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  1. #61
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I'm speaking about the heroic versions.

    For me, it has a lot to do with my gear set up while leveling. While leveling I build for survivability first and foremost. It makes soloing elite streaks to cap easier, when instead of having teh uber DPS, you are basically unkillable with okay DPS. This of course changes on the situation and I make gear swaps when more DPS is needed. I use them all up until I get my GS. At which point nothing is better than my collection of LitII/Triple Fire/Triple Ice/Triple Posi/Triple Earth.

    And I have a slew of really tasty lootgen weapons as well, my favorite being a ML12 +3 Paralyzing longbow of Pure Good(colorless slot, force ritual, festivult icy)

    I just like a lot of versatility and option in my play.
    To each their own I suppose.
    I did mention loot gen items, with para, banish, smiters and others, what I was getting at in my posts is why the heroic versions of the bow of elements air and the thornlord, they have crappy dps and no CC or utility value really. I really don't see what they offer and why anyone would chose them over the silver bow. They are dps weapons the silverbow is a dps weapon, the silverbow is a better dps weapon.

    A para bow is a CC weapon which you can upgrade to have more dps, and yes I loved my para bow, icybursted and with pure good, With improved precis shot you can lock down multiple mobs at those levels.

    Sorry I don't see how the shocking burst on the bow of elements air or the......... well nothing much on the thornlord makes you more survivable than when your using the silverbow. Parabow yes, greensteel bows yes, banishers and smiters and other loot gen yes. But repeating myself yet again, bow of elements air and thornlord............eh?

    Can you please just lay it out for me simply?

    I prefer the bow of elements air over the silver bow because it has this.......

    I prefer the thornlord over the silverbow because it offers this ..... which the silverbow does not.

    Im sorry I just don't get it.

  2. #62
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Can you please just lay it out for me simply?

    I prefer the bow of elements air over the silver bow because it has this.......

    I prefer the thornlord over the silverbow because it offers this ..... which the silverbow does not.

    Im sorry I just don't get it.
    I don't prefer any of them over the other, as I said I use them all as the situation calls for it.

    I use the Bow of Elements[Air] When mobs are immune to CC, or holy. Because unless I misunderstood the math, the higher base damage of the Bow of Elements[Air] along with the added effects(That few mobs are immune to) are worth more than the expanded crit range on the Silver Bow when you have a low str and low damage mob from outside sources. (eg I don't use The Bloodstone while leveling. So no Seeker bonus. Usually don't pick up Favored Enemy enhancements till closer to cap, Not always an arti around..)

    And I haven't used the Thornlord yet. I only just pulled one this life finally while I was at cap, but I'm looking forward to testing it out while leveling.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I don't use The Bloodstone while leveling. So no Seeker bonus.
    Ring of the Stalker? Manslayer is yummy while leveling. With masterful you get ML10 Manslayer, Seeker +4, Excp Sneak +1. (At ML14 add ghost touch.)

  4. #64
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    I suck at math, so cant verify, if you took that into consideration, but Sinew has x4 crit multiplier on 19 - 20 and x3 on 17 - 18 (assuming imp. crit). That either makes it even less capable of reaching the breaking point to over DPS Ardency, or little more capable. If you took that into consideration, then you have my utter respect!
    Yes its factored in the x4 on only a 19-20 doesn't give you more then a 10% boost over 17-20/x3. The Sinew vs Ardency was a bit tricky but it ranged from 77 - 124 depending on seeker amounts Its such a wide gap because the Sinew bow has built in seeker. I went with the maxed comparison where you have seeker 10 to get the 124
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 07-26-2013 at 03:18 AM.

  5. #65
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Ring of the Stalker? Manslayer is yummy while leveling. With masterful you get ML10 Manslayer, Seeker +4, Excp Sneak +1. (At ML14 add ghost touch.)
    I really would love to, and I've been considering it for my main. She usually has the almost perfect set up for survivability while leveling because of raid gear. I'd have to look into swapping some stuff around though to work the ring in. I farmed the madness chain like crazy when it gave those no ML rings and I use 2 of them from level 1-12/13 most of the time on every toon.

    NoML Con+6 ring of Greater False Life
    NoML Dex+6 Ring of Heavy Fort.

    It's really hard to find an excuse to replace those before level 12/13 when you start getting raid gear back.
    But I haven't looked into all the new upgraded lowbie twink gear yet tbh. All those new slots on things may give me a chance to change my set up, or at the very least give me some swap gear for a more DPS oriented gear set while leveling when survivability isn't the number 1 priority.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  6. #66
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure for pure dps at low levels, scrag bow is the best. For 14+ unwavering ardency is the best and for end game Pinion is the best.

    Assuming you're well equipped with high strength.

  7. #67
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Yes its factored in the x4 on only a 19-20 doesn't give you more then a 10% boost over 17-20/x3. The Sinew vs Ardency was a bit tricky but it ranged from 77 - 124 depending on seeker amounts Its such a wide gap because the Sinew bow has built in seeker. I went with the maxed comparison where you have seeker 10 to get the 124
    so, with 0 seeker that means they equal in damage with a +77? Wow thaths a huge gap at heroic lvs.

  8. #68
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    so, with 0 seeker that means they equal in damage with a +77? Wow thaths a huge gap at heroic lvs.
    Yes Bow of Sinew has very low base damage and no added damage effects. Mathematically the difference in crit profile is the same as the difference between a Khopesh and Scimitar its kind of like comparing a +5 Khopesh of Seeker 8 to a Lit 2 Scimitar in a lot of ways

    Base damage on the Ardency rangers from 5-27 (2d12+3) where the Bow of Sinew ranges from 6-13 (1d8+5) that gives the Ardency a lot of base damage the Sinew bow needs to make up for.

  9. #69
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Silver Bow. What's the deal?...
    Should the whole post be read in a Seinfeld voice or just the first part?

  10. #70
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Im sorry im a bit confused are you talking about the epic bow of elements air and thornlord or the heroic level weapons? Because the heroic level items don't stack up to the silverbow at all they are terrible.

    Silverbow +3 holy 2d6 vs evil, 1d10 base and the killer 19-20 threat range x 3

    Bow of elements air +5 shocking burst 1d6 electric damage, 2d10 on a crit 1.5 1d8 base damage and 20 threat with a *3 multiplier

    For players without bow strength and seeker items, the Bow of Elements (air or ice) its basically a wash even against non-evil opponents. The Silver is going to do 7-29 per regular shot, and 15-55 per crit; while the Elements will do 8-25 per regular shot and 20-69 per crit. The Silver crits more often, but the Elements crits for more so they average out damage per shot-wise.

    So for characters without seeker items using a bow as a backup weapon, Air or Ice is just fine. Even with +3 seeker it is still pretty close to be a wash.

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Dont forget otherthings like racial enhancements, favoured enemy,blood stone and other things that also get multiplied by crits.

    This is a big one a lot of players forget, or just don't fully understand. Anything that gives a +3 or greater modifier to bow damage or seeker will swing things in favor of the Silver. If someone is using a bow as his/her main weapon, you are absolutely right: they will definitely want to use Silver instead of either Elements bow (except, possibly, against undead).

  11. #71
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Should the whole post be read in a Seinfeld voice or just the first part?
    lol

  12. #72
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    For players without bow strength and seeker items, the Bow of Elements (air or ice) its basically a wash even against non-evil opponents. The Silver is going to do 7-29 per regular shot, and 15-55 per crit; while the Elements will do 8-25 per regular shot and 20-69 per crit. The Silver crits more often, but the Elements crits for more so they average out damage per shot-wise.

    So for characters without seeker items using a bow as a backup weapon, Air or Ice is just fine. Even with +3 seeker it is still pretty close to be a wash.




    This is a big one a lot of players forget, or just don't fully understand. Anything that gives a +3 or greater modifier to bow damage or seeker will swing things in favor of the Silver. If someone is using a bow as his/her main weapon, you are absolutely right: they will definitely want to use Silver instead of either Elements bow (except, possibly, against undead).
    Ok thanks..... the guy I was replying to though was a ranger so he had bow str but he didnt take racial enemies and said he had low str and no seeker so I guess that makes sense......but how low a str do you need for bow of elements air to pull ahead 14 total buffed?

    I would carry the silverbow, a icybursted para pure good bow, banisher icey bursted, a smiter, often with pure good or annarchic on em and a good thrower just in case I ran out of ammo lol, plus other various bows and I was playing a tempest ranger back in the day, add in all the weapons for 2wf it all took up a lot of space. But I also remember pulling a acid bow from tor I was not that impressed with it put it on the ah and it sold for an stupid amount of plat. I asked why and people told me because it looked cool.......... just from the people I know it seems that to me that a lot of the people who rangers are the ones who care the most about how their toons look. Had friends and people in guild who have sets of armour and weapons just for cosmetic purposes only. I just found that different I was struggling for space on my ranger, add in things like pots and scrolls.........cosmetic gear just was a low piority.

    Sorry I know ive been going way off topic but I think if there was ever a fashion show in ddo or a best dress award most of the final contestants would be rangers.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-26-2013 at 07:49 PM.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    For players without bow strength and seeker items, the Bow of Elements (air or ice) its basically a wash even against non-evil opponents.
    Players without bow strength would be better off using a thrower instead of a bow because throwers give str mod to damage.

  14. #74
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    I'm pretty sure for pure dps at low levels, scrag bow is the best. For 14+ unwavering ardency is the best and for end game Pinion is the best.

    Assuming you're well equipped with high strength.
    I do think silver longbow is usually better than Scrag bow. Other than that,

    Pinion is just better than everything, unless you have a few thousand points of damage bonus in which case sinew wins. Or if you need a special kind of DR broken like bludgeon.

    Ardency, has already been shown to beat Sinew until you get a hundred or so points of damage bonus (depending on how much seeker you have off weapon to catch up with Sinew's built in +8). It also beats epic thornlord with +5 arcane arrows against an enemy with no fire resistence and ignoring thornlord's slots, and pretty much loses otherwise. So kind of a toss up there, whether you want the slots and ability to hit more things at full potential, or if you want the defensive bonuses Ardency gives. And Ardency's better looks

    Silver longbow is better than Scrag for the levels you should be using it, ie not endgame (Scrag bow is also a lower ML, 4, compared to silver longbow's 8, due to this thread being aimed at newbs I assume they will not have played long enough to have picked up an old silver longbow, or if they did and had the foresight to hoard it, also did enough research/experience to figure this out themselves). Just as a quick math comparison, without improved critical, since the feat not only requires BAB 8, but also favors the silver longbow even more (after all, it expands the silver longbow's threat range by 2 and the scrag bow's range by just 1). Assume we have a perfect to hit bonus, even though this may not be true.

    Definition of variables in my formulas:
    D = each point of physical damage bonus. For example, +2 strength gives one point of this.
    S = seeker.
    W = number of additional base weapon damages. At low levels, this is generally only achieved through point blank shot.

    Without improved critical:

    Scrag bow has 2[1d8] base damage, or an average of 9, with a +2 enhancement bonus. It crits on 20 only. Therefore, each point of damage bonus gives effectively 1.05 points of damage. Each seeker point adds .15 points of damage. Each additional [W] is +4.725 points of damage. It has no other special effects (other than red slot, but since silver longbow has one too, and red slots affect the bows equally, I will ignore it). So the formula for scrag bow is

    11.55 + 1.05D + .15S + 4.725W

    Silver longbow has 1[1d10] base damage, or an average of 5.5, with a +3 enhancement bonus. It crits on 19-20. Each point of damage bonus effectively gives 1.15 points of damage. Each seeker point adds .3 damage. Each [W] is +6.325 points of damage. Also, there are average 7 points of holy damage. The formula is then:

    9.775 + 1.15D + .3S + 6.325W + 7 holy (if applicable)

    TLDR on the math, comparing, Silver longbow is better than Scrag bow everywhere except it starts 1.775 points of base damage behind scrag bow. Simply allowing holy damage to apply will easily make up for this. Moving into point blank shot range gives +1.6 damage, almost making up for it. Each point of damage bonus puts the silver longbow closes the gap by .1 points, and each seeker closes it by .15. As I said before, these calculations were without improved crit and actually having the feat will cut the gap to a negligible .08, while also making each D, S, and W worth more. A decently geared character built specifically for archery should easily close the gap even if the holy damage doesn't apply.

  15. #75
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Ok thanks..... the guy I was replying to though was a ranger so he had bow str but he didnt take racial enemies and said he had low str and no seeker so I guess that makes sense......but how low a str do you need for bow of elements air to pull ahead 14 total buffed?

    I would carry the silverbow, a icybursted para pure good bow, banisher icey bursted, a smiter, often with pure good or annarchic on em and a good thrower just in case I ran out of ammo lol, plus other various bows and I was playing a tempest ranger back in the day, add in all the weapons for 2wf it all took up a lot of space. But I also remember pulling a acid bow from tor I was not that impressed with it put it on the ah and it sold for an stupid amount of plat. I asked why and people told me because it looked cool.......... just from the people I know it seems that to me that a lot of the people who rangers are the ones who care the most about how their toons look. Had friends and people in guild who have sets of armour and weapons just for cosmetic purposes only. I just found that different I was struggling for space on my ranger, add in things like pots and scrolls.........cosmetic gear just was a low piority.

    Sorry I know ive been going way off topic but I think if there was ever a fashion show in ddo or a best dress award most of the final contestants would be rangers.
    *Girl
    And it's alright, I don't mind a bit of off topic in my thread, as long as it doesn't devolve into debates on how to play your toons, or any of that jazz.

    To put it into perspective a bit, right now at cap in an off destiny before I buff I have roughly 32ish str. .(10K stars build so 44 wisdom before buffs) So while leveling I didn't really have very high DPS, especially with bows before say level 12 where I got 10Kstars, manyshot and all my GS. Before that I'd only use a bow when manyshot was off timer. I also took my ranger levels last so I didn't take most of my ranged feats till very late in the leveling process.

    And Yes, I do care a lot about how my toons look. Took me a month of agonizing to convince myself the advantages of Helf over elf were worth that horrendous face... I have a set of armor and weapons I wear when I'm not questing a lot because I find them more appealing to look at than what I need for questing. I'm not entirely sure why, but I have noticed it being a Ranger thing as well. It's rather peculiar actually.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  16. #76
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    *Girl
    And it's alright, I don't mind a bit of off topic in my thread, as long as it doesn't devolve into debates on how to play your toons, or any of that jazz.

    To put it into perspective a bit, right now at cap in an off destiny before I buff I have roughly 32ish str. .(10K stars build so 44 wisdom before buffs) So while leveling I didn't really have very high DPS, especially with bows before say level 12 where I got 10Kstars, manyshot and all my GS. Before that I'd only use a bow when manyshot was off timer. I also took my ranger levels last so I didn't take most of my ranged feats till very late in the leveling process.

    And Yes, I do care a lot about how my toons look. Took me a month of agonizing to convince myself the advantages of Helf over elf were worth that horrendous face... I have a set of armor and weapons I wear when I'm not questing a lot because I find them more appealing to look at than what I need for questing. I'm not entirely sure why, but I have noticed it being a Ranger thing as well. It's rather peculiar actually.
    I guess I don't really care about fashion too much but some of the armour sets in DDO are just............. like the worst of the 80's or something lol.

  17. #77
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I guess I don't really care about fashion too much but some of the armour sets in DDO are just............. like the worst of the 80's or something lol.
    Hahaha I can certainly agree with that last part!
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I really would love to, and I've been considering it for my main. She usually has the almost perfect set up for survivability while leveling because of raid gear. I'd have to look into swapping some stuff around though to work the ring in. I farmed the madness chain like crazy when it gave those no ML rings and I use 2 of them from level 1-12/13 most of the time on every toon.

    NoML Con+6 ring of Greater False Life
    NoML Dex+6 Ring of Heavy Fort.

    It's really hard to find an excuse to replace those before level 12/13 when you start getting raid gear back.
    But I haven't looked into all the new upgraded lowbie twink gear yet tbh. All those new slots on things may give me a chance to change my set up, or at the very least give me some swap gear for a more DPS oriented gear set while leveling when survivability isn't the number 1 priority.
    Too bad those rings don't and never will exist. I have 40 or so of these rings and everyone are level 13 variety rings in a no min level flavor. So you can have GFL (with no bonus stats) or +2 con with Imp False Life and +2 dex with Heavy Fort. (BTW I have both of these versions so I know what they can be).

    Good job trying to make people jealous with gear you have that doesn't exist. :P

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Too bad those rings don't and never will exist. I have 40 or so of these rings and everyone are level 13 variety rings in a no min level flavor. So you can have GFL (with no bonus stats) or +2 con with Imp False Life and +2 dex with Heavy Fort. (BTW I have both of these versions so I know what they can be).

    Good job trying to make people jealous with gear you have that doesn't exist. :P
    For the first year or so it existed, Reign of Madness chain rewards offered BTA lootgen rings with no ML. I have several myself:

    Intelligence +6
    Strength +5 of Light Fortification
    Spell Resistance (19) of Exceptional Constitution +1
    Minute Seeing +13

    Not ideal since the strength and spell resistance aren't "clean", but still quite nice to equip at level 1.

  20. #80
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Too bad those rings don't and never will exist. I have 40 or so of these rings and everyone are level 13 variety rings in a no min level flavor. So you can have GFL (with no bonus stats) or +2 con with Imp False Life and +2 dex with Heavy Fort. (BTW I have both of these versions so I know what they can be).

    Good job trying to make people jealous with gear you have that doesn't exist. :P
    Go away. Your trolling is annoying. They in fact do exist, and I spent the 4 weeks farming nothing but that chain to get them.
    I don't care what people think of my gear, because gear doesn't make the player. I would rather have someone tell me I did good in a raid/EE quest than have someone say "Wow you have such and such gear? You're amazing!".

    The original rings, unless I'm mistaken where able to have 2 of any stat that could possibly on a ring slot(lootgen effects). Certain combos like the 2 I bothered to keep were either extremely rare, or there were just SO many options in the loot table that any combo could be considered "rare". I know I did the chain upwards of 100 times on casual during those weeks and I don't think I ever saw the same effects together more than once or twice.

    Although iirc stat+5 items were more common, and the lesser (imp false life, med fort, etc.) effects were more common as well.
    I also seem to remember getting things like Spot+11, Minute Seeing +13, Jump +13 an awful lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    For the first year or so it existed, Reign of Madness chain rewards offered BTA lootgen rings with no ML. I have several myself:

    Intelligence +6
    Strength +5 of Light Fortification
    Spell Resistance (19) of Exceptional Constitution +1
    Minute Seeing +13

    Not ideal since the strength and spell resistance aren't "clean", but still quite nice to equip at level 1.
    ^this.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

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