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  1. #41
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    I'd say that when a cleric joins a BYOH group, they're doing it right. They did bring their own heals, after all.

  2. #42
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I was firmly in the "clerics should heal" camp in the last long discussion and even I do not think they should feel obligated to do so except in emergencies when the LFM says "BYOH".

    That said, I think the offensive capabilities of most clerics are grossly exaggerated on these forums. It is very rare that I run into one that does anywhere near as good a job as a class designed for the purpose.

    (Before the inevitable response: "most" does not mean "all".)
    That's because the good clerics don't pug, Q. At least not on Sarlona, and not since Hex left

  3. #43
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    BYOH + Cleric = BYOH

    If you assume anything else, it is not the cleric's fault.

    If you are not capable of BYOH, do not join.
    Orien: Zizie, Zeelee, Zeeny, Zeety, Zeleste, Zeeby
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  4. #44
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I'm tired of people needing cleric/fvs for eh quests.
    I'm tired of people who start to run away with top speed after 1 hit from EE mob reduced their HP bellow 50%, avoiding mass heal and dying (or worse, taking mass heal with them, away from team).
    Except raids and tor, I'm only joining byoh pugs now, and I only put lfm when quest is done and chests are waiting.
    And in BYOH LFMs I'm not using any spot heals at all, except if someone needs to have attributes restored, I'm casting burst, light and MCCW all centered on myself when I or someone takes damage. If they're too far to get healed, too bad, sacrifice to loot gods.

  5. #45
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    If a cleric joining your group means it's no longer BYOH, put that in the LFM please. A proper BYOH group is so much fun that I'll switch to my cleric to run them... and if you take the "BYOH" off after I join, I'll drop.
    True!

    Wonder if the OP at least told the CLR that he/she is now Healing the party and BYOH is now null and void because they have the nanny they were after? Did he tell the party they are no longer responsible for themselves now that they have a nanny?

    If I joined a BYOH on my Divine and the reason I joined was suddenly changed by the fact I joined, I would drop too!

    It's no wonder so many Divines are anon and stick to Guild, channel, friends, or private runs!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  6. #46
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Yes to this. I'm not demanding the cleric to top me/others in party up. Just when the fight is at its zenith, throw a frickin heal, ya bum.
    Turbine hasn't coded Cure Serious Tunnel Vision. A Cleric can't cast it on you.

    If it is BYOH, you're supposed to know enough about aggro management, scaling, tactics, and your healing limitations that external healing isn't an issue. If you're so preoccupied with your fighting it's rather presumptuous to believe that the cleric isn't preoccupied at the moment too.

    And in the end, it's your character, your health, and your success. All yours. Not the clerics. You're responsible for it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    That's because the good clerics don't pug, Q. At least not on Sarlona, and not since Hex left
    Don't know who "Hex" is.

    Anyway, the clerics who don't PUG don't really enter into this whole equation. I'm referring to the clerics who do PUG, many of whom try to go on the offensive and do a pretty bad job of it.

    All the bluster on the forums about how clerics/FVSs are one-toon wrecking machines strikes me as just another form of online <bodypart>-waving. The reality doesn't match up with the hype most of the time.

    And anyone who is "tired" of those who might need healing on an EH quest really is better off sticking to soloing and their own private groups. That's a win-win all around -- I'd rather take my chances with a hireling than deal with that sort of attitude, personally.

  8. #48
    Community Member DeKalbSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    My aura is going and I use my bursts.... If you want heals... stay close.
    this is all I would expect from a healer in a BYOH group, and I would be happy that I got it.
    Mangas Geronimo (Paladin) Grocery Baggs (Ranger) Naiche Geronimo (Cleric)

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  9. #49
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default If you are in a BYOH group...

    and you absolutely refuse to help heal in whatever capacity you are able when needed and help the party that is helping you then you fall in 1 or more of the following catagories...

    1) Lazy
    2) Stupid
    3) Stubborn
    4) "SO-OVER-IT" when someone is obviously not contributing or is being rude.

    Your group might even become BYOH even though it didn't start like that....

    You might even find yourself on your Druid in a EE Cabal for one, with a 17Cleric/2Rogue/1Sorc as a "Healer" with no RS Burst or Aura that is swapping between a rapier + Shield, Hvy Repeater and Longbow to "DPS" when out of spell points 2 min into quest and wanting to have conversations about Trap Disabling DCs while not healing themselves (or getting heals from the Druid who was in catagory 4 most of the quest.....)

    Of course Rogue party leader passes out Pots to the Cleric and Sorc...

    And IGNORES the fact that the Druid is Carrying the GD party comprised of said Rogue, WF Barb, Horc Monk AND Healing the WF Sorc so his SP are more meaningfull...

    Drank 2 of my own major mnems (no biggy), and threw out 40 Heal Scrolls plus the one shrine....No problem!

    Was in a "BYOH-ish" group this morning doing HE Lords of Dust on my 2nd life 2Rogue/14Ftr Cleric Dille 6-deep alt. The SoS wielding Legend Barb with 700Hp was at least making an effort and chugging CSW pots every other step between fights. So I continue fighting and throwing Heal Scrolls on both myself and him while the rest of the party worked on optionals. I continued farming Hard with them and used maybe 10 Heal Scrolls (2 OR 3 pieces of vendor trash loot worth) on the Barb who was kicking butt and taking names and thanking me for the Heals. ZOMG BASIC HUMAN CONSIDERATION AND COURTESY FTW!!!!!
    I am often cynical and say mean things. It's a WAI "Feature".

  10. #50
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Don't know who "Hex" is.

    Anyway, the clerics who don't PUG don't really enter into this whole equation. I'm referring to the clerics who do PUG, many of whom try to go on the offensive and do a pretty bad job of it.

    All the bluster on the forums about how clerics/FVSs are one-toon wrecking machines strikes me as just another form of online <bodypart>-waving. The reality doesn't match up with the hype most of the time.

    And anyone who is "tired" of those who might need healing on an EH quest really is better off sticking to soloing and their own private groups. That's a win-win all around -- I'd rather take my chances with a hireling than deal with that sort of attitude, personally.
    Ok.

  11. #51

    Default A message from Doktorkoopa

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something? Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?

    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    In the mysterious future, there will be a PrE that lets clerics specialize in "dark" spells, personally i wish they had taken this a step farther and given clerics and favored souls the ability to be light or dark upon taking the first level of cleric or favored soul. And for clerics it would mean you don't auto gain cure spells you auto gain inflict spells. Also in this world of me wishing, that the inflict spells be buffed to be competitive damage versus other offensive spells in the game. What am I saying here, I'm saying that just because you have a class that can heal, it does not mean you MUST heal. No class must do anything that is one of the inherit awesome qualities of the game you choose how to build/play your toon. Sure your charisma based rogue may not be so great but it's yours to build.

    So in closing don't assume the cleric/fvs/druid/bard/ranger/paladin will heal you just because they have heal spells because we all know what happens when you assume.

    Doktorkoopa,

    Waiting for a ddo where divine casters have a right to be a spell based dps class as well.

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  12. #52
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    A lot of people seem to dislike Pale Masters because they are OP, were overused, etc. but one thing I think they taught a lot of people who played them is how to be self-sufficient - because they had to. It wasn't that they didn't "need" to get heals from others - they COULDN'T (especially after Harm stopped working). So it was all on them to learn how to manage their own agro so they could both heal themselves and DPS at the same time.

    Other DPS characters might be very good about being self-sufficient, but there's always that little awareness in the back of their mind that if they push it the healer will be there to haul their a$$ out of the fire

  13. #53
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    It's BYOH so no it should not be "required" or "expected", the rules state bring your own and I did in spades.

    That said when I do join these I have an aura going non stop, I burst in combat. I am CC'ing and wading into the melee meatgrinder. Stick close and you will be fine.

    I will toss the odd mass cures here and there but by and large watching your red bar is NOT my priority in a BYOH group.

    Also, on principle alone, I will not toss heals on the party leader of a BYOH or anyone who runs away from the main group / me.

    Why am I el jerko like that, well frankly because I hate the BYOH thing to begin with as many of them simply don't have the party work as a team. I prefer team work but if you want a BYOH every toon for itself zerg fest on a couple quests I really want done then fine I am in but don't expect anything special from me.

    Now the exception to this is if the group is actually working together as a team, if we play teams then I am all in. Sadly that happens maybe 15% of the time when I am in a BYOH group.


  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Yeah, can you believe the nerve of some people?

    Just the other day I was on my Sorcerer and joined group with a Fighter. I gave her a stack of heal scrolls and told her to keep me up.

    When push came to shove, I didn't get a single heal!

    Gosh, I could have healed my self but for crying out loud, she should have stepped it up.
    erm.. no UMD?

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redtalktree View Post
    erm.. no UMD?
    I'm pretty sure his post was sarcastic - saying "of course the fighter didn't heal me as he probably wasn't built to do so. As any Divine might be built to melee instead of heal".

  16. #56
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Don't know who "Hex" is.
    ...
    Try to imagine someone who enjoys playing clerics, PUGs frequently, is intolerant of stupidity, and demonstrates excellent leadership skills.

    Now you know who "Hex" is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    ...
    Anyway, the clerics who don't PUG don't really enter into this whole equation. I'm referring to the clerics who do PUG, many of whom try to go on the offensive and do a pretty bad job of it.

    All the bluster on the forums about how clerics/FVSs are one-toon wrecking machines strikes me as just another form of online <bodypart>-waving. The reality doesn't match up with the hype most of the time.
    ...
    These two sentences don't really go well together. The "one-toon wrecking machines" only group up because they want to, not because they need to. It's not surprising that the ones you witness aren't quite up to the task.

    Help me understand what you mean -

    1. There's no such thing as a "one-toon wrecking machine", or
    2. Clerics/FvS are not good candidates for that role

    Personally, I think a good player can be a "one-toon wrecking machine" on any class/build they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    ...
    And anyone who is "tired" of those who might need healing on an EH quest really is better off sticking to soloing and their own private groups. That's a win-win all around -- I'd rather take my chances with a hireling than deal with that sort of attitude, personally.
    Believe it or not, there's an entire culture people who are self-sufficient and enjoy the company of others of like mind. That's why many of us put terms like "BYOH" in our LFMs.

    Why should we be anti-social?
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  17. #57
    Community Member Paryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Don't know who "Hex" is.

    Anyway, the clerics who don't PUG don't really enter into this whole equation. I'm referring to the clerics who do PUG, many of whom try to go on the offensive and do a pretty bad job of it.

    All the bluster on the forums about how clerics/FVSs are one-toon wrecking machines strikes me as just another form of online <bodypart>-waving. The reality doesn't match up with the hype most of the time.

    And anyone who is "tired" of those who might need healing on an EH quest really is better off sticking to soloing and their own private groups. That's a win-win all around -- I'd rather take my chances with a hireling than deal with that sort of attitude, personally.
    In a byoh group: just because they may be horrible offensive divines, doesn't then imply that their blue bars are only for healing others. If they are self sufficient, heal, can take care of their agro/self, then I would argue the divine meets the needs of a BYOH group. Anyone who cannot take care of themselves, or is unwilling to to any extent does not. Even if they might be the kill count leader/best dps- all classes included.
    Agro - Paryan, Pary, Parrii, Parriahh
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  18. #58
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    Default Its this simple:

    I'm going to skip this entire thread and just say this:

    If a group gets together and some need heals and some want to heal, great. If they agree that its heal yourself only, that's great too.

    It's called communication, flexibility and cooperation. And the LFMs can be changed, y'know?

    Don't let me stand in the way of a good flame war with plenty of drama.

    Oh and I left WOW particularly because only the uberest Tank builds were allowed if you were a melee, and I got tired of the DPS contests and the constant criticism of trying to fit one playstyle or build into a box.

    I like the diversity of DDO. If a fleshie can manage to tanke, so be it. If a melee can manage to CC, more power to 'em, if a pally can act as healer or off-healer, even better. If one or more group members clearly advise that they are interested in something other than their "given" role and everyone is down with that, so am I.

  19. #59
    Founder Laggin's Avatar
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    Default Ok I been trying to stir up some stuff

    Truth be told, cleric is my favorite class. I rolled up a cleric the day this game started. I have three clerics, two favored souls and one Druid. All are different, and played different depending on my mood.

    I played cleric when it was really rough to play cleric. Nobody carried pots of any kind, got blamed for almost every death. You think people get mad when the quest xp goes down when someone dies, there was a time when people lost actual already earned xp when they died, they would go ballistic.

    I think people as a whole have gotten a lot better.

    Now I consider myself pretty self sufficient. Couple of my guys that have to pot it, have trouble keeping up in big fights.

    What I'm talking about is, ok maybe on my ranger I bit off a little more than I can chew. I not above some self criticisms, but to have a cleric stand over me as I'm incapped. Then just leave me there, really? Some clerics are just a bunch of prim madonnas.

    I have never done that to any player even if they were/are a ******.

    That's all I'm saying.
    Don't be mean to me or my guild leader will kick your ^*&
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Try to imagine someone who enjoys playing clerics, PUGs frequently, is intolerant of stupidity, and demonstrates excellent leadership skills.
    The last two are somewhat contradictory IMO, but that's a different argument for a different thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    1. There's no such thing as a "one-toon wrecking machine", or
    2. Clerics/FvS are not good candidates for that role
    Mostly the second. The ones who can really do it are rare from my experience, especially in the PUG scene. Divines who choose not to heal usually justify it on the basis that they can do more for the party with their blue bars offensively, and most of the time that's not really true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Believe it or not, there's an entire culture people who are self-sufficient and enjoy the company of others of like mind. That's why many of us put terms like "BYOH" in our LFMs.

    Why should we be anti-social?
    You shouldn't be. I already said, "BYOH" is an open declaration that if you join, you're responsible for your own heals. When I played a barb, I wasn't able to self-heal properly, and I either went into those groups knowing I'd have to try and probably would die a few times in the process, or I avoided them.

    I'm just saying that while a divine isn't required to use their blue bar for healing, much of the time that is its best use if the goal is to complete the quest quickly and successfully. Especially at the mid and upper heroic levels, where there aren't nearly as many decent self-healing options for classes not designed for it.

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