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  1. #301
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    so whats all this talk about barbarian and expecting them to be able to self heal, but in a BYOH they are expected to be able to self heal? theres multiple meanings depending on how its used in a sentence. is this a tomatoE or tomUHto kind of thing?

    lets not limit it to barbs and extend it to all classes because in BYOH or any kind of group I see them all having trouble staying healed up when there is no nanny sometimes. less so for divine, PMs, bards but I see them struggling from time to time too. theres too much emphasis on class icon and not enough on player skill and knowledge. once you can get past the cover and get to the real issue than you guys can have a solid discussion.

  2. #302
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    First of all you CAN make a class that can't do what you call "all its basic functions". Maybe you meant it shouldn't be allowed?
    Read what I wrote. I meant what I said.

    The fact is that if a person chooses to focus on one aspect and "ignores" the rest because its not what he is trying to do with his character, that is his choice. Its like a person who in RL can sing really well. Everyone they meet says "You should do that for a living" and think its a shame that the person who can sing is instead a secretary. "What a waste - all that talent". But if that person doesn't want to sing for a living who is anyone else to try to force them?

    This is a game - people play it to have fun. Its not fun to have other people trying to tell you how to play. As I said, just because other people mistakenly believe that they can't play without these roles doesn't mean they have the right to try to force the couple of classes that can perform these roles to do that or judge them if they don't.
    HAL, I have always been an advocate for the new players, I mean, I always like to give players who get with this game a chance, from the rogues that are wearing plate, to the cleric that thinks hitting things with a mace is the only way to play. I do my best to build my character to overcome the potential deficiencies that new and inexperienced players can often bring to my group. From being able to raise, heal, kill, evade, and a slew of other things, that make me go above and beyond the limitations of what my class hands me so that we as a group can complete a quest.

    There are many times where I'll be in a group of friends, guildis, and sometimes just random puggers, and we get quests finished so fast that I barely even touch the repertoire of the abilities I have put into my build, other times I have had groups push every little trick I have to get to the end in one piece.

    I respect that to some of them, getting repetitively raised by (current life is Monk) is not fun, or maybe, we are laughing our butts off at the irony of the situation, who knows, that is based on the individual.

    But when I get someone who is self-claims to be a veteran player and they can't build a rogue as well as I could, and try to pass off that disregarding their abilities and being sub-par is acceptable, sorry, while they may not be newbs, they are noobs that just never have learned how to play.

    You really think, after several lives of rogue splashes and self-healing melee toons, that I am going to pat your head and tell you that after 6 years of playing your sub-par build is just ducky, maybe toss you a cookie on top of that? That will never happen.

  3. #303
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Ultimately I expect nothing from puggers. As soon as you think that it will be an easy run, you will bet up for disappointment.
    Ok. This I can understand. The BYOH is more a "Hope"then a concrete "Expectation". like I expect every quest to be -10% but Hope to get the +10% LOL.

  4. #304
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    wow. this thread is kinda messed up.

    *looks at the whole barbs and BYOH LFMs and all that ****... backs away slowly*


    *looks at the rogue argument instead*

    why in God's name would anyone not build a character to the full potential of it's class symbol? i really can't conceive of it, because my rogue has no trouble DPSing, and even leading the kill count on a semi-regular basis, sneaking, trapping, and he's self sufficient on top of all that due to wands and scrolls via UMD. and don't even blame that on the fact that he's 3rd life now. he's been that way since first life.

    and then there's my bard. i think really she goes above and beyond seeing as she has decent melee DPS. UMD and scroll mastery III, EE capable trapping ability, epics (old epic. even better now) capable sneaking ability, enough fascinate for EE, and a standing self-buffed intimidate of 57 to add a dash of spice. if someone can pull off HALF of that i'd be impressed. but if you are unable, due to how you built your toon, to do what your class icon is known for... i'm not so impressed.

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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I took pause by this, because anyone with basic understanding of analysis would tell you that you should only compare similar things, otherwise You're just "comparing apples to oranges"
    So...you are incapable of comparing, say, the DPS (or kill count, or how efficiently they completed sections of a multi-section map or CC DC or whatever) of a (Rogue, FvS, Monk, whatever) versus a Barbarian (or Wizard or whatever)? I'm glad I'm not.

    The slight differences between various class abilities are not at all some insurmountable obstacle to comparison when you consider that all the characters are EXACTLY THE SAME THING, and DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS. Adventurers, completing quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    When (Class A) joins, I am not going to compare what they do against what (Class H) or (Class X) can do, I am going to compare what they do against what I know (Class A) can do.
    I've never had (Class A) or (Class H) or (Class X) join any party I've ever been in. I've had (Characters A, H, and X), that had levels in various classes. And if they do things you don't know or don't expect people with levels in their class can do, that makes them failures? Even if they did it as well or better than someone with some other class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    In this regard, we will never agree.
    If you mean you will never take a character for what it *IS*, and only what YOU think it SHOULD be, then, yes, we will never agree.

    Hey, did you hear that Penguins are failures as birds because they can't fly, and obviously can't possibly swim, because only Fish do that?

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Read what I wrote. I meant what I said.
    Sorry, then I just didn't understand it.

    But when I get someone who is self-claims to be a veteran player and they can't build a rogue as well as I could, and try to pass off that disregarding their abilities and being sub-par is acceptable, sorry, while they may not be newbs, they are noobs that just never have learned how to play.[

    You really think, after several lives of rogue splashes and self-healing melee toons, that I am going to pat your head and tell you that after 6 years of playing your sub-par build is just ducky, maybe toss you a cookie on top of that? That will never happen.
    I think you're not understanding what I'm saying: I never said "a veteran player can't" build a rogue to trap or divine to heal. First, I never said vet and second I said maybe they don't want to. And that should be their choice. It doesn't matter if its "easy" or that you and many others think a class icon = "x role".

    And you (and certain others) keep talking as though I am taking this position because this is what I do. I have already stated in various threads that I have a dedicated Cleric Healer. Perhaps you and other people who assume that I'm talking about myself don't understand that a person can see another's POV. Like Men who write books supporting Women's Rights. You don't have to be / do something to understand it.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Sorry, then I just didn't understand it.



    I think you're not understanding what I'm saying: I never said "a veteran player can't" build a rogue to trap or divine to heal. First, I never said vet and second I said maybe they don't want to. And that should be their choice. It doesn't matter if its "easy" or that you and many others think a class icon = "x role".

    And you (and certain others) keep talking as though I am taking this position because this is what I do. I have already stated in various threads that I have a dedicated Cleric Healer. Perhaps you and other people who assume that I'm talking about myself don't understand that a person can see another's POV. Like Men who write books supporting Women's Rights. You don't have to be / do something to understand it.
    well if they don't want to trap or self heal what are they doing joining lfms that state......byoh......or trapper needed please? Thats fine if they don't want to do those things, but its not so great if they knowingly join a group asking for something kind of specific when they don't fit the requirements. Isn't it a moot point?

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    why in God's name would anyone not build a character to the full potential of it's class symbol?
    Because they want to play something more fun and more effective than a stereotype. And because a character is made up of far more than just a class symbol.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    and then there's my bard. i think really she goes above and beyond seeing as she has decent melee DPS. UMD and scroll mastery III, EE capable trapping ability, epics (old epic. even better now) capable sneaking ability, enough fascinate for EE, and a standing self-buffed intimidate of 57 to add a dash of spice. if someone can pull off HALF of that i'd be impressed. but if you are unable, due to how you built your toon, to do what your class icon is known for... i'm not so impressed.
    So...you built your Bard as you wanted, to do lots of awesome stuff. I approve. I'm assuming you find him effective, and fun to play, right?

    However, if I applied the same standard you just specified to your own character, then, "i'm not so impressed". Every gear slot, feat, class level, enhancement, ED abilites, that doesn't make you a better buffbot, because that's what your class icon is known for, is obviously "doing it wrong". A Bard who isn't the best possible buffbot they can be is equally wrong as a Cleric who isn't the best possible healbot they could be, or a Rogue who isn't the best possible trap monkey they can be.

    So, if you think your Bard is awesome, please extend the same courtesy to others who don't like being straight-jacketed into some preconception by the narrow-minded.

    Otherwise, if you want to condemn non-Healer Clerics or non-Trapper Rogues, please go re-roll your non-Buffbot Bard first, because it's exactly the same situation.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 07-28-2013 at 10:54 AM.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    well if they don't want to trap or self heal what are they doing joining lfms that state......byoh......or trapper needed please? Thats fine if they don't want to do those things, but its not so great if they knowingly join a group asking for something kind of specific when they don't fit the requirements. Isn't it a moot point?
    Who said they were doing that? Maybe you don't realize that this thread has strayed from the topic. And I agree that it probably should not have, but we are not talking about that.

  10. #310
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Who said they were doing that? Maybe you don't realize that this thread has strayed from the topic. And I agree that it probably should not have, but we are not talking about that.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by charononus View Post
    lol

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    ...If you mean you will never take a character for what it *IS*, and only what YOU think it SHOULD be, then, yes, we will never agree.
    so.... you wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised/annoyed/put off if someone with a rogue or arti icon joined and was unable and unwilling to do the traps? (i know most traps can be avoided, but not all, can, and some quests the extra bonus xp from doing the traps is more than worth it) or someone with a barb or fighter icon stood in the back of the group and didn't hit anything, just casted spells via scroll/wand/item? or someone showing a bard icon told you "no, sorry. i don't have enough fascinate or UMD to do job xyz. i put all my points into abc instead."

    phhht. tell me another one. that was funny.



    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Hey, did you hear that Penguins are failures as birds because they can't fly, and obviously can't possibly swim, because only Fish do that?
    that must mean bats and moths are birds, and a water boatman and a whale are fish. try again.


    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I think you're not understanding what I'm saying: I never said "a veteran player can't" build a rogue to trap or divine to heal. First, I never said vet and second I said maybe they don't want to. And that should be their choice. It doesn't matter if its "easy" or that you and many others think a class icon = "x role".

    And you (and certain others) keep talking as though I am taking this position because this is what I do. I have already stated in various threads that I have a dedicated Cleric Healer. Perhaps you and other people who assume that I'm talking about myself don't understand that a person can see another's POV. Like Men who write books supporting Women's Rights. You don't have to be / do something to understand it.
    i'm actually not even sure what you're trying to advocate at this point. people in general expect certain class icons to be capable of doing certain things... rogue or arti icon is looked to for trapping and unlocking duties, with divines- people hope that there might be some healing in dire situations, melee characters are expected to wade into the thick of things and swing their weapon of choice, and arcanes are expected to rain death and destruction, possibly a dash of CC, and hopefully a haste or two here and there... if they can do other stuff above and beyond -- that's AWESOME... but people tend to roll their eyes and snort if you CAN'T fill the basic expected roll associated with the visible icon. tack on a /ignore name if the person then says "well, i don't WANT to play that way." why... WHY don't you want to live up to your full potential? WHY do you want to limit yourself??? push the envelope. go for broke. HAVE IT ALL.

    i would think it would be a lonely game for them when everyone has them on ignore.

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  13. #313
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I refer some of you back to the post I made several pages back. I mentioned before also if there is going to be confusion what a icon generally tells people what that class can do, than people need to ask and tell the group what they can/cant/willing/not willing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    ever seen what happens when a rogue joins a group and wont disable traps or cant because they built a dps rogue that cant do traps? I did it once and made it to level 10. too much griefing and it just didn't make sense that my character couldn't disable traps. I did invest in lock picking. woot? ever looked at the lfm and saw a rogue/artificer looking for a trapper? what runs through your mind when you see that? do you join anyways?

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Because they want to play something more fun and more effective than a stereotype. And because a character is made up of far more than just a class symbol.



    So...you built your Bard as you wanted, to do lots of awesome stuff. I approve. I'm assuming you find him effective, and fun to play, right?

    However, if I applied the same standard you just specified to your own character, then, "i'm not so impressed". Every gear slot, feat, class level, enhancement, ED abilites, that doesn't make you a better buffbot, because that's what your class icon is known for, is obviously "doing it wrong". A Bard who isn't the best possible buffbot they can be is equally wrong as a Cleric who isn't the best possible healbot they could be, or a Rogue who isn't the best possible trap monkey they can be.

    So, if you think your Bard is awesome, please extend the same courtesy to others who don't like being straight-jacketed into some preconception by the narrow-minded.

    Otherwise, if you want to condemn non-Healer Clerics or non-Trapper Rogues, please go re-roll your non-Buffbot Bard first, because it's exactly the same situation.

    rofl this is so funny.

    despite how you're trying to paint this picture, it is not a black and white issue. i'm not talking about buff-bots, heal-bots, trap-bots.. etc.

    being an ANYTHING "bot" is just barely scratching the surface of the potential that each class brings to the table. i don't advocate anyone be a bot of any sort unless it's for learning purposes. (i heal-botted a little on my first divine life so i could learn the timing of my spells, THEN i added in melee and ranged, but by then i knew how long it took for my attack round to end and for my spell to go off so i could heal myself and others and no one died.)
    but each class has an ability it's know for, something the general populace expects to get at least some of. i'm NOT saying, nor would i ever even hint that, a cleric or FvS should be nothing more than a heal-bot (i've run a total of 3 divine lives now, trust me, i know. first life was a old-epic capable trapper AA FvS, second life was an AA clonk, third life is an evoker FvS with monk splash and stunning fist. trust me, i know), but if you have a divine icon, and you say "nope. i don't heal, ever." i don't care what else you are doing, you aren't living up to the full potential of the class. a well built well played divine rains death and destruction via spell or melee (or both), AND doesn't let the smart people die (sorry, even the best "healer" can't help those who are out of range, behind a pillar, or SUPERSQUISHY)... someone showing a rogue or an arti icon who claims "no, sorry. i can't trap." gets scorn, not praise, no matter what else they are capable of, especially when the OTHER rogue that joined the group can do all the same things just as well... and CAN get the trap. a bard icon who does nothing but stand in the back of the group and sing every 4-6 minutes, and cast haste and rage every 3 is so far away from living up to the potential of the class it makes me cry. but i'm pretty sure that even a certain dwarf i remember with his 8 bard/ 6 barb/6 fighter warchanter/frenzied berzerker/kensai could at least fascinate and throw a heal scroll if the s*** hit the fan


    don't be limited by your class icon? sure, fine. great. don't ignore it either.

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  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    so.... you wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised/annoyed/put off if someone with a rogue or arti icon joined and was unable and unwilling to do the traps?
    Nope. It happens often enough anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    (i know most traps can be avoided, but not all, can, and some quests the extra bonus xp from doing the traps is more than worth it)
    When it matters, I ASK, I don't assume.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    or someone with a barb or fighter icon stood in the back of the group and didn't hit anything, just casted spells via scroll/wand/item? or someone showing a bard icon told you "no, sorry. i don't have enough fascinate or UMD to do job xyz. i put all my points into abc instead."
    I don't CARE what their icon is. Is their actual contribution, of whatever sort, enough to make up for the dungeon scaling they cause? I don't want pikers. I prefer people who can contribute in multiple ways, as needed. But even a one-dimensional contribution is fine if it's effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    i'm actually not even sure what you're trying to advocate at this point. people in general expect certain class icons to be capable of doing certain things
    I can't speak for Hal, but I'm advocating that they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    why... WHY don't you want to live up to your full potential? WHY do you want to limit yourself??? push the envelope. go for broke. HAVE IT ALL.
    WHY? Opportunity cost, of course.

    Any character I make has only a finite number of stat points, feats, enhancement points, gear slots, etc.. There only is so much to go around. WHATEVER you build and gear for, you automatically are NOT building and gearing for OTHER things. By becoming better at one thing, you automatically are worse than you might have been at other things you could have used those resources for.

    It's up to the individual player to decide what they want to focus on, and how much they want to focus on it.

    I seriously don't understand you. The obvious bigots are obvious. They DO want everyone to limit themselves to their cookie-cutter little "expected roles". But here you are, CLAIMING you don't want the limits, and to have people push the envelope of their potential...then also condemning people who actually do so, because they pushed it outside of their "expected role".

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    rofl this is so funny.

    despite how you're trying to paint this picture, it is not a black and white issue. i'm not talking about buff-bots, heal-bots, trap-bots.. etc.

    being an ANYTHING "bot" is just barely scratching the surface of the potential that each class brings to the table. i don't advocate anyone be a bot of any sort unless it's for learning purposes. (i heal-botted a little on my first divine life so i could learn the timing of my spells, THEN i added in melee and ranged, but by then i knew how long it took for my attack round to end and for my spell to go off so i could heal myself and others and no one died.)
    but each class has an ability it's know for, something the general populace expects to get at least some of. i'm NOT saying, nor would i ever even hint that, a cleric or FvS should be nothing more than a heal-bot (i've run a total of 3 divine lives now, trust me, i know. first life was a old-epic capable trapper AA FvS, second life was an AA clonk, third life is an evoker FvS with monk splash and stunning fist. trust me, i know), but if you have a divine icon, and you say "nope. i don't heal, ever." i don't care what else you are doing, you aren't living up to the full potential of the class. a well built well played divine rains death and destruction via spell or melee (or both), AND doesn't let the smart people die (sorry, even the best "healer" can't help those who are out of range, behind a pillar, or SUPERSQUISHY)... someone showing a rogue or an arti icon who claims "no, sorry. i can't trap." gets scorn, not praise, no matter what else they are capable of, especially when the OTHER rogue that joined the group can do all the same things just as well... and CAN get the trap. a bard icon who does nothing but stand in the back of the group and sing every 4-6 minutes, and cast haste and rage every 3 is so far away from living up to the potential of the class it makes me cry. but i'm pretty sure that even a certain dwarf i remember with his 8 bard/ 6 barb/6 fighter warchanter/frenzied berzerker/kensai could at least fascinate and throw a heal scroll if the s*** hit the fan


    don't be limited by your class icon? sure, fine. great. don't ignore it either.
    Read the thread, there are plenty of people who already presented your position. Some of us still believe that a player should make his character how he wants and not be judged for it. Its a game and game = fun. Different people have fun in different ways.

    Those with your position and those with my position will just have to disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    i don't care what else you are doing, you aren't living up to the full potential of the class.
    <snip>
    gets scorn, not praise, no matter what else they are capable of
    Emphasis added.

    That's the attitude I disagree with, right there. You really don't care whether they are actually effective, just because they are doing something different than you think they should?

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    don't be limited by your class icon? sure, fine. great. don't ignore it either.
    Why not? It's just a little picture.

  18. #318
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    Default self sufficient

    Anyone that joins an LFM that says "BYOH" or "Be Self Sufficient" should NOT expect anyone in the party to heal them. Even if the other 5 players in the group are Clerics and Favored Souls. Start your own group and wait for a healer who wants to heal, if you cant follow the guidelines of someone else's LFM.

    In saying that I always try to heal others when they need it, even when not on one of my healers.
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    Default A little story about a rogue with no trap skill

    I see the current attempt to derail the focus on the gimpiness of those who cant be bothered to look after themselves has once again turned to the classic strawman of a rogue who cant do traps as if that is some form of sin. This may surprise some but a thief acrobat has no real need to put even a point into int at character creation if their focus is on being an agile staff fighting warrior.

    What so many seem to forget here is there is only 1! true universal role we all share in this game, we are all warriors doing battle against the tides of evil( and occasionally not which is why running with the devil though it offends me that we get no chance to fight against the enchantment that forces us, always tickles me pink when I get to slaughter good guys in the name of self defense.

    No matter class icon that is our only true goal in this game at all times, anything else is frankly a moot point that has no connection to anything else except player preconceptions and personal demands. I also always put 100% of any so called requirements that others feel should be held upon the one forming the group, IE if your going to lead groups you should be capable of dealing with traps yourself and keep the party healed as needed, rather then try to recruit someone else and force them into that position.

    As others have spelled out unless the trap truly is stopping the party, disabling it is a courtesy by the rogue to help the party with XP, but if the party is zerging every trap, the one possessing trapping skills be it a rogue or artee blend, has no reason to miss out on the actual fun gameplay of fighting just so the glory mongers can get some extra XPs.

    The fact is since year one we have been able to meta game our way through every trap, and the general consensus from the forums has always been do not make traps that will prvent a party from completion of any content and force trapping skills to be seen as a requirement to succeed. In other words disabling traps and the skill to do so is meant to be an option by design here in DDO. Thus building in that ability is as well.

    My 2nd character after my forum namesake on the long lost fernia server was a fighter rogue split, 4 fighter 6 rogue so his icon showed as rogue. THe rogue was entirely for evasion, and skill points for things like jump/tumble/umd/spot( to see hidden foes) and lock picks( if a door can be picked vs tracking downa key I prefer to do so) I had maxxed dex and str and had a solid con and wis and basi chr. My goal was a pure warrior who would be hard to be hurt by mystical or mundane attacks and that was the soul focus. Do keep in mind that in this era and for a long time it was pretty much a requirment to have absolute focus in the trap skills and max int, and the best at lvl gear to have any real reliable chance on elite dif traps as it was incredibly common for rogues who didnt max int, have the full enhancment line and top gear to blow a box in something like gwylans stand or and most amusingly back in the day the fire room in the end of STK I honestly can say during that first year I was never in a pug that I wasnt the only one carrying basic fire res pots from barrels and had evasion and dex enough along with wands for self healing to walk through taht room while the rest balked and burned and most would end up as soul stones I had to ferry across.

    So my 2nd character, frustrated by no one stopping for even well known traps that would typically kill them, was made to leave traps there to use against enemies and act as a tool to weed out those unworthy to proceed. Because if we are going to start calling people noob and gimp for personal veiws my own is if you cant walk through traps without fear your beyond gimp and in PnP would be left behind or outright killed by my rogue characters to avoid leaving a possible traitor behind.

    I recall parties growing frustrated when I wouldnt disarm traps when I was the only one with evasion among packs of gimp by their very nature barbs and fighters with no evasion nor gear to compensate for the lack there of. You see be it PnP or here in DDO ones personal success or failure is always that a personal matter. PnP may be played with groups, but well role played groups who have thier characters meet for the first time rather then the classic we all grew up together scenerio, especially if conflicting racial views like the classic iconic dwarf elf contempt for each will if people are truly in character rather then trying to make nice, will often see blows and killing of each other come to pass. Its the best and worst of PnP wrapped into one with the ultimate freedom to act as it feels right to act rather then what is best for the game progression.

    So while some want to say well ofcourse all rogues can and must do traps, they shouldnt, and honestly its one of the most cookie cutter things to promote. Sure for new players trap skills are nearly mandatory unless they keep DDO wiki open and have a map ready for each quest they enter and even then dds are they wont yet have the meta game awareness and twitch skills to trivialize the intended challenge of the quests design.

    The simple fact is while for new rogues trap skills make alot of sense to build in for alot of vets its not as in the oh so common tr zerg scene waiting around to disarm traps is just unacceptable slow down. the xp nothing more then another pointless optional to waste time on in their eyes. I personally do usually do traps on all my rogues these days but im more a dungeon crawler then zerger by nature. Likewise while a first life new player barb has need of a trapper to get safely through alot of content, a vet barb who should easily be capable of self healing from one of a myriad of ways will have no concern about traps due to meta game awareness.

    IE vet barbs and vet rogues can co exist easily, and newb ones may well have a need for each other as the first life rogue may well be forced to devote alot of their early resources to gear to tackle the toughest of traps.

    What it always boils down to newbs have needs that skilled dungeoneers will not have. What vets may have is preconceptions usually only even had because of some self deficiency within their own characters build.

    If I can walk through a trap why cant you my rogue would say, if I can cure myself why cant you my rggue would say, and when they would say well you cant solo that end room my rogue would say if I couldnt Id not of even come in here in the first place because batman never picks a fight he cant win ( Bane being the exception ofcourse, well and Deathstroke the terminator, but come on he is so scary its well scary.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I seriously don't understand you. The obvious bigots are obvious. They DO want everyone to limit themselves to their cookie-cutter little "expected roles". But here you are, CLAIMING you don't want the limits, and to have people push the envelope of their potential...then also condemning people who actually do so, because they pushed it outside of their "expected role".

    because if they focus on something else, to the exclusion of what their class is known for, they aren't living up to the full potential their class can bring to the table, thus, they are gimped.

    sorry. *shrug*

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