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  1. #21
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    Default Might Wanna check your info Mate!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Here are a few reasons why I believe the developers intend to nerf everyone's classes in the upcoming enhancement pass:

    - To reduce lag. Seriously, I know this sounds like a dumb one, but unfortunately, that is the case. More damage = more server load. In fact, I recall that when Two-Weapon fighting was nerfed slightly, it was to reduce server lag. This is a poor excuse to nerf us, really. It's like saying, "Yeah you can take a shower but you have to turn it off and on again every minute or else the showerhead clogs up." It's a poor workaround for a much bigger issue.

    Lol

    - To reduce power creep. Lets face it, there's a lot of it at low levels. It makes low and most mid-level content trivial, especially in groups.

    Scaling makes for grouping more trivial than the enhancement pass... BTW its not easier in groups

    - To add more challenge in normal and hard settings. People want a challenge at these settings, and Turbine is giving it to them - in the form of a nerf.

    Time to go VIP

    - To undo a mistake. This happens all too often. They give us power we believe to be good, and then they take it back because they feel it is 'overpowered'.

    Its been like this since Alpha and Beta

    Yes, I realize that the enhancement pass isn't final, but it certainly has a strong indication of nerfing our characters. And I know there are more reasons than these, these are all that I can think off.

    A lot of toons are getting stronger, you might wanna check Lammania Live and not DDO Vault

    Your thoughts or reasons?
    This OP is full of Win!!!

    Errrrr Trollwin!!!!

    Laters

  2. #22
    Hero karpedieme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpemontis View Post
    This OP is full of Win!!!

    Errrrr Trollwin!!!!

    Laters
    This above post to the Op is Hilarious.

    I wish I could +1 myself as it was supposed to be posted by this account... Stupid alpabetical log-in....

    Laters and keep on trolling!!!!
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  3. #23
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    You need to understand the difference between USP and class-specific SP. Come back when you do. I don't do cookie cutters, never have, never will. Next?.
    Youre going to love the new cookie cutters, which will be the only way to gain specific spell power. Take amping up healing on bards and paladins for instance. Self healing is supposed to be a feature of the entire class (and it is now) but is becoming a feature of one tree. How is this not a nerf? Don't like cookie cutters, yet defending a system where they steer you into making them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If I limit my answer only to my main, you can see the details of what each of the 40 lifes has for self-healing, UMD being a staple option. Next?
    Don't do cookie cutters? Shenanigans. UMD will now be the cookie cutter self healing option for any class that doesn't have the option to take devotion line it used to be able to take for the same PRE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    The new enhancements don't nerf every class, and nobody in their right mind would put the hours into this with the aim being to nerf every class.
    What they do is steer players in the direction of absolutely having to go up specific trees in order to gain CLASS FEATURES that you should have for being that class, and not having to take specific PRE or go up specific tree to get. How is this not cookie cutter? How is this not a nerf from what we have now - the ability to take devotion lines on hybrids like bards and paladins which is not restricted to specific PRE.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #24
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Reduce power creep: The era for doing this is long gone. The window of opportunity was right before the shroud came out back in 2007. After that happened we took the power creep plunge and never looked back. To even "challenge" geared out and full destiny toons they have to give mobs elevendy twelve bajillion HP and saves so high that if youre not a complete min max you wont land spells.

    Fix the mistake of giving us too much power. Yeah we have seen this a few times in different eras of this game. They take power away and then make us farm anew if we want to get back to the same level of power we once had.
    Exactly

    How many people are going to be pi$$ed when they see that the dragon helm they bought for an otto box is worthless here in a few weeks? It actually may hold a little value, but with +10 and +6 exceptional stats coming, yeah, not worth it.

    While I am not happy about losing spell power on my Sorc, I know that I will have the new FOTM, and people will be back here in a couple months demanding that they be nerfed or they will walk. People won’t even post anymore about sorcs. In time they will rise again and the same crybabies will come back demanding the nerf bat.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Enhancements are small part of any player's power... With a spell-craft item, and putting two build points in INT (you can STILL get a 18 CHA and a 18 CON), sorc spell-power numbers are LARGER than on live.

    No nerf. And even if Shiradi sorcs did get a 10% nerf (which they aren't), when you're top of the heap and doing 80% more DPS than everyone else, complaining about a 10% nerf is just childish.

    We get an LR+20. You may have to change some characters... Boo-Hoo. Good players will offer constructive criticism and adapt (just like every other major change). Bad players will just whine. Most of the people complaining are top-end powergamers. The same people who post constantly that they bored out of their minds because the game is too easy. The same people who claim they will quit playing sorcs if their spell-power goes from 270 to 268.

    You all should have seen the whining when we went from the original enhancement system to the existing one...
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Enhancements are small part of any player's power... With a spell-craft item, and putting two build points in INT (you can STILL get a 18 CHA and a 18 CON), sorc spell-power numbers are LARGER than on live.
    you call others power gamer elitists, yet your solution is only for 34/36 point builds, yeah that's legit.

  7. #27
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    ~Your thoughts or reasons?
    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    To reduce lag.
    ~BS. they nerfed 2 weapon Tempest rangers because they said they were causing lag... still have lag...Poor programming and subpar servers cause lag. other MMO's are doing just fine..

    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    To reduce power creep.
    ~ Poor planning and foresight causes power creep.
    ~QA/Testing needs to play the game like players do and look at many variables, not just how a specific thing works in their staged perfect world scenario's.

    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    To add more challenge in normal and hard settings.
    ~ Difficulty scaling needs work, the scaling does not make much sense. Epic hard should not be easier than heroic elite.

    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    To undo a mistake.
    ~mistakes happen, DDO has a traditional history of tweaking with a sludgehammer instead of fine tuning.

    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Yes, I realize that the enhancement pass isn't final, but it certainly has a strong indication of nerfing our characters. And I know there are more reasons than these, these are all that I can think off.
    ~ enhancement pass looks like the work of a unexpected last minute exam cram, not a years work of planning and preparation. There are so many poorly implemented and sloppy components here, point distributions make no sense and are wildly unbalanced between classes, pathing tree's are inconsistant. Prestiges are incomplete and many are completely off track. The ones I played with in Alpha are very disappointing, it makes the entire Dev team look incompetent.

    Dumbing down the system to make it easier for new players is the wrong approach. DDO is a indepth complicated versitle game.
    Trying to make it like a Diablo or WOW clone is detrimental to DDO's historical success..
    I dont want a WOW wannabe... if I did we would be playing WOW.

    I hope the next round of beta is vastly improved or i suspect our live release will be wrought with problems for the next year or so if we manage to still be playing that long.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 07-25-2013 at 10:44 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What they do is steer players in the direction of absolutely having to go up specific trees in order to gain CLASS FEATURES that you should have for being that class, and not having to take specific PRE or go up specific tree to get. How is this not cookie cutter? How is this not a nerf from what we have now - the ability to take devotion lines on hybrids like bards and paladins which is not restricted to specific PRE.
    Seems to me that this is more about forcing players to make choices rather than having a lot of things be automatic. It could be seen as a nerf, obviously, but my guess is that it will also eventually lead to some more interesting builds.

    I've also never really gotten all the hullaballoo over losing a few SP points. A few points here and there just doesn't make a huge difference now that everything is additive rather than multiplicative.

  9. #29
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Most of the people complaining are top-end powergamers. The same people who post constantly that they bored out of their minds because the game is too easy. The same people who claim they will quit playing sorcs if their spell-power goes from 270 to 268.
    That about sums it up.

    It's pretty clear that the devs are trying to reign in FoTM builds that build simply to exploit EEs and to make the game more attractive (easier) to new players. Honestly, most of the problem would go away if they simply redid ed's so they were class based and not intended to create balance by giving everyone anything. Never understood why my fighter can create a Tsunami out of thin air and my scrawny, weak wizard can toss large boulders so hard they knock down giants.

    But that's another subject...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    In general this is incorrect. Lowering the amount of damage does not reduce lag. What does count is the number of dice rolls. The attack speed of TWF was lowered to decrease the number of dice rolls. This lowers the strain on the server somewhat, although I can't imagine it reduces lag a lot.
    It was collision detection. Instead of calculating whether or not you were close enough to a mob to make an attack roll at the moment of an attack for each individual main and offhand attack, they changed it so that the detection was made only for the main hand, and there would be a % chance that the offhand attack would proc, thus reducing the number of calcs. That's when TWF changed to a % proc.
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  11. #31
    Community Member vampiregoat69's Avatar
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    If a class works NERF it, if someone complains in PVP that a certain class is OP they NERF IT, if your happy with the game NERF IT. You see there are some real reasons why I see ALOT of games getting nerfs done to them main one is PVP.
    Character A goes into PVP against class B, Class B attacks and kills A cause A sucks at PVP but fails to admit it. A is so mad he goes to forums to complain about class B being way over powered. A few other Class A's that got their butt handed to them by class B agree. Dev's read this and nerf the living daylights out of class B.

  12. #32
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Enhancements are small part of any player's power... With a spell-craft item, and putting two build points in INT (you can STILL get a 18 CHA and a 18 CON), sorc spell-power numbers are LARGER than on live.
    Thats great so lets see Single-class Sorc First Life assuming 32pt build nope I need to lose either Cha or Con to put points in Int...so lets drop Con a bit since its slightly less important. So assuming Con16/Cha18 (IOW nerfed already) what skills does that allow us

    Human: With 5 skill points I can fit in UMD, Concentration, Balance and Spellcraft so yeah it fits but only if I lower Con or Cha

    WF: With 4 Skill points I can fit UMD, Concen, Balance & Repair...hmmm...nope still need more skill points so boosting Int to SIXTEEN I can now fit in Spellcraft.

    Now just for fun let's have a look at my favorite build my Battle Wiz.

    Dwarf: Str/Con Focus Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 needs Intimidate, Concentration, Balance, UMD, Spellcraft and Heal (boosts neg energy) now forgetting the fighter levels and assuming the extra rogue skill points will make up for the cross-classing let's focus on the Wizard levels only to make things simple. So currently I need 14 Int that's a bit of an investment but not too hard to fit in...but now I'm expected to find room for TEN more build points so I can max out at 18 Int on a character that doesn't use Int. Yep definitely a nerf and thats not even considering the fighter levels.

    Actually lets look at an Artificer since they got lots of skill points and are an Int main class see if they fair better than Wizards/Sorcs. Let's assume 18 Dex/16 Int/14 Con (cause 8 Con is insane)

    Human: Concen, Disable Device, Haggle, Open Lock, Search, Spot, UMD, Balance...oh I'm out of skills points...guess I'm dropping Haggle...yep nerfed.

    WF: Oh forget this one they get one less skill point AND need to fit in repair as well. Mega-nerfed

    So in conclusion this spellcraft addition (and the changes to heal & Repair) All caster including Int-based classes like Wizard or even the Arty are getting a nerf because of this whether it be dropping another important skill or taking a hit to one of your main stats.

    I see two solutions here the effects of spellcraft and the new changes to heal & repair should be rolled into Concentration (since very spellcaster wants Con and take Concentration) or make a new auto-granted feat that grants USP based on your caster stat. It would make sense both mechanically and lore-wise. Actually speaking of lore you could have some fun with it make the feat have a different name for each class...same effect just a fun name.

    Wizard: Studious (Int to Spellpower)
    Arty: Tinker (Int to Spelllpower)
    Sorc: Dragon-Blooded (Cha to Spellpower)
    Cleric: Pious (Wis to Spellpower)
    Paladin/FvS: Weapon of the Gods (Cha to Spellpower)
    Druid/Ranger: One with Nature (Wis to Spellpower)
    Bard: Star Power (Cha to Spellpower)

    I'm sure others could come up with better names but that should get the point across. This could actually just be paired with Magical Training as a single Auto-granted feat (which is also a purchasable feat so we don't take that cool option away)

    After that the devs need to take a hard look at all the fantastic sugesstions that have been made on have to improve heal and repair (see NOT mandatory)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    We get an LR+20. You may have to change some characters... Boo-Hoo.
    I can't speak for anyone else but I don't have any issue with adjusting my character to the new changes especially with the free LR+20 Tokens everyone is receiving but alot of the changes encourage or demand/force a limited build variety and in a game like DDO that's a really bad thing because multi-classing and versatility is a huge draw for many people including myself who probably spends more time theory-crafting builds than I do actually playing

    Note: LRs are actually really hard to do as a multi-class character if they want to change one of their classes because until the end of the LR your still considered to have those classes.

    For example my Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2...for arguments sake say Rogue enhancements get changed in such a way that I'd rather get Evasion from Monk 2. Even with a LR+20 that's impossible as the second I tried to take a Monk Level the Game would say its not possible as It would consider it taking a 4th Class.

    Personally I'd rather See an NPC beside Kruz that offers an LR+20 token OR a TR Token (a normal one not a Give me ALL your epic destiny XP TR token)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Good players will offer constructive criticism and adapt (just like every other major change). Bad players will just whine.
    Being Good/Bad has nothing to do with it whether your the elite creme-de-la-creme or a relatively casual player who took 2 years to reach lvl 20 removing build versatility by adding more "100% required skills" and pigeon-holing "Base Class Features" into a single Prestige Tree will hurt everyone and the game in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Most of the people complaining are top-end powergamers. The same people who post constantly that they bored out of their minds because the game is too easy. The same people who claim they will quit playing sorcs if their spell-power goes from 270 to 268.
    First off I'm no where near being a "Power Gamer" I mostly play in a static group where I play weird builds with my static groups that would never be accepted in normal pugs. I only have one character who's made it into Epic Levels and one character who's TR'd and I've been playing since F2P launched it's mostly likely my Alt-I-tis's fault (most are between 10 & 16ish) but luckily the pigeon-holing will limit build variety so it will help treat that I guess.

    Anyways transferring my Palemaster Wizard from Live to Lama saw my Neg Energy Plummet even with almost maxing out the PM tree. So no not 2 points of Spellpower more like 30 - 50 and I'm expected to put points into a CROSS-CLASS skill (heal) to get it back up. Oh of course I did get a "Buff" to elements I never use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    you call others power gamer elitists, yet your solution is only for 34/36 point builds, yeah that's legit.
    This. Everything except Elite (both Heroic and Epic) should NOT be balanced around 2nd, 3rd, etc. lifers only 1% (Dev words not mine) of the players in this game can hit Lvl 20 in 1-2 weeks and consistently run Elite on their Multi-life decked out characters. Who's the "Top-End Power Gamer" now
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 07-25-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Reduce power creep: The era for doing this is long gone. The window of opportunity was right before the shroud came out back in 2007. After that happened we took the power creep plunge and never looked back. To even "challenge" geared out and full destiny toons they have to give mobs elevendy twelve bajillion HP and saves so high that if youre not a complete min max you wont land spells.

    Fix the mistake of giving us too much power. Yeah we have seen this a few times in different eras of this game. They take power away and then make us farm anew if we want to get back to the same level of power we once had.
    MMOs are dynamic. Most of the complaints are because the game is changing from what these people want, into something they don't want.

    However, a lot of people (myself included) are looking forward to the changes. It's not like a 5% swing in damage is going to make hell-o-beans difference in any situation except the extreme. (I can't solo EE TOR now, it's too hard!!!!) That being said, just because they ratchet it down, doesn't mean they can't ratchet it up.

    I get real tired of the sorc vs wizard "spell damage" compare. Mostly because sorcs have thousands more SP, they cast 2x faster, and have nearly identical spell power. So... No matter if there is a 10 point favor to wizards or not... Sorcs are still going to own the spell damage.

    Wizards lost spell crit too. Wizards now have to spend on skill points too. Wizards... blah blah blah. They keep acting like everything they are complaining about only effects them. No it is a 'caster' issue in general. And if you stand on one button, they still do MORE damage than wizards just because cool downs and mana goes further.

    Not even counting their "new" mechanics that add even more damage. (Stacking spell power the more times the cast on a mob etc.)

    I think some of their fears should be addressed for all casters. But I just don't buy into the DOOOOOOOOOOOOM. But hey, some people like to play the victim.

  14. #34
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    My concern is the insanely over-powered combinations that are going to have to be nerfed later (looking at you centered two-hander with Defensive-Strikes).

  15. #35
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    you call others power gamer elitists, yet your solution is only for 34/36 point builds, yeah that's legit.
    Oh boo freaking hoo.. So start with a 17 CON instead of an 18...

    Such a terrible nerf! We should all quit playing sorcs if we have to make such a hard choice!

    You guys aren't really powergamers... You're just weak. "I quit if I lose 1% of anything!!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Youre going to love the new cookie cutters
    Unlikely, I prefer to do my own thing. I'm difficult that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Don't like cookie cutters, yet defending a system where they steer you into making them.
    You're mistaking someone who isn't crying doom for someone that is defending the entire system. A casual browse of my posting history you'll see repeated posts saying that racial enhancements and ideally class enhancements should be based on Total AP spend instead of AP spent in the tree. The more time I spend on Lamannia studying the enhancements and experimenting with builds the more convinced I become of this. I do try and post a positive suggestion wherever possible rather than just crying for some outlandish change that will never see the light of day, or asking Turbine to abandon all of their plans on my say-so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Don't do cookie cutters? Shenanigans. UMD will now be the cookie cutter self healing option for any class that doesn't have the option to take devotion line it used to be able to take for the same PRE.
    Wait a sec, in your opinion anyone that uses UMD to scroll heal is a cookie cutter? That makes as much sense as all those cookie cutter rogues and artificers who do those nasty traps, and those cookie cutter casters with their blue bars. Let me repeat it to make sure it's clear. I don't look up other people's builds on the forums. I prefer to succeed or fail based on my own opinions on what works and what suits my playstyle. Not a single FOTM in my character barracks or on any of their past lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What they do is steer players <much snipping>
    This is so simple to answer it's ridiculous. The issue isn't that things are in multiple trees, it's that they are restricted by the AP spent in that tree. It has been my opinion since alpha and which is only reinforced now I've spent a shedload of time on Lamannia is that the system will be greatly improved by basing it on Total AP spend, or on Class AP by counting spend in any tree specific to a class, instead of specific Tree AP spend.

    We don't need them to abandon everything, redesign the whole system or re-engineer every enhancement tree - they just need to make one change: keep the AP requirements as they are, but base it on Total AP spent.

    But even then, I still refute that the system is fundamentally a nerf. You can spend points in multiple prestige trees and pick up flavours from multiple prestiges which you weren't able to do before. Base the gating on Total AP spend and then people have a free reign to pick and choose from any tree they have access to - it's a simple solution and addresses so many issues and shuts the mouth of people who have nothing but negative to say. Wouldn't you agree?

    Or does that just lead to a frenzy of outraged posters that now we have too much freedom and too much choice and how awful it is that there is an enhancement that literally nobody would take because there are other things that are so much better!!!

    Clearer on my position now?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiregoat69 View Post
    If a class works NERF it, if someone complains in PVP that a certain class is OP they NERF IT, if your happy with the game NERF IT. You see there are some real reasons why I see ALOT of games getting nerfs done to them main one is PVP.
    Character A goes into PVP against class B, Class B attacks and kills A cause A sucks at PVP but fails to admit it. A is so mad he goes to forums to complain about class B being way over powered. A few other Class A's that got their butt handed to them by class B agree. Dev's read this and nerf the living daylights out of class B.
    You really think classes are adjusted based on PVP balance? You know this isn't a PVP game, right?

  18. #38
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Yes, I realize that the enhancement pass isn't final, but it certainly has a strong indication of nerfing our characters. And I know there are more reasons than these, these are all that I can think off.
    I play a pale master.

    Pale masters are getting a huge boost in power (more int & null dmg) and survivability (more nullification dmg & int for lich form or 35% incorporeal for wraith) Bone armor PRR for all forms.....

    What OP means to say is: "Yes, I realize that the enhancement pass isn't final, but it certainly has a strong indication of nerfing MY characters. "
    Last edited by DynaTheCat; 07-25-2013 at 01:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Oh boo freaking hoo.. So start with a 17 CON instead of an 18...

    Such a terrible nerf! We should all quit playing sorcs if we have to make such a hard choice!

    You guys aren't really powergamers... You're just weak. "I quit if I lose 1% of anything!!"
    Non-Shiradi sorcs are absolute weaksauce in EEs at this time.

    This class didn't need a nerf.

    Period.

  20. #40
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post

    What OP means to say is: "The new enhancement pass is going to nerf my character."
    And so what? my characters are the most important ones to me, everyone thinks the same.

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