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  1. #21
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    a cleric that doesnt heal is a defective cleric. just like a fighter that does not fight or an owl that cant see in the dark. sure. there are still other things that the 3 can do. the cleric can cast offensive spells, the fighter can stand and tank without doing any damage and the owl can still fly and maybe survive. but we would not call any of them a good example of their class/species.

  2. #22

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    This essentially comes down to selfishness and laziness on both sides of this debate. Most people want the other party members to support their play style so they can kill more. Non-divine classes want a babysitter so they can go around cleaving everything in sight in hopes that everyone will fall to their knees and worship their awesomeness. Divine classes want everyone to step aside so they can hop around like epileptic crack-heads kiting the dungeon trough their blade barriers in hopes that everyone will fall to their knees and worship their awesomeness. There is a significant difference in tactics for both sides and they are not compatible. Non-divine classes do better when mobs are stationary and divine classes do better when mobs are mobile.

    It is not fun to stand in the back and watch red bars all day and cater to all the demands of the rest of the party. Unless that is the focus of the character and a style the player enjoys. Not everyone does. I know people that do enjoy maintaining the health of the party. Conversely, it is also not fun chasing everything in the dungeon while swinging at air just trying to land a hit listening to the divine scream, "get out of the way" or "don't block the passage" or whatever.

    I also think that divine hirelings have done a disservice to new players by teaching them or coaching them that a divine class is a babysitter. Divine hirelings will toss remove curse, remove disease, remove blindness, remove poison and some others I have missed whenever the player is affected by such things. They have no need to carry anything that can remedy those conditions so later on when they join a real party they expect it from someone else.

    In truth, divine classes are the best healers (or should be) in the game (I know there are builds or players that can do very will on other classes). This does not mean they should be forced into the healbot role but it does mean they should be aware of the party and at least try to keep others alive in a pinch. What would everyone think if the rogue decided they were not a trapper and stood by a trap waiting for the party to die in that trap so they could collect soulstones and sneak them up to the next shrine?

    EVERYONE has the ability to buy and drink potions and most have some ability to use wands or scrolls. This means EVERYONE has the ability to at least handle their own curses, blindness, disease or whatever while fighting. There is also nothing wrong with topping yourself off or tending your own wounds after or between fights.

    Resources are resources. If you refuse to use your own, then someone else has to use theirs, ON YOU. Personally, I would prefer that the divine classes still have their resources when it really matters. In the end, if you are unwilling to use any of your own resources on anyone, including yourself, why would you expect anyone else to use theirs on you?

    Flame on.

  3. #23
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Keep out of byoh lfms.
    WOW, is it that simple? Dont join where you do not belong and you will be fine? That is crazy talk.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    clerics like GH, Blur, stoneskin and other non-traditional healer buffs too.
    Please ask before buffing. In certain quests, part of the strategy was to torc. Buffs like blur and stoneskin were not always appreciated.

  5. #25
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    My take on this is from running nothing but self sufficient toons, and divine hybrid: 12Cleric/6Ranger/2Monk.
    When I was on my divines I was NOT a healer. I did not heal others outside of my aura and bursts. Was it selfish? Not in my opinion. All I needed to keep alive in 99% of the heroic content on Elite was aura/bursts and the occasion heal. On both builds I was primarily a Melee DPS/AA.

    It was my experience then, and on my self sufficient toons that if someone else in the party can not maintain their own health bar without constant help from someone else they are better off as a stone in my bag. I considered my Aura/bursts to be more than enough help.

    I hold any person who joins a BYOH run, or any run without a healer to the same standard I'm holding myself to, and others held me too when I was just starting out in BYOH playstyle. Do you best to keep yourself alive, and if you die, enjoy the pike to the next shrine. Some may say it's selfish, or harsh but you know what? It worked for me.

    Put up, or shut up as they say.

    All of this is of course in the context of BYOH. Outside of those runs, or runs where there is obviously no healer it's a different story. If you have a healer, who is supposed to be healing(IE. it was not posted as, or agreed upon to be a BYOH run) and they aren't for some BS reason, then squelch them and move on.

    But really it comes down to what Vint said; if you don't like the BYOH playstyle, don't join BYOH groups. It really is that simple.
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  6. #26
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Shell View Post
    a cleric that doesnt heal is a defective cleric. just like a fighter that does not fight or an owl that cant see in the dark. sure. there are still other things that the 3 can do. the cleric can cast offensive spells, the fighter can stand and tank without doing any damage and the owl can still fly and maybe survive. but we would not call any of them a good example of their class/species.
    Sorry to tell you but this is not WoW. A tank that doesn't do damage will lose aggro, the cleric can clear the dungeon faster than 5 melee. The first one is a failiure and the second one is a zerger.

    Oh, and this is DDO, we have owlbears here. They don't need to see at night.
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  7. #27
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    I was firmly in the "clerics should heal" camp in the last long discussion and even I do not think they should feel obligated to do so except in emergencies when the LFM says "BYOH".

    That said, I think the offensive capabilities of most clerics are grossly exaggerated on these forums. It is very rare that I run into one that does anywhere near as good a job as a class designed for the purpose.

    (Before the inevitable response: "most" does not mean "all".)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something? Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?

    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    no one is "obligated" to do anything. this is a game.

    My clerics often run and post BYOH lfms. It means I'm interested in playing the game. NOT staring at red bars. It means I'm not running particularly difficult content, just wouldnt mind some company.

    My aura is going and I use my bursts.... If you want heals... stay close.
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  9. #29
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    What was the point of starting this all over again when the prior shillelagh waving thread is still ongoing? Pure unadulterated trolling?

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  10. #30
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    This looked like a line from a bad joke.

    "A Cleric joined a BYOH LFM"

    The punchline should be "And no ***** were given that quest"

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something?
    NO!
    The fact you believe that the game pops up a EULA dialog box upon selected the cleric or FVS classes obligating the player explains a lot. Perhaps actually rolling one will help you deal with this psychosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?
    To be brutally honest (since you are trolling), many BYOH groups are going to zerg the quest. That fighter would have to run at top speed to beat the monks/barb travel speed and the ranged attacks/spells. You flatter yourself to think that anyone would care about missing your paltry contribution. If you were polite, they might even let you continue. If you were rude (like your post), expect the boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    If you don't want an honest discussion, don't troll. Obviously the cleric is going to heal... its a BYOH group, who is going to heal the cleric? Oh... you mean heal YOU!

    Most BYOH players are glad to throw a heal in an emergency, or if a high HP toon is way down and trying to self heal. The focus isn't on the heal, it is on the "obligated". Your fighter isn't obligated to run in circles trying to melee mobs being kited by an archer, nor is that fighter obligated to stand and wait for charm monster to expire to kill a straggler. In the same way, BYOH means the cleric does not have to coddle stupid or rude manasponges.

    If you can't get a heal in a BYOH group on a regular basis... the probably probably isn't "BYOH".

  12. #32
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    If I join a BYOH on my Cleric, I DEFINITELY heal - that's what Radiant Servant is for, right? Just don't get too far away from me during a big fight...

    Oh, wait, did you mean healing SPELLS??? Pffft - SP is for offense, not healing

    (Ok, ok, I also carry Heal scrolls if I'm feeling particularly generous...)


    I will heal in the heat of battle as well. But more people could invest in UMD and displacement clickies
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something? Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?

    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    "Hey, uh, I don't know anything about your character except I think there's part of it that gives me the right to your blue bar or something like that..."


    ROFLMAO

    Its like people saying "If a fighter joins he better tank. What? You didn't create your character to tank? If you don't want to tank don't be a fighter!"

    Why are you trying to tell other people what to do with their character?

  14. #34
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    This thread has been posted many times before, and basically everyone agrees on the middle ground, and only a few want to characterize these debates as being on extremes.

    There is one extreme that portrays the scenario as a spectacular cleric joins a party runs ahead of everyone dropping blade barriers and cometfalls demolishing the opposition while everyone else is tripping over their own swords dying halfway across the map demanding heals and blaming the cleric for their deaths. Presenting this extreme one argues that clerics don't have any obligation

    The other extreme portrays the scenario where a spectacular fighter who is leading the kill count gets "unavoidably" tripped, held, stunned, etc and a cleric who has been doing nothing all run but twiddling their thumbs at the bottom of the kill count just watches them die laughing maniacally about it being a BYOH group.

    The middle ground is that basically everyone is contributing to the damage and crowd control output in a relatively competent way, some better than others. In these cases even in a BYOH group a well run cleric has enough spare sp and attention span to be able to toss any other player a heal when they get in a tight spot. This has been my experience for the majority of the time and its how I play when on my healing class in a BYOH group.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ddodoesitagain View Post
    Please ask before buffing. In certain quests, part of the strategy was to torc. Buffs like blur and stoneskin were not always appreciated.
    Choke on your Torc... I mean congratulations...
    Note to self... run more DQ's only 10 more to 100 completions....and still no base Torc....
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  16. #36
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    If a cleric joining your group means it's no longer BYOH, put that in the LFM please. A proper BYOH group is so much fun that I'll switch to my cleric to run them... and if you take the "BYOH" off after I join, I'll drop.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Choke on your Torc... I mean congratulations...
    Note to self... run more DQ's only 10 more to 100 completions....and still no base Torc....
    I know that Tovans Hammer gives the same effect as the Torc, is there any other items that do it as well?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    This thread has been posted many times before, and basically everyone agrees on the middle ground, and only a few want to characterize these debates as being on extremes.

    There is one extreme that portrays the scenario as a spectacular cleric joins a party runs ahead of everyone dropping blade barriers and cometfalls demolishing the opposition while everyone else is tripping over their own swords dying halfway across the map demanding heals and blaming the cleric for their deaths. Presenting this extreme one argues that clerics don't have any obligation

    The other extreme portrays the scenario where a spectacular fighter who is leading the kill count gets "unavoidably" tripped, held, stunned, etc and a cleric who has been doing nothing all run but twiddling their thumbs at the bottom of the kill count just watches them die laughing maniacally about it being a BYOH group.

    The middle ground is that basically everyone is contributing to the damage and crowd control output in a relatively competent way, some better than others. In these cases even in a BYOH group a well run cleric has enough spare sp and attention span to be able to toss any other player a heal when they get in a tight spot. This has been my experience for the majority of the time and its how I play when on my healing class in a BYOH group.
    LOL, I completely agree with your synopsis. My issue isn't whether a Cleric should toss out a heal if someone's in a bad spot but that this attitude that Clerics must heal leads to players having no regard for their own HP because they have a Nanny that will always "make it better" no matter what idiotic move they pull. And it is this attitude on the part of many players that Cleric = Nanny that is leading many Clerics to only join, or even create BYOH groups. They are tired of babysitting and then being blamed when someone's own stupid actions causes them to die.

    The sooner players realize that a Cleric's blue bar does not = their red bar and also start taking responsibility for their own actions causing their deaths, the sooner Clerics might just stop feeling forced to join / create BYOH LFMs just to have fun playing.
    Last edited by HAL; 07-25-2013 at 10:44 AM.

  19. #39
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Yeah, can you believe the nerve of some people?

    Just the other day I was on my Sorcerer and joined group with a Fighter. I gave her a stack of heal scrolls and told her to keep me up.

    When push came to shove, I didn't get a single heal!

    Gosh, I could have healed my self but for crying out loud, she should have stepped it up.

  20. #40
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something? Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?

    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    Alas... you have just hit upon the very reason I do not join BYOH groups..... despite the fact that I BMoH years before it was popular.. and champained for self efficiency on the forums.

    ... because way too often "BYOH" really means "Every man for himself."




    IMO, professional adventurers bring the tools they need to complete quests....... like potions to treat their own ails...

    Professionals also know the tricks of the trade... like tactics to not die. (althogh adventuring is a hazardous trade.. and accidents do happen.)

    Some tricks of the trade involve watching their own health and that of others in their parties.
    Watching blue map dots and being aware of where people are and if they need help.
    Knowing when they are overmatached and backing out to heal up.

    Professional Clerics are especially good at healing and saving others who are in trouble.

    But professionals of every class have abilities that they can (and gladly) use to help others in need.





    ... THAT... is the groups I desire.

    Groups that go in with whoever they can get... Cleric or no Cleric... they bring what they need to complete the quest.

    But they also help each other as best that they can.


    Sadly... this not what "BYOH" usually means (although it might).
    BYOH attracts too many soloist who can't be bothered to slow down to help anyone but themselves.
    BYOH attracts too many XP/Minute race horses.... who blame others for deaths.




    Best (short) LFM comments I can come up with, that is closest to maybe being what I want, is "all welcome."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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