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  1. #41
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Oh boo freaking hoo.. So start with a 17 CON instead of an 18...

    Such a terrible nerf! We should all quit playing sorcs if we have to make such a hard choice!

    You guys aren't really powergamers... You're just weak. "I quit if I lose 1% of anything!!"
    Actually I worked it out on a few different classes/builds the difference is NOT 18 -> 17 Con (which FYI is a nerf) especially for some builds...here I'll quote it for you since you missed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Single-class Sorc First Life assuming 32pt build, I need to lose either Cha or Con to put points in Int...so lets drop Con a bit since its slightly less important. So assuming Con16/Cha18 (IOW nerfed already) what skills does that allow us

    Human: With 5 skill points I can fit in UMD, Concentration, Balance and Spellcraft so yeah it fits but only if I lower Con or Cha

    WF: With 4 Skill points I can fit UMD, Concen, Balance & Repair...hmmm...nope still need more skill points so boosting Int to SIXTEEN I can now fit in Spellcraft.

    Now just for fun let's have a look at my favorite build my Battle Wiz.

    Dwarf: Str/Con Focus Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 needs Intimidate, Concentration, Balance, UMD, Spellcraft (For Cold SP mostly) and Heal (boosts neg energy) now forgetting the fighter levels and assuming the extra rogue skill points will make up for the cross-classing let's focus on the Wizard levels only to make things simple. So currently I need 14 Int that's a bit of an investment but not too hard to fit in...but now I'm expected to find room for TEN more build points so I can max out at 18 Int on a character that doesn't use Int. Yep definitely a nerf and that's not even considering the fighter levels.

    Actually lets look at an Artificer since they got lots of skill points and are an Int main class see if they fair better than Wizards/Sorcs. Let's assume 18 Dex/16 Int/14 Con (cause 8 Con is insane)

    Human: Concen, Disable Device, Haggle, Open Lock, Search, Spot, UMD, Balance...oh I'm out of skills points...guess I'm dropping Haggle...yep nerfed.

    WF: Oh forget this one they get one less skill point AND need to fit in repair as well. Mega-nerfed

    So in conclusion this spellcraft addition (and the changes to heal & Repair) All caster including Int-based classes like Wizard or even the Arty are getting a nerf because of this whether it be dropping another important skill or taking a hit to one of your main stats.
    Oh and for fun let's add Cleric which already Needs Str/Con and Wis to be high and skill points are 2+Int.

    Todays Clerics: Str 16/Con16/Wis16/Int 8 Skills:Concentration,Balance & Intimidate or UMD
    Post Spellcraft Clerics: Str 14/Con 14/Wis16/Int Skills: Concen, Balance, Spellcraft, Heal & Intimidate or UMD

    Yep so to get the same Spellpower as live Clerics need to drop both Str and Con to boost Int and that's ONLY if their Human.

    Oh and a few solutions since just complaining is counter productive

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    At this point I see two option...first if the devs insist on making it skill related the effects of spellcraft and the new changes to heal & repair should be rolled into Concentration (since very spellcaster wants Con and take Concentration) or second (IMO the much better option) make a new auto-granted feat that grants USP based on your caster stat. It would make sense both mechanically and lore-wise. Actually speaking of lore you could have some fun with it make the feat have a different name for each class...same effect just a fun name.

    Wizard: Studious (Int to Spellpower)
    Arty: Tinker (Int to Spellpower)
    Sorc: Dragon-Blooded (Cha to Spellpower)
    Cleric: Pious (Wis to Spellpower)
    Paladin/FvS: Weapon of the Gods (Cha to Spellpower)
    Druid/Ranger: One with Nature (Wis to Spellpower)
    Bard: Star Power (Cha to Spellpower)

    I'm sure others could come up with better names but that should get the point across. This could actually just be paired with Magical Training as a single Auto-granted feat (which is also a purchasable feat so we don't take that cool option away)

    After that the devs need to take a hard look at all the fantastic suggestions that have been made on have to improve heal and repair (see NOT mandatory)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    And so what? my characters are the most important ones to me, everyone thinks the same.
    QFT
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-25-2013 at 02:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #42
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    oops double post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  3. #43
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Actually I worked it out on a few different classes/builds the difference is NOT 18 -> 17 Con (which FYI is a nerf) especially for some builds...here I'll quote it for you since you missed it



    Oh and for fun let's add Cleric which already Needs Str/Con and Wis to be high and skill points are 2+Int.

    Todays Clerics: Str 16/Con16/Wis16/Int 8 Skills:Concentration,Balance & Intimidate or UMD
    Post Spellcraft Clerics: Str 14/Con 14/Wis16/Int Skills: Concen, Balance, Spellcraft, Heal & Intimidate or UMD

    Yep so to get the same Spellpower as live Clerics need to drop both Str and Con to boost Int and that's ONLY if their Human.

    Oh and a few solutions since just complaining is counter productive





    QFT
    Logic and math will be ignored by those who think Turbine can do no wrong. They're so addicted that it's become an abusive relationship where Turbine beats them and they smile and ask for more.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Thats great so lets see Single-class Sorc First Life assuming 32pt build nope I need to lose either Cha or Con to put points in Int...so lets drop Con a bit since its slightly less important. So assuming Con16/Cha18 (IOW nerfed already) what skills does that allow us

    Human: With 5 skill points I can fit in UMD, Concentration, Balance and Spellcraft so yeah it fits but only if I lower Con or Cha
    ...
    Please show me, how can I put points in UMD, Concentration and balance with a first life 32 pts human sorc, with 18 con and 18 cha. Because only Spellcraft nerfed your CON score to 16? Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    ...
    Human: Concen, Disable Device, Haggle, Open Lock, Search, Spot, UMD, Balance...oh I'm out of skills points...guess I'm dropping Haggle...yep nerfed.
    ...
    You are right, lack of haggle is absolutely game breaking.

    Please keep the good work of pulling arguments out of... ermm, thin air.

  5. #45
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naera View Post
    You are right, lack of haggle is absolutely game breaking.
    Congrats on being another person who misunderstands what people are upset about.

    Also I like how you conveniently left out the part that the quote is about Arties who will barely notice the change due to almost universally maxing Int and a massive starting skill point pool even without Int.

    The issue is two fold and yet its a single root problem...loss of choice

    1. Spellcraft Heal and/or Repair are MANDATORY to the builds that use those elements. It's removing choice thats the issue. Choice is what makes the game stand out from the others and anything that removes choice is a nerf to the GAME.

    2. Some classes have NO room for the extra stat points to fit in Int...especially the ones that already have to crank their int to 14-16 to get what they need and no matter how much (or little) you value a skill you had the point is your losing it because the devs decided to put a mandatory skill in.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-25-2013 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  6. #46
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    If you all can't find a way to make your characters work with a +20 heart of wood, then take a break. Wait until a few youtube videos are posted and people come up with catchy names for the new power builds, and make your carbon copy.

  7. #47
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    If you all can't find a way to make your characters work with a +20 heart of wood, then take a break. Wait until a few youtube videos are posted and people come up with catchy names for the new power builds, and make your carbon copy.
    Yes you are correct the new changes to spellcraft will make cookie cutter much more prevalent due to the limitation on build variety. Thanks for the support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #48
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Logic and math will be ignored by those who think Turbine can do no wrong. They're so addicted that it's become an abusive relationship where Turbine beats them and they smile and ask for more.
    Heh, who is more addicted? The guy who posts he likes the game and sticks around? or the guy who posts he HATES the game, yet still sticks around?

    So your characters have to make some real choices... That's good game design. Play with a 16 CON... I think you'll live. There's even +10 and +11 CON items coming out. And when epic TR comes out, you'll get a 38 point build, and you can get back up to a 17 CON... Like it really matters.

    You'll probably still be angry that you couldn't get one number on your character sheet to the MAX POSSIBLE (because if you're not at MAX POSSIBLE, you're obviously a gimp, right?)
    Last edited by Thrudh; 07-25-2013 at 10:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  9. #49
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Some are getting buffs some might be getting nerfs.........but isn't that all part of the cycle? to keep people tr'ing, LR and buying those hearts of woods and playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Heh, who is more addicted? The guy who posts he likes the game and sticks around? or the guy who posts he HATES the game, yet still sticks around?

    So your characters have to make some real choices... That's good game design. Play with a 16 CON... I think you'll live. There's even +10 and +11 CON items coming out. And when epic TR comes out, you'll get a 38 point build, and you can get back up to a 17 CON... Like it really matters.

    You'll probably still be angry that you couldn't get one number on your character sheet to the MAX POSSIBLE (because if you're not at MAX POSSIBLE, you're obviously a gimp, right?)
    both of them are addicted and one is deluded? Or they are both deluded?

    I think hes a bit more annoyed that the choice was pushed onto him as he sees it anyway. It is kind of annoying how they did some of the skill changes which really favors some classes a huge amount over others. And then there is those who don't really want to be bothered with the whole Epic TR thing.

    Then again its all about change..........for better or worse? who knows but maybe *any* change might be needed to shake things up every 6 months to a year to get people to TR, LR change their toons around to fit the new *optimal* or yay this class is no longer super gimp, its barely playable now, so people have something new to try out.

    Anyway I don't think its wrong for someone to be disgruntled or annoyed at changes they might not like. Sometimes good things can come out of people objecting or expressing their veiws even if *gasp* it isn't all positive and lovey dovey.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-25-2013 at 11:02 PM.

  10. #50
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    The issue is two fold and yet its a single root problem...loss of choice

    1. Spellcraft Heal and/or Repair are MANDATORY to the builds that use those elements. It's removing choice thats the issue. Choice is what makes the game stand out from the others and anything that removes choice is a nerf to the GAME.

    2. Some classes have NO room for the extra stat points to fit in Int...especially the ones that already have to crank their int to 14-16 to get what they need and no matter how much (or little) you value a skill you had the point is your losing it because the devs decided to put a mandatory skill in.
    16 CON instead of 18 CON is a choice.

    Plus, they've freed up quite a few feat slots with their changes. So even if skills have gotten tighter, feats are more open now. So more choices there. No longer is Toughness a "mandatory" feat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  11. #51
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    16 CON instead of 18 CON is a choice.
    Changing you Con from 18 -> 16 is a choice if you make that decision yourself NOT if your being forced to make that change.

    IOW if someone stabs me I didn't CHOOSE to get a cool looking scar...sure some people might like the scar but others might prefer not to have a scar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    No longer is Toughness a "mandatory" feat.
    Which was an excellent change...mandatory is bad because it limits choice Every build had toughness now its still nice but not 100% necessary so why add a 100% required skill...kind of 1 step forward than 1 step back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  12. #52
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Changing you Con from 18 -> 16 is a choice if you make that decision yourself NOT if your being forced to make that change.

    IOW if someone stabs me I didn't CHOOSE to get a cool looking scar...sure some people might like the scar but others might prefer not to have a scar.



    Which was an excellent change...mandatory is bad because it limits choice Every build had toughness now its still nice but not 100% necessary so why add a 100% required skill...kind of 1 step forward than 1 step back.
    yes I like how you said it, it shouldn't be that you lose anything by keeping Con at 18 instead of moving it to 16. Moving it to 16 to gain something is a better design. Not oh noes I have to drop my con by 2 to try and get more int because im going to lose spell power of some sort. It is like taking one step forward then 2-3 steps back in that regard. Some classes are really stuffed in terms of skill points, 2 per level, and isn't at lot more expensive to change your skill points than to swap one feat?

  13. #53
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    The Mayan calender predicts the world will end in..... oh... wait... NM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  14. #54
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post

    1. Spellcraft Heal and/or Repair are MANDATORY to the builds that use those elements. It's removing choice thats the issue. Choice is what makes the game stand out from the others and anything that removes choice is a nerf to the GAME.
    I prefer the days when all non wizard casters universally dumped int. Remember all the variety? Ahh choice...

    This caster sorc might have 18 chr, 18 con, 8 int, but this other caster sorc might have 18 chr, 18 con, 8 int. Now they will have 18 chr, 16 or 17 con, 11-14 int. What is this, 1984?? Leave us alone, you fascists!

  15. #55
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I prefer the days when all non wizard casters universally dumped int. Remember all the variety? Ahh choice...

    This caster sorc might have 18 chr, 18 con, 8 int, but this other caster sorc might have 18 chr, 18 con, 8 int. Now they will have 18 chr, 16 or 17 con, 11-14 int. What is this, 1984?? Leave us alone, you fascists!
    Yes Yes!!! awesome idea. We need to also come up with a system that will make it terrible for int based casters to dump cha and wisdom. 14 in everything will become the new max uber. The variety will be breath taking.

    But why stop there? We should make it harder for characters who also only care about 2 physical stats ie Str and Con, lets make it so they get punished by dumping DEX and also maybe some of the mental attributes? You know most of the strongest and toughest people I know actually have some dexterity and agility? a dex of 8......... isnt that below average so like someone I knew in school jonathan he didnt do anything physical and could hardly catch a ball. Most of the strongest people had the dexterity to at least do that, and I know some props who can bench and squat a lot yet still have good ball skills, hand eye. They would be almost useless if they couldn't catch a ball or line up a tackle. Isn't that the same with martial fighters? Striking, using weapons well requires some dexterity, so being someone who is so clumsy you only have a dex of 8 wouldnt that be a pretty big handicap for someone trying to be in a martial profession?

    haha i could imagine such a system lets say hey if your dex mod is below a certain number you have increasing miss chances.............. because your a clumsy oaf.........man I would hate the system.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-26-2013 at 03:18 AM.

  16. #56
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Logic and math will be ignored by those who think Turbine can do no wrong. They're so addicted that it's become an abusive relationship where Turbine beats them and they smile and ask for more.
    What is in red is the problem. Not sure how to explain it so that it is politically correct but I have found people (current generations*) come to a singular conclusion and will refuse to consider anything else afterwards, regardless of the information presented (Math, science, history, ect...) or "walk a mile in another persons shoes."

    And yes, I consider myself part of the current generation sometimes.

    P.S. I just had a long rant that had nothing to do with my post...But I thankfully deleted to spare everyone, including me, the embarrassment.

  17. #57
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    The issue is two fold and yet its a single root problem...loss of choice

    It's removing choice thats the issue. Choice is what makes the game stand out from the others and anything that removes choice is a nerf to the GAME.
    Choice is not the ability to have everything relevant served to you on a plate. Choice implies that you have to make a trade off between certain competing skills/spells/attributes etc. I think it's ridiculous that on a cleric, for instance, you can go full melee and still be as good in healing as a caster based cleric. There's no tradeoff where there should be...

  18. #58
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Yes Yes!!! awesome idea. We need to also come up with a system that will make it terrible for int based casters to dump cha and wisdom. 14 in everything will become the new max uber. The variety will be breath taking.

    But why stop there?....
    Well this is a fun slippery slope rant. I understand the thought of opting to drop con 1-2 pts on a 32 pt caster is incredibly upsetting, but is it really worth a ridiculous outburst like this?

    I wasn't arguing that there will be more variety if characters feel the need to not dump int. I was arguing that there wont be less variety or choice, because people mostly built certain characters the same way anyway. It was a response to a specific point.

    But please feel free to fall off the deep end again. The apocalypse is clearly coming and only the grizzled men with the hand-painted signs and bullhorns on the corner can save us from it.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 07-26-2013 at 05:50 AM.

  19. #59
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    Wasn't this a thread about how the devs are willfully and maliciously nerfing every class as part of a grand Machiavellian plan?

    All this talk of choice is derailing what was a perfectly good tinfoil hat post by the OP.

    With the new enhancements you have more choices to make than before. You really think balance is a required skill? You think you have to get those Spellcraft, Heal or Repair to 23 by 20 and anything less is gimped? You think that a first life character should have the same choices open to them as a 3rd lifer with a set of +4 tomes?

    I get the argument about Spellcraft, I really do. I like it affecting USP as a reflection of scholarly study.

    I still think that a Sorcerer with their innate bloodline power should be head and shoulders above a wizard in their savant line, but not through an INT based skill, maybe they should just get an auto-granted feat "Arcane bloodline" or something that grants +1 to Fire, Cold, Electric and Acid Spell Power per character level regardless of whether they choose to multi-class or not, after all it's in their blood whether they choose to focus on it or not. Their prestige lines with the -5 spell power to their opposing element will soon whittle that down in some areas. And as I've said before, they should get 0.5 USP and +1 elemental Spell Power for each point they spend in the tree in the same way Radiant Servant get that with Positive Spell Power.

    That might end up giving them a higher spell power than they do on live, but with the changed critical profile, I don't think people will object too much. It's certainly not OP if you do the math on it.

    Lamannia will be back up later today, let's see whether the latest build has been updated with any of the small mountain of feedback they've had so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Wasn't this a thread about how the devs are willfully and maliciously nerfing every class as part of a grand Machiavellian plan?

    All this talk of choice is derailing what was a perfectly good tinfoil hat post by the OP.

    With the new enhancements you have more choices to make than before. You really think balance is a required skill? You think you have to get those Spellcraft, Heal or Repair to 23 by 20 and anything less is gimped? You think that a first life character should have the same choices open to them as a 3rd lifer with a set of +4 tomes?
    Agreed, WF Sorcs will not require points put into repair to be efficient.
    People will need to make choices, as a 2nd or 3rd life character those choices should be easier to make vs. a first life character, making arguments based on 32 Point builds just doesn't quite cut it for me.
    People don't seem to realize Paladins and Monks have been making these choices all along. Food for thought.

    Maybe for Sorcs - Spellcraft = USP + stacking 0.5 to main element per spellcraft point.

    As to the OP every class is definitely not getting nerfed.
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