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  1. #221
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    it may not always be the character though. it could be player skills. if that's the case, than the player should re-roll?
    If only that were possible. I have met so many toons that were just dying to shine if they could only get a free LR on their player they would p0wn it.


  2. #222
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    "Self sufficient" groups often have no trapper AND no healer. What do you do when you have no trapper? And why don't you do that same thing if a rogue or arti joins but can't trap?

    Same applies to divines: what would you do if you didn't have one in-party? Why don't you do that same thing after one joins?
    most traps don't 1 shot you, even on elite. well, except the poison traps in Red Fang.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    If a party doesn't have a trapper, then players must either use timing or rely on heals after passing through. I only met one rogue who claimed not to trap - a horc with a greataxe. Party was ticked, since the truck didn't say anything until he was asked to clear the first trap in quest. There was much speculation about what he had done with all those skill points, since Examine showed him to be pure rogue. Party recalled and reformed without him, and we picked up a real trapper in the process.

    Honestly, refusing to do what one's class does better than any other is deviant, and courtesy demands that such limitations be revealed prior to quest. Doing otherwise is fraud.

    Edit: Fixed a censored word. :#
    LOL, Rogue / Arti does not = trapper <sigh> and calling people names will not make it so.

  4. #224
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    it may not always be the character though. it could be player skills. if that's the case, than the player should re-roll?
    For this topic, it does not matter. No matter what, where, when, why or how you think a player should play, they will do the opposite. Not saying you are wrong with how you think people should “play”, I just think it is a double standard if they want to tell a healer how to play, but they refuse to tell others how they should play. (no matter how gimp that toon is)>
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  5. #225
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    I'm a solo player, for the most part, and this is one of the reasons why. Debates over how other people should play their characters, and what the roles of each class are in a party.

    That being said....whats wrong with clerics healing? I do understand that if youre a cleric, youre nobody's nanny. You should not have to top everyone off after every fight and see that they are all at 100&. Out-of-combat healing should be each player's individual responsibility.

    But in the middle of combat? Ok....if I'm the fighter, taking all the aggro and the heavy damage, and you're the cleric, and you're not seeing to it that I stay healed WHILE I'm taking all the aggro and all the heavy damage, guess what? Im'a back off from the fight, start swigging CSW pots, (because, let's face it, it's not easy to swing away at the mobs all around me while also trying to heal the 300 HP of damage one just did to me with one crit, and I'm drinking pots that only heal like 30HP at a time...when one Heal spell from Mr. "I'm a cleric but I don't heal" would do the trick), and happily drink away while the mobs all come after you! Then when you're getting your butt pounded, and you yell for help..."Sorry, cant help ya....busy healing myself...now, if there was, say, a cleric around who would have done that, maybe, I could help you out right now."
    Last edited by Philibusta; 07-26-2013 at 06:52 PM.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  6. #226
    Hero Marcus-Hawkeye's Avatar
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    I generally try not to put anyone else into a predetermined box. If I see a cleric icon in group, I do not expect a babysitter. I don't tell people how to play their toons. Having said that, if I'm barely able to stand next to a healing class, barely able to quaff a potion because I have two broken arms and all I can taste is blood when I actually do get the potion up to my mouth and they don't throw me some sort of help it certainly tells me a lot about the player.

  7. #227
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    That being said....whats wrong with clerics healing? "
    I think they are tired of being burdened with a party. If a cleric joins a run with 5 good -melee and does not have to worry about being yelled at “HJEAL ME”, every 2 seconds, they will have a good day. But, the next pug they jump in has 5 terrible players and they keep getting told to heal, rez, hold my hand, blah blah, they get frustrated.

    Now with BYOH, they are not restricted to being a crutch. There are only a few quests in this game that require a healer. When I see an LFM saying “healer only”, I think to myself, these people need a crutch for their sloppy gameplay.
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  8. #228
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    That is the best part if I read this right the OP never actually died and was a ranger to boot.

    If I understand it properly he went down got some minor heals to get back up and was left to his own devices. Dude you are a Ranger you have healing spells and if not you should have pots afterall you joined a BYOH group!

    LOLz

    This is why I try and avoid the BYOH scene, too many people interpreting what it means to suit them rather than just thinking about the group as a whole and working to complete the quest.
    *sigh* you know even at level 25 I see rangers and pallys and even some bards like this. They have low hp and don't even top themselves up just wait around looking at all the other party members expectantly. The rangers that supprise me the most are the ones who boast about their 1600 sp.........then they don't slot cure's, or even fom but thanks mate for the constant mass camo my paladin really feels better with that buff. And yeah I feel a bit jealous of that 1600 sp on my 600 sp paladin, even though I got a torc, bauble and stuff, i dont wear all my sp items yet. But over 1000 sp whats the point of it all? When you dont even slot cures? fom, resists? That razor cat is so useful in epics.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    most traps don't 1 shot you, even on elite. well, except the poison traps in Red Fang.
    As I said: "what would you do if you didn't have one in-party? Why don't you do that same thing after one joins?"

    What does your answer have to do with this question?

  10. #230
    Founder Laggin's Avatar
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    I had diehard, i got up on my own and healed myself. just asked for a heal while i was incapped. healed myself fine, except for that one time.

    all i am asking is, instead of standing over me, just throw a heal. if that is whining, then im whining.
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  11. #231
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I certainly hope that all those people whining about having to gimp their toons in the enhancements pass by accomodating the new heal skill aren't byoh clerics. You simply don't need that much juice to heal yourself.

  12. #232
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    most traps don't 1 shot you, even on elite. well, except the poison traps in Red Fang.
    Lots of traps hit you twice in such rapid succession that it's hard to distinguish it from a one shot unless you look through the combat log. The combat log is so user unfriendly that i can totally understand why people would not bother to do that.

  13. #233
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    "Self sufficient" groups often have no trapper AND no healer. What do you do when you have no trapper? And why don't you do that same thing if a rogue or arti joins but can't trap?
    Wait, You're asking me to imagine that I just got someone in my group that could not figure out how to make a rogue that could DPS and do traps?

    I always give people the benefit of the doubt, I accept any build into my groups, because I believe creative people can be really impressive sometimes, but, Wow, Ok, to be honest, at that moment I just started to really question if they are worth the scaling they just added to the dungeon.

  14. #234
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laggin View Post
    Isn't he/she obligated to heal, even a little? Didn't they take an oath or something? Suppose a fighter joined and didn't fight?

    If you don't want to heal, don't be a cleric.
    BYOH - means Be Your Own Healer.
    So to aplicate to BYOH u basically have to not die, proceed the quest and heal yourself.
    Cleric does it good if he heals himself and fight.
    Fighter is not being good in byoh group if he doesnt fight or doesnt heal himself.
    So to be honest cleric healing only himself in BYOH group is good player. Ppl who demand healing from him or dont heal themselves are bad players.

    But truth is no one is forcing you to join BYOH group.
    My main is fvs and I dont put up BYOH lfms because I see no problem in casting heal here and there during or between fights.
    But if someone is playing divine and is putting BYOH groups its their choice. You cant forbid them that.

    From my experience BYOH groups are mostly groups telling:
    "Hey, Im in progess of doin quest, I can solo it - if u want completion and can take care of youself - join".
    For lots of players BYOH means also fast completion with no problems.


    Because as friendly player as I am... When I see LFM "Everyone is welcome, be a party player" or sth like that - I dont see nice 6 players who proceed thro quest. Most of time its 2/6 ok players and 4/6 -> do it for me because I cant players who expect you to :solo: quest for them with them on your back.
    No. Thanks.


    Anyway.
    If ranger doesnt shoot but melee - does it mean hes a bad ranger?
    If wizzard dont CC but do damage (e.g. shiradi focused builds) - does it mean its bad wizzard?
    If a monk is not wisdom but str monk - does it mean its bad monk?
    So not healing others cleric is ok as long as he says it before joining a group.
    Last edited by Kayla93; 07-26-2013 at 08:50 PM.

  15. #235
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Wait, You're asking me to imagine that I just got someone in my group that could not figure out how to make a rogue that could DPS and do traps?

    I always give people the benefit of the doubt, I accept any build into my groups, because I believe creative people can be really impressive sometimes, but, Wow, Ok, to be honest, at that moment I just started to really question if they are worth the scaling they just added to the dungeon.
    On a side note, was running foundation of discord on elite with my tr buddy who is an artificer the other day. He has a static 45 disable dc at level 15. And he blew up the box. What's up with that? Did they raise the dc's on these traps when they upgraded gianthold?

    Running through the trap with my tempest ranger, i rolled a 16(+25) on my evasion check, and got creamed. That's pretty rough for a level 13 quest.

  16. #236
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I think they are tired of being burdened with a party. If a cleric joins a run with 5 good -melee and does not have to worry about being yelled at “HJEAL ME”, every 2 seconds, they will have a good day. But, the next pug they jump in has 5 terrible players and they keep getting told to heal, rez, hold my hand, blah blah, they get frustrated.

    Now with BYOH, they are not restricted to being a crutch. There are only a few quests in this game that require a healer. When I see an LFM saying “healer only”, I think to myself, these people need a crutch for their sloppy gameplay.
    Cool. So that means when I'm on my wizard, I can put up an LFM that says BYOB (Bring Your Own Buffs) and then everyone else can Haste and Heroism and Displace and all that other stuff for themselves, right? Cause if I can't expect a cleric in the group to heal me when I need it (keep in mind, outside of intense combat situations, I DO expect to heal myself)...then I sure as heck ain't gonna be their buffbot and use up a bunch of SP I could save to buff myself and nuke stuff.

    I guess my point is....this kind of thinking leads to a party working less like an actual group, working TOGETHER to accomplish something, and more like 6 soloists who just happen to be running the same quest at the same time.

    I'm NOT saying that the cleric should have to hold everyone's hand and keep them topped up at all times. By no means. But, if we're all in the middle of intense combat, and I'm fighting off a bunch of mobs, I have no time to stop and swill a whole 20 or 30 CSW pots. That's when I kind of think the cleric should do some actual healing.
    Last edited by Philibusta; 07-26-2013 at 10:15 PM.
    All that is wrong with DDO, life, taxes, poltics, religion, music, fast food, education, the criminal justice system, the weather, society, the universe, and previously-discontinued-but-now-on-their-way-back snack cakes, is all the fault of Wizards of the Coast. I know this because Fred told me so, and Mind Flayers are smart.

  17. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    I guess my point is....this kind of thinking leads to a party working less like an actual group, working TOGETHER to accomplish something, and more like 6 soloists who just happen to be running the same quest at the same time.
    I find that 6 soloists running the same quest work together as a group far better than a group of "play your role" characters.

    How many quests have that mechanic where you have to hit two levers, one a ways to the left and one a ways to the right in order to open the door in the center to progress? The 6 soloists split up and hit both levers at once, and do this quickly and efficiently just by noticing on the map which side has fewer people running to it. Then they meet back at the center door and head on through. This is exceptional teamwork, working as a group.

    The "play your role" group, OTOH, has to take everyone to both sides, one at a time. Much slower. This extends past the levers issue to include optionals.

    I'm NOT saying that the cleric should have to hold everyone's hand and keep them topped up at all times. By no means. But, if we're all in the middle of intense combat, and I'm fighting off a bunch of mobs, I have no time to stop and swill a whole 20 or 30 CSW pots. That's when I kind of think the cleric should do some actual healing.
    Ugh, if you need in-combat healing you aren't really meeting the minimum requirement of BYOH.

    And to answer your question, yes, I would much prefer the arcanes in my groups NOT buff me, saving their mana for more useful purposes.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    LOL, Rogue / Arti does not = trapper <sigh> and calling people names will not make it so.
    Cannot speak on arti, since I haven't run one, yet. I know rogue; it takes conscious effort to gimp a rogue so it cannot trap. Also, censored word I edited out was not calling anyone names.
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  19. #239
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    When one of my Divines joins a BYOH I expect to heal actively in the heat of battle or not because I can do more than one thing at a time, (well most of the time, start getting tired and I can tunnel vision like anyone) and I don't mind saving other party members resources doing what I do better than they do, and with less resources. Currently I'm running a fresh bladeforged melee soul, guards build that is a blast I will post the build for it here soon. Up to lvl23 and already healed a handful of EE's mostly effectively, some tunnel vision occasionally. Anyway not to sound elitist but its the rare BYOH I've joined where I didn't wonder what they would have done without active healing. Theres always someone maybe they joined when they saw a healer join, maybe they justdont want to burn through 9tps a pop sovereign healing store pots, or take the time to swap to a scroll and UMD gear.

    Healing (while also doing okay DPS) is I find one of the most challenging and rewarding things to do in DDO. It's also one of the most powerful. If you haven't solo healed an elite shroud or many of the raids that pretty much require healers, then you don't know the arenaline rush of knowing you were the reason that anyone lived long enough to get larges or raid chests. Of course it goes the other way too, though its surprisingly rare for anyone to point at the healer. I like to just say it when I screwed up, or lost controll, keeps things real.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus-Hawkeye View Post
    I generally try not to put anyone else into a predetermined box. If I see a cleric icon in group, I do not expect a babysitter. I don't tell people how to play their toons. Having said that, if I'm barely able to stand next to a healing class, barely able to quaff a potion because I have two broken arms and all I can taste is blood when I actually do get the potion up to my mouth and they don't throw me some sort of help it certainly tells me a lot about the player.
    Speaking as a player who has several clerics, who actively enjoys playing the nanny, and who is often complemented on the healing I gave, I think even this statement -- which sounds really reasonable on the surface -- fails to do the subject justice.

    I've found that being in the nanny role requires a very different mental orientation than regular play, and the important point for this thread is that so would BYOHing.


    Nanny: As a nanny I am almost completely focused on the party's red bars. I am trying to get a feel for who is taking damage at what rate so I know what level of healing won't be overkill. I have one finger on the key of whichever player seems most likely to need urgent healing. The rest of my awareness is dedicated to trying to keep track of where people are, trying to stay alive, and a bunch of other peripheral things. In that mode I'm mostly stationary (or walking into walls! ).

    When it happens that my skills are not needed and I get bored, I sometimes switch into combat mode and drop a spell or take some swings -- and that usually ends up coming back to bite the party because now my attention is focused on things other than what healing the party needs. In those few seconds I've completely lost track of all the awareness I discussed in the previous paragraph.


    Standard: When soloing or otherwise not in nanny mode, I'm paying attention to everything at once. I'm mostly focused on my immediate surroundings, plus giving glances at the party red bars as often as I can. But when someone goes low, whether I can do anything about it is much more hit-or-miss. And of course, just as my healing efficiency is down, so is my offensive efficiency.


    BYOH: I don't actually do BYOH, really. Why would I, when I enjoy being the healer? But if I did it with one of my clerics, the whole point would be to focus on things other than healing. I would be every bit as focused as in Nanny mode, but on other things: switching weapons to do the best damage, positioning my BBs right, trying to keep track of the mobs' save types, and so on. Oh, and staying alive and healing myself.


    So what does this have to do with the post I quoted?

    When I'm in that BYOH mode, if you're right next to me and barely able to stand, barely able to quaff a potion because you have two broken arms, and all you can taste is blood when you actually do get the potion up to your mouth, what makes you think I would be aware of any of this? The LFM said BYOH, so what that tells me is, hey, for once I get to actually ignore the party's red bars so I can focus on everything else!

    (And yes, even then, if I actually noticed your red bar was in danger, I'd do something about it -- just as I would if I was playing my 12/8 ranger/rogue with much more limited healing ability.)

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