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  1. #281

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Think about it, anyone who makes a BYOH LFM is in fact expecting every class to heal themselves, (That includes the Barb class) so that would negate the "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" when by virtue of putting up an BYOH LFM that is exactly what people expect.

    I guess we could take the avenue that BYOH is really just elitist slang for No barbs, and then you be correct that there is no contradictions in expectation, however if someone posted a BYOH LFM with the expectation that a Barb would even be able to join, then yes, what you said would be a direct contradiction.
    You're conflating "all barbs" with "self-sufficient barbs." They are not the same thing. The person posting the BYOH LFM is expecting that only the subset of barbs that are self-sufficient will join their LFM.

    It's perfectly consistent and not a contradiction in any way. This really couldn't be simpler.

  2. #282
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Think about it, anyone who makes a BYOH LFM is in fact expecting every class to heal themselves, (That includes the Barb class) so that would negate the "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" when by virtue of putting up an BYOH LFM that is exactly what people expect.

    I guess we could take the avenue that BYOH is really just elitist slang for No barbs, and then you be correct that there is no contradictions in expectation, however if someone posted a BYOH LFM with the expectation that a Barb would even be able to join, then yes, what you said would be a direct contradiction.
    Really? You think Barbarians can't stay alive in battle without another player keeping them alive and healing themselves sufficiently to keep going? That they need another player to take care of them?

    No, I'm sorry, but your inability to create a self-sufficient barbarian doesn't mean they don't exist. So if a barbarian joins a BYOH LFM, then yes, he is expected to take care of himself, to be able to get through the quest as if no one can heal him.

    No one automatically expects a Barbarian to be able to heal himself unless he joins a BYOH LFM, in which case, yes they do expect him to heal himself, or at least not need another player to keep him alive.

    Because once again, a Barbarian can be self-sufficient if the player knows what he's doing. But it's not automatic, like say a Paladin or Ranger or Bard who can slot cure spells and use cure wands.

    But there is no reason a Barbarian or Fighter can't be self-sufficient except if the player can't figure out how to do it.

    I understand what you're trying to say, but you are wrong. A "non-healing class" in the hands of an inexperienced player does need another player to keep him alive. However, if you have any decent ability in grasping to DDO's mechanics (and yes, they are not that tough, I understood them quite intuitively when I first started playing), then even an inexperienced player can be self-sufficient even while playing a "non-healing" class. There are a ton of options and tools available for even a Barbarian to not have to rely on another player. However, it may indeed mean sacrificing dps for survivability at any given moment, if that's the hand he's dealt.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Change Rogue to Barb and trapping to healing, and see why this just became totally unacceptable.
    Why does it become totally unacceptable? I'm not talking about Barbarians, I'm talking about Rogues. If Turbine has created a class that has no other "raison d'etre" (reason to exist, simplistically), that has no bearing on any class that may have multiple focuses. The actual focus is that Rogues, like Clerics, have multiple roles that they can focus on. To state that is it "necessary" that they focus on a particular role is only because other classes can't. Certain players want to make it a "given" that the classes that have access to certain roles MUST perform those roles because they are not able to deal with the consequences if they don't.

    I think that instead of trying to force any player who chooses one of these classes to perform as expected by others, Turbine should rethink those classes that are not ABLE to function without those roles.

  4. #284
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Really? You think Barbarians can't stay alive in battle without another player keeping them alive
    After reading this, I can see, I never should have even bothered trying to have a discussion with you. I never said anything like this, and you trying to pass off that I did is just outright trolling. I had expected better of you, but, that's life, live and learn as it goes on.

    No, I'm sorry, but your inability to create a self-sufficient barbarian doesn't mean they don't exist.
    See, the reality is, my Barb could no fail Heal and Raise Scrolls to the point he could and did backup raid healing, but seeing this kind of response to these kinds of discussions is very typical of people when it finally dawns on them they can't defend their point, they retort to personal attacks fueled by ignorance.

    Not to be melodramatic or insulting, but learn a new trick pony.
    Last edited by Ungood; 07-28-2013 at 02:56 AM.

  5. #285
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Why does it become totally unacceptable? I'm not talking about Barbarians, I'm talking about Rogues.
    You're talking about people making gimp builds. Really, this is like the embodiment of all that is fail in this game.

    Added: The truth is HAL, thinking that you can make a class that can't do all it's basic functions, is wrong, it's sub-par, it akin to being in an off destiny for a major raid or not having boss-beaters. Even if thankfully people in the groups you join are so competent that they will never need to depend on your gaming ability or some of your classes signature features, it makes you look like an incompetent noob that simply won't learn how to play when you advocate that a class can dismiss it's full range of abilities because it takes "Planning and Resources" and what? Thinking is hard?

    Not to try and belittle you at all, but seriously, have you been playing nothing but Blue Bars where everything is handed to you on a silver platter so much so to the point that you can't figure out how to make a fully functional Rogue, or do you simply just have no clue how much effort and planning it takes to make a really self-healing melee.

    Anyway, in case no one told you this before, your build is a measure of your skill and investment as a player, when you join a group, you will be judged by what it can and can't do, based against what it should be able to do. How capable your build is denotes how much care you put into it, and the skill you have at building a decent toon, and when you show up with a class that can't even do all it's basic functions it makes you look like either you are clueless or apathetic, and while a clueless player can taught, the reality is neither makes you look good, and from my sampling people who enjoy BYOH tend to have less tolerance for sub-par builds, and a rouge that can't trap, is sub-par. A rogue, not only should you be able to hide, sneak, trap, search, and UMD, it should be able to kill mobs with the best of them, figuring out how to do all that is what divides the good players from the bad ones. Maybe these half-complete builds work in your static group or among friends, or solo, but then again, in those situations.. anything works.
    Last edited by Ungood; 07-28-2013 at 03:20 AM.

  6. #286
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I think that instead of trying to force any player who chooses one of these classes to perform as expected by others, Turbine should rethink those classes that are not ABLE to function without those roles.
    Wow, we agree on something. However, I doubt that we really agree.

  7. #287
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    I do understand that its difficult to make self sufficient pure fighters and barbs. Thats actually the reason I dont enjoy playing them, and would need to splash them with a UMD class tro at least be able to UMD heal scrolls (potions suck).

    Most BYOH groups I see these days only advertise as 'BYOH if no healer joins', which is understandable as divines are hard to find, and if healing is required, a hireling can sufficiently fill that role for most heroic elites.

    I have supported the idea of stronger healing potions which has been discussed a lot on these forums, but Turbine never seem to care about that. I've never actually used silver flame pots, but I'm sure they are very expensive which again makes using them less desirable than wands / scrolls.

    Several times when playing my FVS lives, I have had several barbarians demanding heals, but they were new players to the game so I healed them anyway, while commenting that if they kept demanding, I might simply not heal them at all.

    A stack of 100 heal scrolls only costs my 10k plat with maxed haggle on my rogue which is nothing by the end game.

  8. #288
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You're conflating "all barbs" with "self-sufficient barbs." They are not the same thing. The person posting the BYOH LFM is expecting that only the subset of barbs that are self-sufficient will join their LFM.

    It's perfectly consistent and not a contradiction in any way. This really couldn't be simpler.
    Actually, since you seem to be able to grasp the point of the discussion.

    It was never said "All barbs" only that "no one expects a barb to be self healing" which is false, because anyone who makes a BYOH LFM does exactly that.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    This kids is what happens when blue bar players try to make melee toons, we get Rouges that can't trap.
    Are you being serious? I exclusively play blue bar characters, and made a rogue because I liked the idea of trapping. I was fully sufficient at that and never had an issue with traps.

    I also eventually made that rogue into this:

    http://i.imgur.com/18jr4DC.jpg (and max dodge, blur, incorporeal).

    Hes virtually untouchable in Epic Hard, and can solo a lot of EH quests and has no problem with traps at all.

    Lots of blue bar players also make 2 rogue / 18 wizards that are very strong trappers with their INT bonus and insightful reflexes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It was never said "All barbs" only that "no one expects a barb to be self healing" which is false, because anyone who makes a BYOH LFM does exactly that.
    A barb with potions is a barb that can BYOH and valid for such LFMs. Thats all it takes.
    Last edited by DDOisFree; 07-28-2013 at 03:04 AM.

  10. #290

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Actually, since you seem to be able to grasp the point of the discussion.

    It was never said "All barbs" only that "no one expects a barb to be self healing" which is false, because anyone who makes a BYOH LFM does exactly that.
    No one expects a random barb to be self-healing.

    Everyone expects a barb who joins a BYOH LFM to be self-healing.

    There is no contradiction whatsoever here.

    (And, of course, SF pots magically make dependent barbs self-sufficient.)

  11. #291
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    No one expects a random barb to be self-healing.

    Everyone expects a barb who joins a BYOH LFM to be self-healing.

    There is no contradiction whatsoever here.
    Read this again.

    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself.

    However, people do expect a Barb who joins a BYOH group to be able to heal himself
    Look at that again, "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" but see, the main issue here is that everyone that puts up a BYOH LFM does.

    See the whole point is, that the very existence of a BYOH LFM is players expecting a barb (and everyone else) to be able to heal themselves.

    So yes, the first line does contradict the second one, if NO ONE automatically expected a barb to be able to heal themselves they would never expect a Barb to ever join a BYOH LFM.

  12. #292
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Are you being serious?
    Not really, I was being a sarcastic ass, because this discussion is wearing on me.

    Added: Read my edit.

    Lots of blue bar players also make 2 rogue / 18 wizards that are very strong trappers with their INT bonus and insightful reflexes.
    Yah got a TR Wiz/Rogue myself, love the split and class, just total fun to play. Dis WF the first life, PM the second, thinking of maybe WF again for a 3rd life. Not sure on that however.
    Last edited by Ungood; 07-28-2013 at 03:52 AM.

  13. #293
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Read this again.



    Look at that again, "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" but see, the main issue here is that everyone that puts up a BYOH LFM does.

    See the whole point is, that the very existence of a BYOH LFM is players expecting a barb (and everyone else) to be able to heal themselves.

    So yes, the first line does contradict the second one, if NO ONE automatically expected a barb to be able to heal themselves they would never expect a Barb to ever join a BYOH LFM.
    Used to join byoh on my barb, I just chugged sf pots as needed. I don't assume any barb can do that from the favor reqs but I assume that one that joins a byoh run can.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Look at that again, "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" but see, the main issue here is that everyone that puts up a BYOH LFM does.

    See the whole point is, that the very existence of a BYOH LFM is players expecting a barb (and everyone else) to be able to heal themselves.
    There is no sudden expectation of self-healing from everyone merely by being in the same universe as a BYOH LFM.

    The expectation is that if you don't meet the requirements of an LFM, however silly, practical, or somewhere in between you find them, you don't join that LFM. Is that hard to understand?

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    ..thinking that you can make a class that can't do all it's basic functions, is wrong, it's sub-par, it akin to being in an off destiny for a major raid...
    Whether this is about Clerics or Rogues or whatever is beside the point.

    It's about people thinking they automatically know what someone else's character's "basic functions" and proper destiny are. You have no idea what they built, geared, and play their character to do.

    What you think is a "class" basic function might not part of that character's basic function.

    Judge the effectiveness, sure. But judge their contribution fairly, not just based on preconceptions you have about what their class icon "should" do.

  16. #296
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    If you put up the LFM as BYOH and a divine joins, you should ask them if they will throw some healing instead of assuming it.

    They may think that since it's BYOH they are expected to use their SP for offense.

    Some divines won't use their SP to heal ever. It doesn't hurt to ask - most will help some even if they prefer BB kiting.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
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  17. #297
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Judge the effectiveness, sure. But judge their contribution fairly, not just based on preconceptions you have about what their class icon "should" do.
    I took pause by this, because anyone with basic understanding of analysis would tell you that you should only compare similar things, otherwise You're just "comparing apples to oranges"

    When (Class A) joins, I am not going to compare what they do against what (Class H) or (Class X) can do, I am going to compare what they do against what I know (Class A) can do. That should be common sense and courtesy.

    To quote Albert Einstein:
    "Everyone is a Genius, but if you judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree, it will live it's whole life believing that it is stupid"

    In this regard, we will never agree.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You're talking about people making gimp builds. Really, this is like the embodiment of all that is fail in this game.

    Added: The truth is HAL, thinking that you can make a class that can't do all it's basic functions, is wrong, it's sub-par
    First of all you CAN make a class that can't do what you call "all its basic functions". Maybe you meant it shouldn't be allowed? The fact is that if a person chooses to focus on one aspect and "ignores" the rest because its not what he is trying to do with his character, that is his choice. Its like a person who in RL can sing really well. Everyone they meet says "You should do that for a living" and think its a shame that the person who can sing is instead a secretary. "What a waste - all that talent". But if that person doesn't want to sing for a living who is anyone else to try to force them?

    This is a game - people play it to have fun. Its not fun to have other people trying to tell you how to play. As I said, just because other people mistakenly believe that they can't play without these roles doesn't mean they have the right to try to force the couple of classes that can perform these roles to do that or judge them if they don't.

    As I've said many times already, if you NEED a specific role in your party why would you ASSUME that some class is automatically able to fill it? I don't know of any situation, whether in a game or RL, where if something is important it is ever a good idea to assume.

    As for my abilities, you know nothing about me so I can't imagine why you would insult me just because I can see why other people would want to do something.
    Last edited by HAL; 07-28-2013 at 10:13 AM.

  19. #299
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Actually, since you seem to be able to grasp the point of the discussion.

    It was never said "All barbs" only that "no one expects a barb to be self healing" which is false, because anyone who makes a BYOH LFM does exactly that.
    There is no double standard here. IMHO, I feel that only a small minority of people can play a drow sorc well. From past experience, most of them die multiple times in a quest.

    However, when I put up a BYOH lfm, I will take a drow sorc in hopes that he/she will be in the 5% that actually can BYOH. The same can be said for a barb. Maybe the barb has splashed evasion, umd, good heal amp, SF pots, or is half elf cleric dilly.

    There is a barb from renowned that can blow any other class out of the water while running heroic. This is why I do not limit or say that there cannot be one good barb or drow out there. Ultimately I expect nothing from puggers. As soon as you think that it will be an easy run, you will bet up for disappointment.
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  20. #300
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Read this again.



    Look at that again, "No one automatically "expects" a Barb to be able to heal himself" but see, the main issue here is that everyone that puts up a BYOH LFM does.

    See the whole point is, that the very existence of a BYOH LFM is players expecting a barb (and everyone else) to be able to heal themselves.

    So yes, the first line does contradict the second one, if NO ONE automatically expected a barb to be able to heal themselves they would never expect a Barb to ever join a BYOH LFM.
    Eh? it makes sense to me.........what he meant was.........nobody expects any just random barbarian to be totally selfhealing, or pure fighter ..........but you do expect people who join a byoh lfm to be able to self heal and that goes for barbarians as well. Do barbarians have to go a little further to obtain self healing.......yes they do.....is it impossible? No it isn't.

    Ive been in plenty of BYOH groups with an lfm up and leaders allow barbarians in, most have been able to self heal. Heck we have even had a barbarian who didn't have any self healing outside of cure serious pots join our byoh for EH gianthold runs. My paladin was the only divine in the group........he was fine....he didn't speak great english I guess thats why he didn't understand the byoh maybe, but he had great heal amp, he was a human barbarian (***? i haven't seen one of those in ages) and I was able to keep both of us up, with cocoon, csw, and someone else was throwing healing spring. He stuck close to me, and let me get the aggro mostly, he did chop stuff down but after others got aggro so he took less damage. After he did say he was sorry he didn't really know what byoh was, and that he was working on getting silverflame pots. Just because an LFM is BYOH doesn't mean that the leader and people in it are hostile and have no patience.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-28-2013 at 10:28 AM.

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