers on occasion even with a paladin as class icon because my Cha and spell-casting are not what one would normally expect from a paladin of my level. It doesn't hurt me any.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    because if they focus on something else, to the exclusion of what their class is known for, they aren't living up to the full potential their class can bring to the table, thus, they are gimped.

    sorry. *shrug*
    Healers still heal, they don't just make it the primary focus... so the word "exclusion* really doesn't aply.

    As far as living up to stereotypes about your class:

    Arti's are about cross bows and rune arms... so the jugg guild is gimp.
    Arcane archer is a ranger PRE, so Monkcher... gimp
    Arcane's that dump DC focus on survival and take shiradi... gimp.

    The only way your argument works is if you take the stance the healer isn't even healing themselves.

  14. #334
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The only way your argument works is if you take the stance the healer isn't even healing themselves.
    LOL.. Been there, Seen that.

    Anyway, Wonderful discussion, I sincerely loved how the same group of people who making a fuss about how a ranger should be able to heal themselves and belittling the 2K HP barb who did not have heal amp, have turned full circle to say that they should be allowed to build whatever moronic gimp they want to build.

    Thankfully, in game, I play with a better cut of people then that, people who know that if they place expectations on others that expectations equally get placed upon them, and our goal as players and friends is help support and lift each other up so that we can not only continue to meet but to exceed the expectations we have of each other for a better more enjoyable game for everyone we get involved with.

    To my friends in game, you know who you are, and I want to say, I hope we never stop helping each other building each other up, and giving advice and assistance on how to make for better toons overall. A sincere thank you to you all.

    To the people on the forums, you are right, I have no control of the build you bring into my group, but, I do control if I want to run with you and no matter how many words you waste on this forum about how you should be allowed to make gimps and play the way you want, when you join a group, you will be judged, you will be measured, and if you are found wanting, you will not welcome back.

    With that, I bid you all good game.

  15. #335
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Who said they were doing that? Maybe you don't realize that this thread has strayed from the topic. And I agree that it probably should not have, but we are not talking about that.
    Oh well.......................I see a lot of people who where agreeing on something are now heavily opposed to each other now that they have *found* something to disagree on. Its an interesting debate.....getting kinda heated and personal is some cases, but im suppose to like drama anyway.

    My stance is, its your character build it how you want, but if people ask for certain things and you know that your character has no chance of doing that task don't join. Sometimes people get annoyed at lfms asking for something specific, or people assuming that a class icon means that a character must be able to play a certain role.

    I don't have much experience with rogues yet but it does look like its not that heavy an investment to be able to do traps but if people don't want to do that then fine I guess. But you do have to look at peoples reasoning as to why they don't. I know that there are some people who do things like that and a major factor in their motivation is to annoy people. And they go out of their way to join groups who want a trapper just so they can drop the bomb shell, hoping for some drama.

    I know of full rangers who get a kick out of not slotting resists and fom, They don't need it because they have items/ship buffs, there are not that many spell that are more useful in the spell book, and its not ignorance they know how useful those spells are but they just love it when people ask for then they can say sorry its not slotted.

    Those are just some examples, how do I know that this is their attitude? Because ive heard them gloating about it, yes I know that there are people who have valid reasons, or who just don't know.....but those people who deliberately do things just to annoy people or make a run harder, have less xp.......I don't really get them. If there's an lfm that appears elitist or silly to me I just don't join.

    Anyway I less often just assume things anymore based off of class icon and break down of different class icons, if I require something specific I will ask and not just assume.

    When I make characters I do want to have stuff thats not just useful to my own glory but the group as well depending on how heavy an investment it is. Im wanting to tr one of my characters into an arti build.........traps will be something I will be aiming at. I do have a bit of trepidation though because while I do know the location of a lot of trap boxs I don't know them all. earlier in this thread someone talked about a young FS who has getting abused even though he was really trying his best. I see a lot of people get really impatient with trappers, to me the trappers in these cases where really trying and the time lost wasn't that big but some people just expect clockwork and inside and out knowledge....no these where not TR only, know it, or whatever lfms.

    I guess what all this boils down to is attitude..........this is after all a game and not RL we have enough of all that **** peoples egos, people in a rush....time is money!!! to deal with in RL.........I just hope to have less of that in a game.

  16. #336
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Read this again.



    Look at that again, "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" but see, the main issue here is that everyone that puts up a BYOH LFM does.

    See the whole point is, that the very existence of a BYOH LFM is players expecting a barb (and everyone else) to be able to heal themselves.

    So yes, the first line does contradict the second one, if NO ONE automatically expected a barb to be able to heal themselves they would never expect a Barb to ever join a BYOH LFM.
    You don't seem to want a discussion. Instead you just want to go on about a bit of semantics.

    I'll try to make it clearer.

    How about; most people don't expect any random Barbarian to be able to self-heal well. However, people who put up BYOH LFMs do expect any Barbarian trying to join to be able to play well enough that he can take care of his own self-healing.

    Is that clearer?

    Remember, any Barbarian has access to healing pots and does not have to play in a manner that gets them the aggro of more than they can handle.

  17. #337
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    When you have trappers in your PUG, does the group wait for the trapper to search for and disable the traps or does the group run past the traps to actually do the quest and leave the trapper behind to do the trap?
    Usually we run through them. Depending on the quest and the number of people we have, sometimes we will have a box breaker as well. I am not against doing this as long as the party runs smooth and gets fast xp.
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  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Healers still heal, they don't just make it the primary focus... so the word "exclusion* really doesn't apply except for the healers that, you know... patently refuse to heal anyone.. at all... ever?

    As far as living up to stereotypes about your class:

    Arti's are about cross bows and rune arms... so the jugg guild is gimp. nope. that's pushing the envelope of what the class is capable of. a Jugg isn't gimp unless it also doesn't even pack a single crossbow (which it is proficient in, afterall) for those times he/she needs ranged, and/or it's completely unable to disable most standard traps.

    Arcane archer is a ranger PRE, so Monkcher... gimp an AA is only gimp if it doesn't put down the bow and fight while manyshot/10K stars is on cooldown. again, this is pushing the envelope.

    Arcane's that dump DC focus on survival and take shiradi... gimp some people would say that any arcane that doesn't have at least 45-50 DC on death/CC spells is gimp, but as long as there are Tukaws in the world... no. (oh hey, and guess what... Tukaw build can do traps!)

    The only way your argument works is if you take the stance the healer isn't even healing themselves. i've seen a few of those...
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  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    if the barb is dead and riding in someone's backpack... OVAR 9000 damage regardless... they aren't living up to their full potential, now, are they?



    i did no such thing

    DPS ain't the have-all end-all of this game cupcake, and the sooner you, and others like you, figure that out, the happier the rest of us will be
    What is a barbs? Full potential? I am unsure after reading your earlier post

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    why in God's name would anyone not build a character to the full potential of it's class symbol?
    What is the full potential of a barb in your opinion? I am sure that you are a talented player, and could make a decent barb in no time. What I am interested in is what you would tell a brand new person?

    Dump con and invest in wisdom so you have better will saves?
    Dump str and max dex for a better reflex save?
    Dump con and str and put it all in cha to build umd?

    I am a firm believer that it is not the icon that determines what you get out of a party. It is the person behind the keyboard. A skilled player can turn any abortion of a toon into something decent.

    Lastly, I could care less about DPS. I do not boot the player with the least kills after a mission. As long as everyone contributes to a certain extent, we will continue to fly thru quests.
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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    In other words if you cant play nice with others dont play with others at all for any reason at any time.
    This is a two way street. If a person cannot bring their own heals, they are instigating the problem before it even begins. Remember, we are talking of BYOH groups here.

    If a person clicks the LFM knowing that they cannot heal themselves they are starting the trouble. Maybe you should have a talk to the instigators and not the person that calls them out on it.

    I should note that I never tell people that I will break their kneecaps or threaten them in a way that is bad. I simply tell them to kick mud, they are not wanted.
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