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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uidolon View Post
    should you have joined the BYOH if you actually want a healer in the party to heal you?
    Personally, I think everyone should bring at least a small amount of heal potions. Some clerics are still learning how best to play their toons and some groups are too large for one or two clerics to heal constantly without running out of spell points. I will heal if I am close enough to you and you stay still or in range long enough to get healed. But I will not chase you down to heal you.

  2. #142
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    I disagree. When you join a group you agree to the conditions set by the party leader. If you join a favor run do you expect xp? I don't think so and even if you start complaining that you don't get xp it's only your fault. You could have set your -insert quest name- lfm, to run it for xp, but you decided to join the favor one, so you can't demand xp.
    Same goes for BYOH, zerg or flowersniffing lfms. I usually like to zerg in heroic, so I don't join the "everybody's welcome" lfms, cause usually they tend to go to a slower pace and they require for you to adapt to their style. As much as I expect people to keep up with heals and speed if I post BYOH zerg.
    Plus the teamwork argument is usually misunderstood by some players. Zerging and BYOH doesn't mean every man for himself, but every man does a percentage of a quest for example. So if in delera 4 1 person, let's say the cleric goes right by himself, leaving the left wing to the fighter, he's not leaving him to die there. They're simply maxing the xp/min ratio by doing each one a part of the quest at the same time. And that's why you need to be prepared to join some kind of lfms
    Abiding by lfm conditions and goals is still looking out for team. Your attempt to disagree failed.
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  3. #143
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Abiding by lfm conditions and goals is still looking out for team. Your attempt to disagree failed.
    What if the lfm says Look after yourself, do not play as a team?

  4. #144
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    A guy in my guild plays Rogues "which dont trap", Favored Souls which are "Necro builds not heal builds", Wizards that "dont CC or do party buffs" and Sorcs which "only take Force spells". His Ranger "did not carry any melee weapons at all".

    I believe his goal is to create toons in such a way that it is guaranteed to annoy all of us at every opportunity. Although, is Artificer seemed to be set up like a normal XBow/Rune Arm Artificer. Maybe he was drunk that life.

    All said, as long he doesnt die he isnt costing us 10% XP so we dont mind.
    Why should non-healing clerics have all the fun? lol
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  5. #145
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    "Argument" does not = "fight". You made a point and one of the definitions of "argument":

    "a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory."
    Perhaps, in this context, 'fight' = 'argument', in connotation if not denotation.
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  6. #146
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    What if the lfm says Look after yourself, do not play as a team?
    Then you look out for the team by keeping yourself alive, should you choose to join such a deviant group.
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  7. #147
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Personally I think anyone that can't heal themselves is am reject. Especially ones that have umd in spades. And being a ranger that hasn't learned that longbow SUCKS outside of manyshot by 21 just deserves to repeatedly die any way the group can make it happen.

    Cleric though kinda is meh id go for the favored.
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  8. #148
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Then you look out for the team by keeping yourself alive, should you choose to join such a deviant group.
    I guess so lol.

    Anyway as for me, I will try and help where I can if I join a byoh group but my expectations of receiving outside healing are low, im grateful but I don't *expect* it, no matter what other kinds of class icons are in the party. A cleric joining is not going to immediately stop how im playing, unless hes using aura and bursts then I will be sticking close to him to top up along the way if I do need to conserve resources. Or he tells me to be more aggressive hes now got my back.

  9. #149
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    Default Let's try irony...

    Ok next time I start a group it will be BYOH and I'll exclude FVS and cleric from the list.

    Actually, I might include all other classes except perhaps pure barbarians and fighters. Don't want nobody using no UMD to get around the BYOH rule! In fact, if those others are half-elf I might also exclude em on the off chance they took the cleric dilly...

    Or perhaps I'll simply post "Have some self-sufficiency" in the LFM instead of BYOH. I'll settle if they link a full stack of siberys cakes.

    I'll get back in box now.
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  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    You may not need to, no. But it is more fun if you do play as a team. Some people just may not get this though.
    It might be more fun for YOU. Now I'm not actually antisocial I just get where other people are coming from. Just like some people in this type of thread talk about how fun it is to only Heal and do that "job" really well, there are some people who will Heal but want to also melee or cast DPS.

    Everyone has a different POV, don't imply that if its not fun for someone else to play as a team they're doing it "wrong" - there is no "wrong".

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danaeyris View Post
    Personally, I think everyone should bring at least a small amount of heal potions. Some clerics are still learning how best to play their toons and some groups are too large for one or two clerics to heal constantly without running out of spell points. I will heal if I am close enough to you and you stay still or in range long enough to get healed. But I will not chase you down to heal you.
    No, if the LFM is BYOH, that means there might not be anyone who joins the party who can help heal you at all. What if the group is all melee? A "small amount of heal potions" is probably not going to get you through a quest unless you have some other means of healing, like you are a caster, light monk, etc.

  12. #152
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    Default My own personal moment when I knew how apathetic players in DDO had become.

    I wee tale to help set the record straight about how I play.

    One day I was running an at level elite tempest spine with a pug I joined up with. No unsurprisingly it took a while to fill as the last 2 spots initially where held for the "HEALERS" all the pure fighters and barbrs in the group said we HAD TO HAVE of it would be an automatic wipe. We also had a pure sorc who though old school in bragging about his PK ability, did prove as we got going he would one shot about everything with it faster then any melee barb could close.

    I was on a for fun 1/2/7 fighter,rogue,wiz and although I had not been the main rogue, it soon became obvious I was the only viable choice for traps, so despite the slightly mocking tone I got from the WF sorc for being a fleshy drow wiz( yeah I was AM not PM cus I myself do enjoy a challenge even with an arcane) I was proving my use to the group, and being typically well armed and geared had little to fear from any foe. It made a few of the barbs annoyed I had banishers and smiters and seemed to roll 20s almost on the first swing of every elemental and golem we encountered.

    My shocking handwraps of greater aberation bane made short work of rust monsters, and my beholders optic nerve and the same hand wraps let me endure the Big Eyes even as the Poor FVS the only divine caster who was willing to join us had even his seemingly bottomless mana pool strained by all the mana sponge players, everyone with at least 2 past lives to them, and all talking like they were king conan himself.

    Apparently a FVS whos death ward was dispelled by the beholder is still at fault for a barbs instant death and despite being the soul divine magic support player in the group who was working his tail off trying to watch 8 suicidal barbs and fighters, and a pure rogue who had dumped int and his trap skills so much he wasnt any good for trapping elite at lvl content, people started harping on the FVS, keep in mind deaths only occurred really because the melees where getting itchy for kills as the PK sorcerer started wracking them up.

    The first bit of real fun was the one beholder at the bottom of the hole. As we approached him the warriors all leap down saying we got this you casters cant do anything. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING.

    Like a doorbell being held down all 8 eager warriors died in a blink from the single beholder.

    The sorc chuckled and walked to the edge say it would be one and done like all the rest. Poor guy got noticed as he edged up to the hole and ding was instakilled in a real spell version of the quick and the dead.

    Suddenly the entire group was nervous. All the first wave had died far enough into the pit reaching the top of the ladder let alone getting out of harms way to accept a rez was not an option.

    I stepped up as the sorcer got back and was rezzed, saying I got this guys. Its not an issue. I knew my nerve was fully charged, and my fist where eager to give the beholder a go.

    I drew a thundering of greater aberation bane shortsword with festivault frost upon it, and first as I drew near the edge threw a suggestion at the beholder, and roars of WHO PARTY HATTED THE BEHOLDER! filled the team chat. Apparently non had ever seen a suggestion used before.

    I walked up to the beholder, stepped behind him, hasted and rogue haste boosted, as I dismissed the suggestion and tore the beholder apart, My nerve held and had one charge left by the time I was done.

    Complaints that I was a hacker, etc, that it was bugged letting a suggestion effect a beholder, and many other petty QQs came from the so called warriors who had all fallen like leaves from a tree in the months before a snow. Motivated by pure envy and their own sense of inadequacy they became ever more vicious in how they spoke down to the FVS as if he was now there to not only wipe their arses but be the focus for their rage.

    We made it to the end, and the final fight went down as usual with one bit of bad luck at least from my point of veiw, you see the FVS was a new player, had said so at the beginning when he had joined after being asked to help by the groups leader, one of the mouthy barbs. He had truly been doing his best, and keeping up with vets in the maze that is TS I think we can all agree is no easy thing for a first timer cleric trying to keep up with barbs running around like headless chickens.

    Well the FVS didnt have FoM. Personally no big deal to me done TS many a time lacking FoM, but this sent the so called warriors into another round of verbally abusing the FVS who by his/her voice alone couldnt of been much past 10. Some hate gaming with kids, me I dont mind, they need to learn the game same as us, and tend to once learned be the superior player with their youthful twitch reflexes and sponge like minds. However only now deep in the quest did it become yet another aspect for the group to beat down on the kid for. You could tell the kid was trying hard to not let their tears choke them down as they tried to remind the group they where a first timer, and had been asked to join the group.

    Well anyways lacking FoM we went and did the big boss fight, the leader I noticed neglecting to say anyting about keeping backs to the wall etc.

    Fight went pretty fast, group new the puzzle and the sorce tore the big guy apart like he was the raid boss and the giant one of our silly barbs.

    However just at the end the FVS was hit with the knock off. and not being in the know didnt have FF at the ready and a quick /stuck to recall back to top.

    The fall landed the kid on an island surounded by fire els and incapped. Everyone else even the sorc laughed and they all recalled.

    I was utterly disgusted, and I told the kid to hang on. I was no cleric, not even a self healing arcane outside of wands and pots with my rogue splashed umd.

    And of those i was out having passed them to the FVS to help show him some support when his mana had been tapped and he had to start using material healing.

    I didnt have much mana left either as although I doubt my evoker force barrage had been the key to our victory I never shy away from doing my part in the big fights.

    I did however have the good old bracers of aid and a charge ready to go, and without hesitation leapt with FF on gliding for the incapped FVS. as I neared I yelled to the kid to be ready to react and get out of there. As I closed in I landed a few suggestions on the fire els turning them on each other as I landed the aid on the FVS. We had to move fast and got out of there asap, and then I took the time to lead the kid back to the mountain top to get his chests. being a new player I passed him that named heavy armor I had drop for me and he was so excited it was like a kid at xmas.

    Its these kind of events I have had to witness first hand that tells me its far more then simply an issue with diverging play styles, its a matter of apathy. We have no sense of community and no heart and soul left for anyone outside of our circles. Turbine is the one who brought us down this path, and is the only one who can really change the way the game works to remove this kind of poor behavior by removing any aspect of the game that creates the expectation of another player doing for yours.

    In the end that group of melees clearly would of all been happier had they been able to play hack frenzy with no concern for their lives, and the FVS would of been better off never being subjected to that kind of behavior from a group that begged him to join.

    Imagine for a moment being a 10 year old kid, first invited by strangers who make you feel so welcome, and like you joining them is the best thing ever, then by the end the are yelling at you, insulting you telling you to un install the game, even going so far as to tell you to go kill yourself before you have the chance to grow into a bigger waste of space. Yes all that was hurled at the poor kid FVS in that run.

    Its this kind of thing I feel strongly over and feel the need to see stopped from our game at all costs. Id sooner see DDO end then have one more kid be told to kill himself by same d bag who thinks a game is that important.

  13. #153
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    .
    Those people in that group where ********* poor kid. Everything else was bad enough but where you serious about the personal attacks and telling that kid to go kill himself? To me thats just abusive and yes almost crossing the line into the criminal adults bullying a young kid over a stupid game.

    Yeah they wanted him to come and enable their selfish gaming, but didnt want to offer anything positive in return. Bunch of cowardly wankers if you ask me and yet a perfect example of why so many with a divine icon go anon.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-26-2013 at 02:25 AM.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    They're as obligated to do something as a rogue is obligated to be a trap monkey. And I'll have you know, my rogue is a terrible trap monkey.
    I play a 1 rogue / 19 FVS. That is just for FVS past life grinding. I kill everything with my blue bar, heal myself, and get traps for XP bonus.

    If a rogue joins my FVS's group, he isn't obligated to get traps, I will do that automatically if I can for the bonus XP.

    Similarly when I play on my rogue, he carries his own stack of heal scrolls / wands at lower levels. When be needs a heal, I jump of combat and heal myself asap. Though its barely anything these days to pull off, I have soloed the entire Carnival chain and Devils Assault on Epic Normal with a rogue (which is easy peasy), but it takes too long without a blue bar and spells.

    I actually carry around cleric hirelings and solo farm whatever I can, not because I need others to heal me but entirely so I can save my blue bar for offense and have loads of DVs for extra SP.

    When Im in a group, the only time I ever ask for a heal is if I am helpless. Otherwise all my characters are self sufficient (WF sorc, UMD rogue, Pale master fleshie wiz, FVS, Cleric).

    I understand that some classes are not self sufficient and I couldn't ever play those myself, but if I notice anyone that needs a heal and I am capable, then I do that as long as they are being useful. However I wont heal anyone that demands a heal when their red bar is just slightly dented when they could drink a potion or two instead. The problem is though Im rarely watching peoples health bars when Im in a group even as a divine, as I focus purely on enemy mobs. A well placed greater command, cometfall, destruction, slay living or implosion means no one needs healing, and I rarely fail on my DC checks on heroic elites even with a divine.

    If a group says BYOH, then that means everyone can heal themselves. If it says 'need healer', then that means I occasionally click on heal while targetting someone else. But people generally find that once stuff has been killed by my FVS, they don't need much healing.

    Heroic Elite is easy these days, you rarely need dedicated healers outside of raids and epic content, and if you do need a healer for heroic quests they are available at the hireling vendor.wo
    Last edited by DDOisFree; 07-26-2013 at 03:33 AM.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Right what was presented was one side saying I incapped and the mean cleric didn't heal me. Hardly an unbiased version of events. It could be true, but most likely isn't the whole story as things like this rarely are.
    Is it equally mean if you are incapped and a wizard / sorc doesn't throw you a Greater Heroism?

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I agree, but I have had a ton of people join and pop a cleric hireling..

    So my question to everyone..Is that BYOHeals or BYOHireling? Different or the same?
    Bringing a hireling is bringing your own heals in the form of a pocket healer. If there's space in the group for a hireling healer, I don't see why anyone would complain. The leader can keep the LFM up and ask for the hireling to be dismissed if anyone else joins.

    99% of the time, a person will ask if popping a hire is ok, and the group leader will say yes.

  17. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Is it equally mean if you are incapped and a wizard / sorc doesn't throw you a Greater Heroism?
    Let's not lose sight of the fact that the original example was a RANGER being incapped and not getting a heal from the cleric. This is indeed funny (as opposed to malicious) because rangers get a) diehard, and b) cure spells.

    The end of the story was never given. Diehard auto-recovers you, when you recover from incap nowadays the game shoots you back up to like 20% of your max hp (recent change), and of course rangers get cure spells, wands, scrolls and pots.

    Also in that story is the tidbit that the cleric stood over him, implying that the mobs in that general area (where the ranger had admitted to running in and biting off more than he could chew) was cleared of mobs.

    So here's my take on how that story ended: The ranger auto-stabilized to 20% of his max hp, maybe cast a few cure spells or did a wand-pot whip to get back to full health and resumed the quest. Oh the horror!

    Maybe the cleric came in, cleared the mobs, then left the ranger to stabilize as a very short "time out" to reflect on better aggro management.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    When a cleric joins a BYOH group....

    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little?
    No.

    Why do you think they even joined a BYOH group instead of running solo & anon?

    Now even explicit BYOH groups are not safe from the whiny little hjeal-me! crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Didn't they take an oath or something?
    Yes...to the principles of their god or religion. Were you there when they swore that oath? There wasn't anything in there at all about healing, let alone healing noobs with an entitlement complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?
    If you kick pikers, regardless of class, I won't complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    If you can't BYOH, go find a hjealbot (human or hireling, I don't care) to run with.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I generally could care less, but you do have to consider that some classes don't really have an option other than a hireling.

    I do think it's pretty silly to see a cleric with a healer hire in tow, but hey, whatever makes you happy.
    No that's not silly at all, you simply lack any understanding.

    I pop a cleric hire when playing and leading a group on my FVS lives, or say to my group 'if you need heals, feel free to pop a pocket healer as Im actually a Wizard and not a healer', and my bio clearly says the same thing.

    The reason is that I get to spend more of my blue bar killing mobs, which is how I enjoy playing, rather than having to waste it on healing. And also I get DVs so I don't need to use pots, plus a raise if I die.

    Also around level 14-18, I prefer to change from using a cleric hire to Larafay, as her destructions work all the time. She is better than heal bot hirelings or players.

    If people want a dedicated heal bot in their groups, that is exactly what hireling healers are for. Player clerics / FVS are much better when played offensively.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaken View Post
    - FVS zergs ahead with BB and implosion
    <snip>
    - FVS reaches end boss and quest completed
    Sounds like an easy completion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaken View Post
    - Rest of party arrives and struggles to kill strays and avoiding the traps that was triggered by the divine
    <snip>
    - There is no more team work in DDO anymore.
    Yeah, why weren't the rest of you helping out? That's being poor team players, making the FvS do most of the work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaken View Post
    - No heals or cure
    So...you basically piked the quest instead of keeping up and contributing, and now, in addition to doing almost the whole thing for you, you expect this other guy else to babysit your red bar, too? Too cheap to buy some cure pots?

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