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  1. #1
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Question 32 Point Warforged Arcane Melee Build - Is it still viable?

    First of all, I've been out of the game for a while, so feedback from you 'build masters' would be appreciated.

    Second, I have access to 32 point builds but that is about it; no tomes, uber gear, past lives, etc. So is it worthwhile? Should it be done? What should I change?

    Warforged - Level 17 Wizard / 2 Rogue / 1 Fighter (Arcane Melee Build)
    Starting Stats: 16 (STR) / 8 (DEX) / 16 (CON) / 18 (INT) / 6 (WIS) / 6 (CHA)
    Hit Points: 29 Spell Points: 0 BAB: 0
    Fort Save: +3 Reflex Save: +1 Will Save: -2

    Level 1 (Rogue)
    SKILLS: Balance +4 / Concentration +4 / Disable Device +4 / Haggle +4 / Hide +4 / Jump +4 / Move Silently +4 / Open Lock +4 / Repair +4 / Search +4 / Spot +4 / Tumble +4
    FEATS: Two-Handed Fighting
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Damage Reduction I & Warforged Healer’s Friend I

    Level 2 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +2 / Disable Device +2 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Mental Toughness (bonus feat)
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I / Warforged Inscribed Armor I / Wizard Elemental Manipulation (Fire/Cold) I / Wizard Energy Of The Scholar I

    Level 3 (Fighter)
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Search +2 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Toughness & Stunning Blow (bonus feat)
    ENHANCEMENTS: Fighter Critical Accuracy I / Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I / Fighter Toughness I / Racial Toughness I

    Level 4 (Rogue)
    ABILITY INCREASE: Strength
    SKILLS: Balance +2 / Disable Device +1 / Hide +2 / Move Silently +2 / Open Lock +2 / Search +2 / Spot +1
    ENHANCEMENTS: None at this level

    Level 5 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +4 / Disable Device +2
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Healer’s Friend II / Wizard Intelligence I

    Level 6 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 / Disable Device +2 / Repair +1 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Toughness
    ENHANCEMENTS: Racial Toughness II / Warforged Damage Reduction II

    Level 7 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 /Disable Device +2 / Repair +1 / Spot +2
    ENHANCEMENTS: Wizard Elemental Manipulation (Fire/Cold) II / Wizard Lineage Of The Elements (Fire/Cold) I / Wizard Subtle Spell Casting I

    Level 8 (Wizard)
    ABILITY INCREASE: Strength
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Repair +2 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Maximize Spell (bonus feat)
    ENHANCEMENTS: Wizard Energy Of The Scholar II / Wizard Spell Penetration I

    Level 9 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 / Disable Device +2 / Repair +1 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Improved Mental Toughness
    ENHANCEMENTS: Wizard Intellegence II

    Level 10 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 / Disable Device +2 / Repair +1 / Spot +2
    ENHANCEMENTS: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I / Wizard Elemental Manipulation III

    Level 11 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 / Disable Device +2 / Repair +1 / Spot +2
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Inscribed Armor II / Wizard Improved Maximizing I

    Level 12 (Wizard)
    ABILITY INCREASE: Strength
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 / Disable Device +2 / Repair +1 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Improved Two-Handed Fighting
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II / Wizard Subtle Spell Casting II

    Level 13 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 / Disable Device +2 / Repair +1 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Enlarge Spell (bonus feat)
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Inscribed Armor III

    Level 14 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Concentration +1 / Repair +1 / Disable Device +2 / Spot +2
    ENHANCEMENTS: Wizard Lineage Of The Elements (Fire/Cold) II / Wizard Energy of the Scholar III

    Level 15 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Spot +4
    FEATS: Toughness
    ENHANCEMENTS: None at this level

    Level 16 (Wizard)
    ABILITY INCREASE: Strength
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Search +4
    ENHANCEMENTS: Wizard Energy Of The Scholar IV

    Level 17 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Search +4
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Damage Reduction III

    Level 18 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Search +2 / Spot +2
    FEATS: Toughness / Extend Spell (bonus feat)
    ENHANCEMENTS: Warforged Healer’s Friend III

    Level 19 (Wizard)
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Search +2 / Spot +2
    ENHANCEMENTS: None at this level

    Level 20 (Wizard)
    ABILITY INCREASE: Intelligence
    SKILLS: Disable Device +2 / Search +2 / Spot +2
    ENHANCEMENTS: Wizard Intellegence III / Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements (Fire/Cold) II

    Final Stats: 20 (STR) / 8 (DEX) / 16 (CON) / 22 (INT) / 6 (WIS) / 6 (CHA)
    Hit Points: 288 Spell Points: 1396 BAB: 10 / 10 / 15 / 20
    Fort Save: +10 Reflex Save: +7 Will Save: +8
    I believe in mind over matter. If I don't mind, it doesn't matter.

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  2. #2
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Thumbs down lmao...

    Well as the day went on, I was like ... Wow, not even a "Your build sucks sideways, ya noob."

    So I did some digging and see why the lack of views and responses to the horrific thread. I guess I'm going back to dwarven builds (I think they may have a higher poison resistance these days). I swear ya leave for a while and stuff gets nerfed all to heck...

    I'll be sure to do more homework before I offer up another build to be critiqued
    I believe in mind over matter. If I don't mind, it doesn't matter.

    Sarlona! Yep, back again.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarkius View Post
    Well as the day went on, I was like ... Wow, not even a "Your build sucks sideways, ya noob."

    So I did some digging and see why the lack of views and responses to the horrific thread. I guess I'm going back to dwarven builds (I think they may have a higher poison resistance these days). I swear ya leave for a while and stuff gets nerfed all to heck...

    I'll be sure to do more homework before I offer up another build to be critiqued
    the Juggernaut is the most common arcane melee build nowadays, but this is still fine.


    advice...

    pick a direction on the build an go with it.

    Never take toughness more than once. the real gain comes from enhancements.

    Keep all your level up points consistent. If you want a melee build focus on strength. If you want a caster build go with Int.

    The way combat works nowadays. theres no reason not to go full int focus and use masters touch(And later Tensors) for Two handed fighting
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  4. #4
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    the Juggernaut is the most common arcane melee build nowadays, but this is still fine.


    advice...

    pick a direction on the build an go with it.

    Never take toughness more than once. the real gain comes from enhancements.

    Keep all your level up points consistent. If you want a melee build focus on strength. If you want a caster build go with Int.

    The way combat works nowadays. theres no reason not to go full int focus and use masters touch(And later Tensors) for Two handed fighting
    Thanks Impaqt (glad to see a familiar face ...err... name btw ). I saw one of the Juggernaut builds, but it looks like it uses the monk class in the build which as a premium player I do not have access to (yet). Its funny how when you subscribe you take 'FotM' classes for granted and when you come back several months or years later they are the basis or at least a requirement for a lot of interesting builds.

    I'll be sure to take your advice on the build though
    I believe in mind over matter. If I don't mind, it doesn't matter.

    Sarlona! Yep, back again.

  5. #5
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    If you're not going to put your level ups into Int, I don't recommend spending 6 build points to start your Int at 18.

    Likewise, I don't think getting 9th level spells is worth so many levels of wizard, since you won't have the necessary investment in Int and Feats in order to stick the spells that have saving throws.

    Picking a direction to focus on is good advice.;
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  6. #6
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    the Juggernaut is the most common arcane melee build nowadays, but this is still fine.


    advice...

    pick a direction on the build an go with it.

    Never take toughness more than once. the real gain comes from enhancements.

    Keep all your level up points consistent. If you want a melee build focus on strength. If you want a caster build go with Int.

    The way combat works nowadays. theres no reason not to go full int focus and use masters touch(And later Tensors) for Two handed fighting
    I'm sort of on the fence about this advice. Here's why, we're looking at an upcoming enhancement pass that is going to make most of this obsolete and it is going to happen before the build ever gets a chance to really get going.

    Never take toughness more than once is good advice -- but the new advice may well be, rarely take toughness at all.

    Keep all your level up points consistent -- that sounds like good advice but it really isn't, builds have to weigh the cost in build points to raise stats to different levels and there are stat thresholds for many things that are crucial to a build's overall success; sometimes the best thing is to split level up points among stats because you actually accomplish more.

    The way combat works nowadays -- I really completely agree, the changes do alter things but players should take into account their play style and whether they will mostly group or mostly solo before making hard and fast decisions about things like Master's Touch or Tenser's; non-proficiency has a bigger impact as the game goes on since it is no longer a finite negative (-4) but now a percentage decrease (-25%), and full BAB is still full BAB.

    But mostly, I would say that starting any new build right now is probably not a good idea. If you have existing characters then play them for now and enjoy the game, maybe build your plat reserves or score some good gear. But, right now isn't the smart time to be starting something new based on the way the game currently plays -- because that is going to change.

  7. #7
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    [...]

    But mostly, I would say that starting any new build right now is probably not a good idea. If you have existing characters then play them for now and enjoy the game, maybe build your plat reserves or score some good gear. But, right now isn't the smart time to be starting something new based on the way the game currently plays -- because that is going to change.
    This is definitely good advice, however, considering my characters were eliminated (except for a few for storage purposes and name holders) for the most part and the ones that are left are severely gimped and low level due to 'great ideas, but poor execution' and previous 'changes' made to game mechanics (yeah, some of them are from the first time enhancements got redone back in '07 I think it was). So, I know they are not ... viable ... playable yes, worth playing, no. When I left I had no real intention of coming back due to the direction the game was heading, but after trying several other games, here I am. And my 'playable' characters were retired and deleted and gear sold or auctioned off. Poor choices on my end, not the first - probably not the last

    I still have a bit of plat here and there, nothing to buy an airship with mind you, but enough to usually get a couple of low level toons some fairly decent gear going.

    I do appreciate the input from those of you that have managed to either stick it out or step up to take the empty places left behind by others
    I believe in mind over matter. If I don't mind, it doesn't matter.

    Sarlona! Yep, back again.

  8. #8
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I think the primary question is: what do you want out of this build? Are you a melee build who relies of spells primarily for buffs & repairs with occasional DPS? If so, I'd do something STR-based and more heavily-MCed to gain extra feats & BAB; see my Wraith Blade for one example. Or are you a DPS caster who does a little melee on the side? If so, I'd make a typical INT-based Archmage with a couple of melee feats for when you want to save SPs (or just have more fun smacking things).

    Here's an example of an INT-based "battle arcane" I was thinking of:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 25 True Neutral Warforged Male
    (2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard \ 5 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 376
    Spell Points: 1783 
    BAB: 10\10\15\20
    Fortitude: 11
    Reflex: 18
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
    Strength             14                    16
    Dexterity             8                     8
    Constitution         18                    21
    Intelligence         18                    29
    Wisdom                6                     8
    Charisma              6                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 2 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
    
    
    Level 3 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: INT
    
    
    Level 5 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 6 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
    Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation
    
    
    Level 7 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: INT
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
    
    
    Level 10 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 11 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 12 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
    Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Conjuration
    
    
    Level 13 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
    
    
    Level 16 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: INT
    
    
    Level 17 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
    
    
    Level 18 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 19 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: INT
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration III
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting I
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting II
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting III
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting IV
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting V
    Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting VI
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics I
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics II
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics III
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics IV
    Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics V
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation II
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation III
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation IV
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation V
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation VI
    Enhancement: Force Manipulation VII
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation II
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation III
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation IV
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation V
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III
    Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
    Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
    Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
    Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
    Enhancement: Wizard Archmage I
    Enhancement: Wizard Archmage II
    Enhancement: Wizard Archmage III
    Enhancement: Wizard Archmage IV
    Enhancement: Wizard Archmage V
    Enhancement: Archmage Secondary Spell Mastery I: Conjuration
    Enhancement: Archmage Spell Mastery I: Evocation
    Enhancement: Archmage Spell Mastery II: Evocation
    Enhancement: Conjuration I - Grease
    Enhancement: Conjuration II - Web
    Enhancement: Evocation I - Magic Missile
    Enhancement: Evocation II - Gust of Wind
    Enhancement: Evocation III - Chain Missiles
    
    
    Level 21 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic Spell Focus: Evocation
    
    
    Level 22 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 23 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 24 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness (or Empower Spell)
    
    
    Level 25 (Wizard)
    Typical INT-based rog-splashed AM, except with a couple of melee feats (Power Atk & IC:Slash), plus some APs spent on melee DPS (Power Atk III + SA Training 1). 2H weapon + Master's Touch + Power Atk + Tenser's Transformation (use DP clickies until then) + Rage spell + STR item (Bull's STR early on) should provide decent melee DPS. SF:Conj provides Web SLA for cheap CC. And when you get to EEs, you could go Shiradi and spam missile spells to your heart's content. I ought to diversify the caster DPS options beyond Force spells - and I'm on the fence about which order to take the metamagics - but you get the basic idea. Biggest drawback is lack of Spell Pen; basically I sacrifice it for the melee feats (+ eToughness). If you wanted CL+GC for LW+MS, I would probably drop the Toughness feats and rearrange things a bit; post-enhancement you'd lose "only" 80 HPs @ lvl 28.

    EDIT: it's basically the WF version of this PM build I posted.

    Usual caveat: the enh pass may render all of this moot.

  9. #9
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Unbongwah,

    Thanks for the input and a nice looking suggestion, I have actually been looking at several of your builds, unfortunately they are too tome and/or gear heavy for me at this point and time, maybe later though
    I believe in mind over matter. If I don't mind, it doesn't matter.

    Sarlona! Yep, back again.

  10. #10
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I'm trying a slight variation on this build here:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Tukaw-Reborn?

    This is my first legend tr build, so i had 36 points to spend. My guy has plus 3 tomes on every stat, but no plus 4's, so i started my strength at 17 instead of 18, and went with a little more dex to help out my evasion. As i recall my starting stats were:

    Warforged

    str 17 All level ups here
    dex 13
    con 17
    int 9
    wis 7
    cha 13

    Again so that the stats would even out when the plus 3 tomes kicked in.

    Will be my first two handed weapon character with blue bar self healing. I have a stash of divine power clickys i can start using at level 9, until tensor's kicks in.

    I don't plan on playing epic much with him, so i'm not overly concerned with end game viability. We'll see how it goes through heroic.

    As far as worrying about how the enhancement pass will affect it, turbine has already said there will be a lesser reincarnation plus 20 available to all existing characters. So you should be able to adjust it pretty easily. Near as i can tell, i should actually be able to get more benefit from the 2 level splashes than i do now.

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarkius View Post
    Thanks for the input and a nice looking suggestion, I have actually been looking at several of your builds, unfortunately they are too tome and/or gear heavy for me at this point and time, maybe later though
    Actually, the only tome required on that build I just posted is +3 CON for eToughness; but since (A) you don't take the feat until lvl 24 and (B) it's optional anyway, it's pretty easy to get started without anything.

    It is gear-intensive, though, since ideally you have both caster- and melee-DPS-oriented gear. If you're starting from scratch, here's where I'd spend a lot of time farming the Cannith challenges: I'd start with greataxe of fire, both rings (Stalker & Artifice), and probably Spare Hand; then pick up the cloak, boots, and/or bracers, depending on which element(s) you wanna focus on. The challenges can get tedious, especially if you need to rely on tokens to run them; but I can't think of an easier way of getting some decent gear for a melee+arcane-spells build like this when you start out with, well, nothing.

  12. #12
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Actually, the only tome required on that build I just posted is +3 CON for eToughness; but since (A) you don't take the feat until lvl 24 and (B) it's optional anyway, it's pretty easy to get started without anything.

    It is gear-intensive, though, since ideally you have both caster- and melee-DPS-oriented gear. If you're starting from scratch, here's where I'd spend a lot of time farming the Cannith challenges: I'd start with greataxe of fire, both rings (Stalker & Artifice), and probably Spare Hand; then pick up the cloak, boots, and/or bracers, depending on which element(s) you wanna focus on. The challenges can get tedious, especially if you need to rely on tokens to run them; but I can't think of an easier way of getting some decent gear for a melee+arcane-spells build like this when you start out with, well, nothing.
    Yes, challenges are a great place to get gear for many builds. I don't find them overly tedious to run personally, but i'm slightly brain damaged anyway. Id prefer to repeat challenges than farm normal quests most of the time, because there seems to be enough variation in each instance to keep it from being pure repetition. Plus i like the constant progress method of farming, as opposed to the lottery style of drop rates.

    Just get in the habit of grabbing that token every day, and you will soon build up a supply of them for when you want to run.

  13. #13
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    [...]

    It is gear-intensive, though, since ideally you have both caster- and melee-DPS-oriented gear. If you're starting from scratch, here's where I'd spend a lot of time farming the Cannith challenges: I'd start with greataxe of fire, both rings (Stalker & Artifice), and probably Spare Hand; then pick up the cloak, boots, and/or bracers, depending on which element(s) you wanna focus on. The challenges can get tedious, especially if you need to rely on tokens to run them; but I can't think of an easier way of getting some decent gear for a melee+arcane-spells build like this when you start out with, well, nothing.
    I do realize being caster and melee oriented the effectiveness of the build does cause me to rely on some pretty intense gear options and I am sure that tomes will come along (especially the way I have a tendency to run things until ransacked).

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Yes, challenges are a great place to get gear for many builds. I don't find them overly tedious to run personally, but i'm slightly brain damaged anyway. Id prefer to repeat challenges than farm normal quests most of the time, because there seems to be enough variation in each instance to keep it from being pure repetition. Plus i like the constant progress method of farming, as opposed to the lottery style of drop rates.

    [...]
    Thank you both for the input about the challenges - I will have to check them out, they are a new thing that was added with the artificer class, right? I will have to research them more since that came out right as I was winding down my play time.
    I believe in mind over matter. If I don't mind, it doesn't matter.

    Sarlona! Yep, back again.

  14. #14
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Id prefer to repeat challenges than farm normal quests most of the time, because there seems to be enough variation in each instance to keep it from being pure repetition. Plus i like the constant progress method of farming, as opposed to the lottery style of drop rates.
    I definitely prefer farming Challenges to farming quests for rare drops for a few reasons:
    • Working towards static goals rather than relying on random chance; I hate not knowing if I'll pull something I want on the first run or the 20th (or never).
    • Progress depends on player skill: the faster you can run the challenges and the higher the difficulty you can run them at, the more ingredients you earn per run. But naturally the higher you dial up the difficulty, the more likely you are to fail; so there's an user-controllable risk/reward dynamic at work.
    • All of the Challenges are soloable once you know what you're doing; and in some cases it's easier to solo than to PUG, because of the way they scale up with extra players (inc. hirelings).
    • Most Challenges can be run in 20 mins. or less - much faster than most upper-level quests. My gametime can be sporadic; it's nice to be able to login, run 1 or 2 challenges, and logout, knowing I've made some progress towards my gear goals (and hopefully had some fun too, ofc!).


    Unfortunately, I don't like the Eveningstar challenges nearly as much as the Cannith ones: partly because the gear & ingredients are all BtC rather than BtA, so I can't run them with my Challenge farmers to gear up alts; partly because Horde Mode is a lot duller than the pseudo-RTS nature of most of the Cannith challenges. But since the Eveningstar gear is all ML:16 or higher (and can't be run until you make it to Eveningstar, ofc), it'll be a while before the OP has to deal with them.

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