Page 13 of 23 FirstFirst ... 391011121314151617 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 260 of 455
  1. #241
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlannis View Post
    Speaking as a player who has several clerics, who actively enjoys playing the nanny, and who is often complemented on the healing I gave, I think even this statement -- which sounds really reasonable on the surface -- fails to do the subject justice.

    I've found that being in the nanny role requires a very different mental orientation than regular play, and the important point for this thread is that so would BYOHing.


    Nanny: As a nanny I am almost completely focused on the party's red bars. I am trying to get a feel for who is taking damage at what rate so I know what level of healing won't be overkill. I have one finger on the key of whichever player seems most likely to need urgent healing. The rest of my awareness is dedicated to trying to keep track of where people are, trying to stay alive, and a bunch of other peripheral things. In that mode I'm mostly stationary (or walking into walls! ).

    When it happens that my skills are not needed and I get bored, I sometimes switch into combat mode and drop a spell or take some swings -- and that usually ends up coming back to bite the party because now my attention is focused on things other than what healing the party needs. In those few seconds I've completely lost track of all the awareness I discussed in the previous paragraph.


    Standard: When soloing or otherwise not in nanny mode, I'm paying attention to everything at once. I'm mostly focused on my immediate surroundings, plus giving glances at the party red bars as often as I can. But when someone goes low, whether I can do anything about it is much more hit-or-miss. And of course, just as my healing efficiency is down, so is my offensive efficiency.


    BYOH: I don't actually do BYOH, really. Why would I, when I enjoy being the healer? But if I did it with one of my clerics, the whole point would be to focus on things other than healing. I would be every bit as focused as in Nanny mode, but on other things: switching weapons to do the best damage, positioning my BBs right, trying to keep track of the mobs' save types, and so on. Oh, and staying alive and healing myself.


    So what does this have to do with the post I quoted?

    When I'm in that BYOH mode, if you're right next to me and barely able to stand, barely able to quaff a potion because you have two broken arms, and all you can taste is blood when you actually do get the potion up to your mouth, what makes you think I would be aware of any of this? The LFM said BYOH, so what that tells me is, hey, for once I get to actually ignore the party's red bars so I can focus on everything else!

    (And yes, even then, if I actually noticed your red bar was in danger, I'd do something about it -- just as I would if I was playing my 12/8 ranger/rogue with much more limited healing ability.)
    This is a nicely written, clear explanation of the different mindsets a player may have in different situations. It offers logical reasons for a cleric not casting a "critical needs" heal in a BYOH party without being whiny, snobby, extreme, victimized, or inflammatory.

    Are you sure you are in the right thread?
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

    Je ne suis pas
    DDO Alpha Tester

  2. #242
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    GMT + 2
    Posts
    1,983

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlannis View Post
    Nanny: As a nanny I am almost completely focused on the party's red bars. I am trying to get a feel for who is taking damage at what rate so I know what level of healing won't be overkill. I have one finger on the key of whichever player seems most likely to need urgent healing. The rest of my awareness is dedicated to trying to keep track of where people are, trying to stay alive, and a bunch of other peripheral things. In that mode I'm mostly stationary (or walking into walls! ).
    Jeebus what are you hjealing ? Buncha zero fort barbarians in EE DA ? There's almost no situation requiring THAT much attention.
    I can think of few : EE with some horrible suicidal melee toons ( but then, if someone gets 1 or 2 shotted, ALL YOUR attention wouldn't make a difference anyway because they will die again ), or duoing EE with blitzing friend and playing nanny for them ( and this one is actually quite fun ).
    When party can't survive few seconds or everyone gets 2 shotted and it's still fun for you for some reason, fart BB and kite some stuff if you have to.

    Stationary or walking into walls ? That works so well in Belly, PoP, Tor or End of the road. If you are not moving, you are dead.
    Ghallanda

  3. #243
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    232

    Default

    On my FvS I rarely am a healer, unless I agree to... I honor what I agree to do.

    But I do switch to mass heals and mass cures while I fight... so anyone around me gets a little help. I also go ahead and throw some heals where it makes sense. It just makes sense.

    But if I got told to stand in back and focus on healing...would not be interested.

    When I first started doing some EE quests in groups however, I found there are some mobs and occasions where I was able to help the group A LOT MORE by taking a healing role for a moment because quite frankly only one or two of our group could stand up again the damage coming in and it made sense to heal him/her.

    I agree with the sentiment - of don't tell me how to play my character. But I also agree with, if you do not find me useful, feel free not to group with me! It is a pity in a sense, some clerics in certain quests can really go crazy with insta-kills and turning and the like...

    Isn't the barbarian that zergs into a pile of undead that the cleric could of one-shot'd... Just as silly as the cleric who can't handle a group of hard hitting melee type mobs but refuses to heal the tank who can?

    So therefore, yes the cleric is well within their rights... and you are well within yours to pay attention and group accordingly in the future!

    I have actually never seen this played out in game to any extreme, except when it is obviously a flavor build... then... it is what it is... Just because they have an icon, does not mean they have the ability the a pure character does...
    Jeremiiah - Isaiiah - Zephaniiah - Ghallanda - Old Timers Guild

  4. #244
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    85

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something? Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?

    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    Nope they are not. Infact, if they do throw you a heal, you should consider yourself to be lucky.

    The state of the game atm is such that zerging and soloing without bothering to take care of other party members is the most effective way of getting 99.9% of the game content done. Only exception will be raids, some epic elites, and some other heroic quests where its better to have a party.

    From my perspective, I feel that the game is just too easy to beat. Infact its so easy, you can literally play any rubbish build and still get away with it and still manage to cap. I think the game difficulty needs a massive boost where you get destroyed if you make a mistake and dont meet the requirements demanded by the quest, similar to some of the epic elites.

  5. #245
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
    Nope they are not. Infact, if they do throw you a heal, you should consider yourself to be lucky.

    The state of the game atm is such that zerging and soloing without bothering to take care of other party members is the most effective way of getting 99.9% of the game content done. Only exception will be raids, some epic elites, and some other heroic quests where its better to have a party.

    From my perspective, I feel that the game is just too easy to beat. Infact its so easy, you can literally play any rubbish build and still get away with it and still manage to cap. I think the game difficulty needs a massive boost where you get destroyed if you make a mistake and dont meet the requirements demanded by the quest, similar to some of the epic elites.
    Heroic difficulty: Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite, Just Kill Me Already.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

    Je ne suis pas
    DDO Alpha Tester

  6. #246
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Heroic difficulty: Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite, Just Kill Me Already.
    Would JKMA difficulty give an even higher streak bonus? If so I'm all for it.

  7. #247
    2014 DDO Players Council
    SirValentine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    5,767

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I find that 6 soloists running the same quest work together as a group far better than a group of "play your role" characters.
    That is also my experience.

  8. #248
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Would JKMA difficulty give an even higher streak bonus? If so I'm all for it.
    It would include Godless Mode caused by a quorum of curious, sequestered, casting Quells for the ultimate in BYOH experience. Divines couldn't cast if they wanted to.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

    Je ne suis pas
    DDO Alpha Tester

  9. #249
    Community Member deuxanes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    202

    Default

    Maybe it would be best if, before someone was accepted to a party, he/she had to read and agree to some EULA type thing? Something like a party agreement where the party leader defined what he/she expects from party members. ,)

  10. #250
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    8,866

    Default

    When you wake up in the morning and wonder what your going to have for breakfast..........

    A little ranger waits................

    While your frustrated stuck in traffic on your way to work.........

    A little ranger waits...........

    At first he was waiting to see if anyone would notice that his health has been dropping to dangerously low levels..........and now hes at deaths door..........and while we get on with our selfish lives a little ranger still waits.

    OH CRUEL WORLD!!!! THE INHUMANITY OF IT ALL!!!!

  11. #251
    Founder
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,026

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Wait, You're asking me to imagine that I just got someone in my group that could not figure out how to make a rogue that could DPS and do traps?

    I always give people the benefit of the doubt, I accept any build into my groups, because I believe creative people can be really impressive sometimes, but, Wow, Ok, to be honest, at that moment I just started to really question if they are worth the scaling they just added to the dungeon.
    Since most people run on Elite for BB, I have found that trapping at that level does require a fair amount of planning and character resources. I have seen pure rogues that were built for trapping (but perhaps maybe not all the skill points they needed) be unable to find trap boxes or unable to disarm them on occasion. People I regularly run with so I know they aren't "noobs".

    So I imagine that if you were only thinking of your rogue as DPS, not actively planning /making sure you had the required points for trapping, you would probably not be able to trap well. And what's wrong with deciding to focus on DPS? Are you not allowed to do what you want with your character?

  12. #252
    Founder
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,026

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Honestly, refusing to do what one's class does better than any other is deviant, and courtesy demands that such limitations be revealed prior to quest. Doing otherwise is fraud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Cannot speak on arti, since I haven't run one, yet. I know rogue; it takes conscious effort to gimp a rogue so it cannot trap. Also, censored word I edited out was not calling anyone names.
    First, calling someone "deviant" is calling names...

    Second, so because you judge that its easy to make a rogue that can trap you decide that EVERYONE who plays a rogue must be a trapper. I guess some people must have hubris to justify there being that word in the dictionary...

  13. #253
    Founder
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,026

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlannis View Post
    Speaking as a player who has several clerics, who actively enjoys playing the nanny, and who is often complemented on the healing I gave, I think even this statement -- which sounds really reasonable on the surface -- fails to do the subject justice.

    I've found that being in the nanny role requires a very different mental orientation than regular play, and the important point for this thread is that so would BYOHing.


    Nanny: As a nanny I am almost completely focused on the party's red bars. I am trying to get a feel for who is taking damage at what rate so I know what level of healing won't be overkill. I have one finger on the key of whichever player seems most likely to need urgent healing. The rest of my awareness is dedicated to trying to keep track of where people are, trying to stay alive, and a bunch of other peripheral things. In that mode I'm mostly stationary (or walking into walls! ).

    When it happens that my skills are not needed and I get bored, I sometimes switch into combat mode and drop a spell or take some swings -- and that usually ends up coming back to bite the party because now my attention is focused on things other than what healing the party needs. In those few seconds I've completely lost track of all the awareness I discussed in the previous paragraph.


    Standard: When soloing or otherwise not in nanny mode, I'm paying attention to everything at once. I'm mostly focused on my immediate surroundings, plus giving glances at the party red bars as often as I can. But when someone goes low, whether I can do anything about it is much more hit-or-miss. And of course, just as my healing efficiency is down, so is my offensive efficiency.


    BYOH: I don't actually do BYOH, really. Why would I, when I enjoy being the healer? But if I did it with one of my clerics, the whole point would be to focus on things other than healing. I would be every bit as focused as in Nanny mode, but on other things: switching weapons to do the best damage, positioning my BBs right, trying to keep track of the mobs' save types, and so on. Oh, and staying alive and healing myself.

    So what does this have to do with the post I quoted?

    When I'm in that BYOH mode, if you're right next to me and barely able to stand, barely able to quaff a potion because you have two broken arms, and all you can taste is blood when you actually do get the potion up to your mouth, what makes you think I would be aware of any of this? The LFM said BYOH, so what that tells me is, hey, for once I get to actually ignore the party's red bars so I can focus on everything else!

    (And yes, even then, if I actually noticed your red bar was in danger, I'd do something about it -- just as I would if I was playing my 12/8 ranger/rogue with much more limited healing ability.)
    Great post, I completely agree.

  14. #254
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,866

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlannis View Post


    So what does this have to do with the post I quoted?

    When I'm in that BYOH mode, if you're right next to me and barely able to stand, barely able to quaff a potion because you have two broken arms, and all you can taste is blood when you actually do get the potion up to your mouth, what makes you think I would be aware of any of this? The LFM said BYOH, so what that tells me is, hey, for once I get to actually ignore the party's red bars so I can focus on everything else!

    (And yes, even then, if I actually noticed your red bar was in danger, I'd do something about it -- just as I would if I was playing my 12/8 ranger/rogue with much more limited healing ability.)
    Kudos, that's exactly what I thought when I read the post you quoted. All the flowery overly dramatic wording of having "two broken arms and tasting blood" aside, what it really amounts to is the "red bar is low". There are few other indicators of a character's "distress" beyond that. The characters aren't bleeding. Heck, they aren't even breathing hard. And in a BYOH party a cleric is far less likely to be staring at red bars.

    As far as the OP, it's obvious more was going on. He claims to have been incapped, waiting for his Diehard to bring him back, and asked the Cleric for a cure to get him back up. Which apparently was refused. The Cleric in the group piped up in this thread and said he checked to make sure he wasn't going to die and moved on; he said he would have rezzed him if he had died. He certainly didn't feel "obligated" to cast a cure on a player that was in no immediate danger, by the OP's own words he stabilized, came back, and healed himself up.

    Who knows what other dynamics were going on. The OP admitted he had bitten off more than he could chew. Maybe it went beyond that, maybe he was messing things up and the others wanted him to think before he aggroed stuff. Who knows? After all, in a BYOH party it's likely other people could have thrown some sort of "cure" on him too and yet they didn't either.

    So, no, no one is under any sort of real "obligation". Heck, if someone's in a group with people that annoy them he's not even obligated to stay in the quest, let alone help out.

    There's no way for us to really know what happened. Only the people in that group know what happened. We may have expectations of our party members, but no one is under any special obligation to meet them. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just stating it as it is. Everything after that just depends on the dynamics and personalities of the individuals involved.

  15. #255
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    First, calling someone "deviant" is calling names...

    Second, so because you judge that its easy to make a rogue that can trap you decide that EVERYONE who plays a rogue must be a trapper. I guess some people must have hubris to justify there being that word in the dictionary...
    I didn't call anyone a deviant. I identified abnormal behavior as deviant. It is normal for people to do what they are good at, because the vast majority of people like to succeed.

    And yeah, since rogues are primarily identified with trapping, opening locks, and sneak attack, it is fair to expect every normal rogue to be able to trap to some useful degree. Should someone choose to make a deviant rogue build because she prefers the playing style of a typical barbarian, that is her choice, but she should let the party leader know if she rendered herself unable to perform a standard rogue task.
    Last edited by Tscheuss; 07-27-2013 at 09:26 AM.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

    Je ne suis pas
    DDO Alpha Tester

  16. #256
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,783

    Default

    ever seen what happens when a rogue joins a group and wont disable traps or cant because they built a dps rogue that cant do traps? I did it once and made it to level 10. too much griefing and it just didn't make sense that my character couldn't disable traps. I did invest in lock picking. woot? ever looked at the lfm and saw a rogue/artificer looking for a trapper? what runs through your mind when you see that? do you join anyways?

    if a barbarian with rogue splash can disable traps and lock pick without hurting their dps, than a trapper can put a little investment towards it too. it really doesn't take a lot to be able to get elite heroic traps. theres only a couple that have high DCs that are of epic level.

    play how you want, I welcome all builds and don't care what build you are or what your splits are. I just care about how you perform in a group. we never hear about any other classes not doing something or helping except for those that have healing capabilities. its pretty clear that the argument will always go in circles between those that just want to worry about themselves and want like minded players in their group and those who just ask for a little teamwork.

  17. #257
    Community Member catmamor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    I wee tale to help set the record straight ...

    Imagine for a moment being a 10 year old kid, first invited by strangers who make you feel so welcome, and like you joining them is the best thing ever, then by the end the are yelling at you, insulting you telling you to un install the game, even going so far as to tell you to go kill yourself before you have the chance to grow into a bigger waste of space. Yes all that was hurled at the poor kid FVS in that run.

    Its this kind of thing I feel strongly over and feel the need to see stopped from our game at all costs. Id sooner see DDO end then have one more kid be told to kill himself by same d bag who thinks a game is that important.
    Will you marry me?


    There is nothing like a bit of stress-free slaughter to wind down after a busy day...and cake, there must also be cake.

  18. #258
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Since most people run on Elite for BB, I have found that trapping at that level does require a fair amount of planning and character resources. I have seen pure rogues that were built for trapping (but perhaps maybe not all the skill points they needed) be unable to find trap boxes or unable to disarm them on occasion. People I regularly run with so I know they aren't "noobs".

    So I imagine that if you were only thinking of your rogue as DPS, not actively planning /making sure you had the required points for trapping, you would probably not be able to trap well. And what's wrong with deciding to focus on DPS? Are you not allowed to do what you want with your character?
    Complete BS.

    If I can find every trap at heroic elite BB levels with a single rogue level on a FVS or Cleric, 12 base int and no rogue skill boost, then what excuse does a full rogue or arti have?

    When I used to play on characters without trapping skills, I used to carry a stash of heroism and foxes potions. Any time a character with maxed trapping skills couldn't find the boxes, I would hand them some heroism / foxes pots, and then they ALWAYS found them.

    Now I simply take rogue or arti levels myself on an character that isn't in their final life, no need to waste time with incompetent trappers that way.

    And I don't get why someone would take rogue or arti levels in the first place if they didn't want trapping abilities, +15% XP bonus is amazing.

    Another thing is, as someone pointed out above, it is also my experience that a team of 6 soloists play significantly better together than a team of 'know your role' characters. I would rather play in groups where everyone is self sufficient to the point of being able to handle themselves and do something useful in the quest. Standing at the back of the group and healing everyone is NOT being useful, especially when clerics get free healing in radiant servant, and so many amazing offensive spells that they could be using instead.

    Some hints on how to play a cleric (also FVS) -

    Heighten spell ASAP and max wisdom. At lower levels spam soundburst and command. Against undead use holy smites / radiant bursts. When stuff is stunned / knocked down / blinded, you shouldn't have to heal anyone.

    - Higher levels - Greater Command and Cometfall. Great CC spells, with these a sufficiently built divine can easily rival a CC wizard on heroic elites (35 DC is enough for heroic elite).

    - Destruction and Slay living - easy peasy to kill stuff with these, just learn which mobs have low fort saves for these, and high ones have low will saves for greater command instead. When you open an attack into every mob instantly killing two enemies (ALWAYS casters first), and follow up with a greater command on the rest, you should never have to heal anyone.

    - Blade Barrier. Despite popular / common belief, is not as good as the above unless you are solo zerging through stuff. The reason its not so great in parties is that other people keep getting agro and never kite through the BB. If they did, they likely wouldn't need as many heals.

    - Implosion. If planning on using this in the end game, use the magister destiny and evocation focuses. Also grinding out wiz and sorc past lives help a lot. Needs a DC of 42+ to be reliable in EH, which is doable, but forget about any of this stuff being valid on EE.

    The only time you should really be heal botting is on EE and in some raids.
    Last edited by DDOisFree; 07-27-2013 at 08:36 PM.

  19. #259
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Complete BS.

    If I can find every trap at heroic elite BB levels with a single rogue level on a FVS or Cleric, 12 base int and no rogue skill boost, then what excuse does a full rogue or arti have?
    Yah, I gotta agree with this, even my Int Dumped Barb who I took 2 levels of Rogue for evasion could get most of the Elite Traps in my TR BB Runs, and my Wiz/Rogue lives, LOL, forgetaboutit. As such anyone walking into a quest with a pure rogue that could not do the same, totally inexcusable (excluding total newbs).

    There is only so far I am going to humor that "I'll play the way I want"

  20. #260
    Founder
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,026

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Complete BS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Yah, I gotta agree with this,
    You can insult me if you want, but I said it was what I experienced. I'm not generally known as a liar, but thanks for your opinion....

Page 13 of 23 FirstFirst ... 391011121314151617 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload