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  1. #1
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    Default CHA based Melee Bard

    I am currently working on a charisma based melee bard wielding Dynastic Falcata.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Drow Female
    (20 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 222
    Spell Points: 1075 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 8
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 11
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength              8                     8
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         13                    14
    Intelligence         13                    14
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             20                    30
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    26
    Bluff                 5                    10
    Concentration         5                    31
    Diplomacy             5                    10
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                5                    26
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  6                    26
    Intimidate            5                    10
    Jump                  2                    22
    Listen               -1                     1
    Move Silently         6                    26
    Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
    Perform               9                    33
    Repair                1                     2
    Search                1                     4
    Spot                 -1                     1
    Swim                 -1                    -1
    Tumble                3                     4
    Use Magic Device      9                    37
    
    Level 1 (Bard)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
    Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
    Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I
    Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
    Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration III
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
    The idea is to be able to cast spells while also being able to contribute average damage in melee. If anyone sees anything that doesn't work well or places where improvements could be made, feedback would be greatly appreciated.

    My main concerns being the current feat choices and spell pen/spell DC's.

    Thanks!
    Gregy

  2. #2
    2016 DDO Players Council PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    If you go with the Epic Elyd Edge instead you have no need to take Khopesh proficiency. It's also about five billion times easier to get AND it doesn't require you to be lawful to wield it. The sonic proc on the elyd edge is pretty decent, too, that and it makes your bard songs regenerate.

    Heighten is an EXTREMELY poor choice of a feat for bards--your highest level spells are 6th level so you're not going to get any benefit out of this feat.
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  3. #3
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Nice idea,

    the feat will make a kopesh into a martial weapon but you're not proficient with martial weapons.
    how do you negate the 40% penalty to hit?
    You mention the falcata but what are you using between lv 1 and 20 to hit stuff, 3/4 BAB and 8 str don't give you the best bonus to hit?
    I assume its the base item?


    Talking about stats, dont dump str, i see too many support types knocked down or drained of their str and move slow due to the heavy load.
    Poison has a heavy tol on str and con too, esp in higher lv content (underdark stuff alone is crawling with them) and your fort is a bit low

    you spend 5! feats to melee combat but have a +10 modefier to hit and damage? (30-10)/2=10
    thats a steep investment for some one who is interested in the casting side of things:

    *My main concerns being the current feat choices and spell pen/spell DC's.*

    My guess is that the casting side and the melee side wont be truly effective in anything above normal settings. Especialy lv 16 and above.
    (i have no clue on the singing DC's part of it all)
    Glad to know you wont steal agro from anyone, with those hp you wouldn't last too long on higher settings

    Is this a tr life build? Staying at 18 untill you tr straight away?

    edit:
    the problem with all these type of builds is limmeting yourself to a few decent (at best) weapons. it costs alot and the return is exremely low.
    the Epic Chimera's fang on the other hand deliveres a punch for the 3 feats you had to take, 3 feats on a fighter were not that hard to begin with.

    as an alternative, you might wanne look into the iconic purple dragon knight.
    Since its first level needs to fighter and nets you 1 more combat feat & more bufs and cha to hit and damage with short/long/great/bastardswords.
    the slightly lower base charisma can be compensated by gear&tomes.
    purple dragon knight
    just scroll down a bit
    Last edited by lyrecono; 07-23-2013 at 07:55 AM. Reason: explenation

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    Nice idea,

    the feat will make a kopesh into a martial weapon but you're not proficient with martial weapons.
    how do you negate the 40% penalty to hit?
    I think you're getting mixed up with exotic feats and the spell masters touch. an exotic feat provides all the training you need to hit with full accuracy. the spell masters touch just effectively gives you the martial feat, meaning exotics are not covered (unless you are a dwarf as the dwarven axe is a martial weapon for all dwarves)
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  5. #5
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    I will be playing this character as a final build, but mostly casually, a couple hours a week. The reason I have chosen the Dynastic Falcata over the suggested Elyd Edge is because the non-epic version uses the charisma modifier for both hit and damage while the Elyd Edge does not. I do not know how difficult it will be to obtain the epic version of the weapons, but I think that would be a final goal of the character, not one just to be able to play it.

    In order to qualify for the Spellsinger enhancements you must take one of the feats; Spell Focus:Enchantment or Heighten Spell. Am i wrong in thinking that, even though Bards only have lv6 spells, Heighten is a better choice than Spell Focus?

    Lyrecono noted that the character might have lower than desirable HP, is there an easy way to add HP to the build that I have missed? Two int. could be dropped to increase starting con. to 14, but that would only be an additional 20 hp at lv20.

    Here is the build updated with 14 starting con. and Spell Focus: Enchantment, although I am still not sure that it is better than Heighten Spell.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Drow Female
    (20 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 222
    Spell Points: 1075 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 8
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 11
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength              8                     8
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         11                    12
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             20                    30
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    26
    Bluff                 5                    26
    Concentration         6                    31
    Diplomacy             5                    10
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                5                    10
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  6                    26
    Intimidate            5                    10
    Jump                 -1                    -1
    Listen               -1                     1
    Move Silently         5                    26
    Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
    Perform               9                    33
    Repair                0                     1
    Search                0                     3
    Spot                 -1                     1
    Swim                 -1                    -1
    Tumble                3                     4
    Use Magic Device      9                    37
    
    Level 1 (Bard)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
    Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
    Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I
    Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
    Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration III
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
    Again, any insight would be greatly appriciated!
    Gregy

  6. #6
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Dynastic Falcata is relatively common on the auction house, at least it is on Orien where I play. It is an excellent weapon for this build concept.

    Epic Elyd Edge is another excellent choice for a build of this type. IMO it is somewhat harder to obtain (contrary to what others have posted). I have 4 or 5 Dynastic Falcatas that I've bought on the AH but have yet to gather all of the seals/shards/scrolls for even 1 eElyd.

    As with all builds being tossed around at this time, I would caution anyone NOT to think about "final" builds as the new content being tested on Lamannia will be released soon. There is every good chance that changes coming with the new content will affect any build that people are currently looking at.

    FWIW, both my paladin and my bard dual wield Dynastic Falcatas. With CHA bonuses both to hit and to damage they are much more lethal than most equivalent builds that rely instead on STR.

  7. #7
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by god.is.dead View Post
    My main concerns being the current feat choices and spell pen/spell DC's.
    The latter is going to be an issue for you. I have a TWF CHA-based Virt similar to this build; i.e., mostly focused on melee, no DC or Spell Pen boosts. On Normal I do okay with my Enchantment spells; but on Hard I doubt they land more than half the time and on E they're basically a waste of SPs (except maybe Otto's Irresistible, but that doesn't have a DC check). But rather than investing in DCs & Spell Pen, it may make more sense to focus on healing.

    Also, you don't take Power Atk or Precision; my view is all melee builds should have at least one of these stances.

  8. #8
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by god.is.dead View Post
    Am i wrong in thinking that, even though Bards only have lv6 spells, Heighten is a better choice than Spell Focus?
    Yes. Spell Focus is the better choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by god.is.dead View Post
    Lyrecono noted that the character might have lower than desirable HP, is there an easy way to add HP to the build that I have missed?
    Unfortunately, people have to make hard choices about their characters. You are in no different a situation. IMO you make a mistake selecting Drow for your race. It is initially appealing due to the higher starting CHA and you may have some personal reasons for preferring Drow. But, it makes for a poor racial choice.

    Instead select Human. In addition to gaining 2 CON you also gain an additional feat. With so many past lives behind you the additional build points (36) let you focus your attention on the stats that really matter and to benefit immensely in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by god.is.dead View Post
    My main concerns being the current feat choices and spell pen/spell DC's.
    Have to understand when spell DC comes into play and when spell pen is needed. This means understanding if the spells you will use involve a saving throw (spell DC) or permit spell resistance (spell pen).

    If there is no spell resistance then you need zero spell penetration. If there is no saving throw then you need zero DC.

    So, you only need to worry about these things if the spell you are planning to use allows a saving throw or is affected by spell resistance.

    Now, having said that, typical bard spells like dancing ball include both elements (affected by spell resistance AND allow a saving throw).

    Spell DC is based off the caster stat. This is what makes Drow attractive since they have 2 more CHA than Humans. But, this is a trap since the highest achievable CHA is going to be pretty much equivalent.

    Spell penetration requires investing in feats and enhancements. This is where human pays off. With the extra feat you immediately gain space for the first spell penetration feat. AND, if you cannot beat spell resistance then it is absolutely immaterial whether you'd win the DC check or not -- meaning your extra CHA is just wasted anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by god.is.dead View Post
    Again, any insight would be greatly appriciated!
    Switch to Human, take the Spell Penetration feat. Drop Toughness. Take the Spell Focus feat earlier and take Greater Spell Penetration in its place. At L21 take the Toughness feat if you find you need it.

    There are plenty of ways to boost HP with gear and the marginal increase in HP you'll gain from Toughness isn't going to make much difference. Meanwhile, avoiding the issues with spell penetration and seeing your spells land will more than compensate for the marginal loss of HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    But rather than investing in DCs & Spell Pen, it may make more sense to focus on healing.
    Wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Also, you don't take Power Atk or Precision; my view is all melee builds should have at least one of these stances.
    Also wrong. An honest comparison of damage will show that this really only applies to high DPS melee characters.

    Even with Dynastic Falcata and the CHA to hit/damage you are at no risk of being a high DPS melee. What you bring, potentially, is crowd control and reasonable/respectable melee damage.

    Don't let these "should have" thoughts divert you from the build's primary focus.

    If you want a DPS melee bard you don't go with Spell Singer and you don't go with TWF. Since that isn't your focus you don't throw away feats to try and fit Precision or Power Attack.

    In fact, there is almost no reason for you to build with anything other than max CHA and max CON except to give yourself enough DEX to qualify the TWF line (after tomes). Any other investment of build points into STR, INT, WIS is just wasted.
    Last edited by Therigar; 07-23-2013 at 12:57 PM.

  9. #9
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    I'm not convinced that these builds work out, but that said:

    I personally think Heighten is better than Spell Focus, because it nets me +2 on my disco balls and Hold Monsters - the spells I use the most.

    I would do something like:
    Human:
    Dex: 14 +3 tome for TWF qualifying
    Con: 17
    Cha: 18
    (35pts)

    Feats (not in order)

    1) TWF
    1) ITWF
    3) GTWF
    6) Combat feat such as: Khop/Improve Crit/Power Attack/Precision
    9) Heighten
    12) Quicken
    15) Inspire Excellence
    18) Past Life Wizzy
    21) Empower Healing
    24) Spell Focus, or perhaps another combat feat

    I would use fascinate in situations where spell pen is hard to overcome.

    You should be able to do some dps, some CC, and solid healing.
    Last edited by BoBoDaClown; 07-23-2013 at 01:41 PM.
    Server: Thelanis
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    Toons: Soza, Sozz, Sozza, Sossa (bards)

  10. #10
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    It's tempting to think that using Dynastic Falcatas (or eElyd Edges) will make this build work, because then you only have one primary stat (CHA) instead of two (CHA+STR). But that's only part of the equation; the fundamental problem with this sort of build is feat shortage. For TWF, ideally you have TWF x3, khopesh, IC:Slash, and Power Atk and/or Precision; every feat you give up means less DPS. For Enchantment spells, ideally you have Heighten, SF:Enchant x3, and Spell Pen x3; every feat you give up reduces the chances of your CC spells landing. But clearly, there's no way to fit all those feats on a pure bard, even a human one; and that's before you factor in Toughness, other metas, or Inspire Excellence.

    Which forces you to make compromises in your build: the way I see it, you either focus on CC spells and settle for sub-par melee DPS; or you focus on melee and settle for only occasionally using your CC spells. Personally, I think CC bards are gimp compared to, say, Archmage Enchanters (fewer feats, lower DCs, no SLAs), so I usually go with the latter; DPS is a sliding scale, CC is all-or-nothing.

  11. #11
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    It's tempting to think that using Dynastic Falcatas (or eElyd Edges) will make this build work, because then you only have one primary stat (CHA) instead of two (CHA+STR). But that's only part of the equation; the fundamental problem with this sort of build is feat shortage.
    Very true. The consequence is that a player must decide if they are willing to live with the resulting compromises that must be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Which forces you to make compromises in your build: the way I see it, you either focus on CC spells and settle for sub-par melee DPS; or you focus on melee and settle for only occasionally using your CC spells. Personally, I think CC bards are gimp compared to, say, Archmage Enchanters (fewer feats, lower DCs, no SLAs), so I usually go with the latter; DPS is a sliding scale, CC is all-or-nothing.
    Comparing two different classes can always result in the "gimp" label. We could easily say that melee focused bards are gimp compared to, say, barbarians.

    The proper comparison is bard to bard -- does the build perform CC on par with or better than other bards? Does the build provide DPS on par with or better than other bards? Even if the answer to both of these is no, is the combined CC and DPS on par with or better than other bards?

    For a TWF standard bard it is necessary to divide build points among 4 stats -- STR, DEX, CON and CHA. There is simply no getting around this.

    Now, a person could reject the TWF concept and go with only 3 stats -- STR, CON and CHA. But, this is really suspect when it comes to DPS unless a player is equipped with the best THF weapons and really pushes STR (not to mention really works epic destinies). Spell singer isn't going to be the PrE that they choose either.

    In other words, it isn't compromise we're talking about but a complete rejection of the build concept and moving over to something that is totally different.

    So, sticking with the TWF concept we have a choice -- divide initial stats 4 ways to include the STR option or go with a CHA based weapon set so that we can focus on just 3 stats.

    As soon as we "compromise" to go with 4 stats we weaken the character on both CC and DPS. So, choosing that as an option is a fool's errand.

    Next is the issue of limited feats. There's nothing that can be done about this. It is just a simple fact and so we have to choose where we get the most out of our feat choices.

    The TWF decision means 4 feats are going to be automatic -- the full TWF line plus the appropriate Improved Critical feat. Choosing Dynastic Falcata is also going to force our hand with another feat since we have to get the khopesh exotic weapon feat.

    This is an argument in favor of obtaining eElyd since that saves a feat selection (rapiers are bard weapons). However, in terms of ease in obtaining the weapons Dynastic Falcata is probably the better choice in most cases.

    That leaves very few feat choices remaining. And, now a player could be called on to make some difficult decisions.

    I've already made the argument for choosing Human rather than Drow. One of the most important reasons is because it gives an extra feat to work with. Using 5 means only 2 more choices thru L20 unless the character is Human -- then it leaves room for 3.

    Now, here's the reality of it -- with 3 feats left you can go the route of Precision (Power Attack is out since we won't put any build points in STR), Heighten/Spell Focus (for the Spellsinger PrE) and 1 other (Spell Penetration/Toughness).

    Precision isn't needed except in very rare situations on some very high fort end bosses so is most likely a wasted feat. And, since the build passes on STR, Power Attack is never an option.

    That means the "DPS" route is already closed when it comes time to make choices on how to "compromise."

    The only "compromise" that makes sense is to go Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Heighten/Spell Focus.

    And, of these, the only one that really is a compromise is the decision on Heighten v Spell Focus. If, as has been posted, the main CC spells are disco ball and hold monster then the +2 from Heighten might be worth it if you can afford to eat the increased spell point cost. Otherwise the choice is Spell Focus with its smaller +1.

    Now, with 2 wizard past lives it might be possible to drop the spell pen feats to pick up Toughness and/or remain Drow. Content will dictate that.

    A player sticking with heroic elites thru ehard can probably get away with that choice.

    But, in terms of "compromise" there really is no room to go the DPS route without throwing away the entire build concept (and going with a THF warchanter instead).

  12. #12
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    I think you're getting mixed up with exotic feats and the spell masters touch. an exotic feat provides all the training you need to hit with full accuracy. the spell masters touch just effectively gives you the martial feat, meaning exotics are not covered (unless you are a dwarf as the dwarven axe is a martial weapon for all dwarves)
    my mistake, i keep forgetting that master's touch is a bard spell too, my warchanter started as a barb, so i never had to use it.

    i agree on the focus part of the rest of the replies.
    the melee damage is going to be low without focus, the inflated hp of epic enemies might make you feel like your swatting flies of the back of godzilla with 2 leafs of lettuce, hoping he won't notice.

    if you focus on CC your melee part will suffer

    A downside of playing a class that suffers from MAD (multi attribute dependency), trying to solve it by being a drow really doesn't help too much.
    Gear and tomes can fill those gaps in stats left behind when choosing human/pdk/h-elf, he@k i even have seen good half Orc war chanters who specialized in the cleave tree and healing/buffing instead of cc.

  13. #13
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    That means the "DPS" route is already closed when it comes time to make choices on how to "compromise."
    It's only "closed off" because you're choosing to dump STR in this hypothetical build. But if OP started, say, STR 11 CHA 17 instead of STR 8 CHA 18, then w/+2 STR tome they could add Power Atk. That's +5 dmg per hit; +15 on crits w/Falcata; and +0.5[W] w/Imp Power Atk (avg +4.5 base dmg per hit). That is a significant boost to DPS for a pt of CHA and one more feat.

    Now, you could argue that melee DPS "isn't the focus" of this build; but then why would the OP invest five feats into melee in the first place (TWF x3, IC:S, khop prof), only to gimp themselves w/out PA?

    Enchantment spells are a PITA because the DC/SR system has the same problem that AC had for so many years; namely if you can't get your DCs & Spell Pen to a certain minimum threshold, your CC spells are useless. DPS casters have various no-saves options they can use if their DCs aren't up to snuff; a CC-focused bard isn't so lucky. Every bard has Fascinate, ofc, but you don't need max CHA to make it useful.

  14. #14
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by god.is.dead View Post
    The reason I have chosen the Dynastic Falcata over the suggested Elyd Edge is because the non-epic version uses the charisma modifier for both hit and damage while the Elyd Edge does not. I do not know how difficult it will be to obtain the epic version of the weapons, but I think that would be a final goal of the character, not one just to be able to play it.
    Personally I would go with Dynastic Falcata until I have a couple Epic Elyd Edge. Then feat swap out Khopesh Proficiency for a different feat. Either way I would never consider building around the limitations of a Heroic weapon for a character that would stay in the Epic levels.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  15. #15
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    It's only "closed off" because you're choosing to dump STR in this hypothetical build. But if OP started, say, STR 11 CHA 17 instead of STR 8 CHA 18, then w/+2 STR tome they could add Power Atk. That's +5 dmg per hit; +15 on crits w/Falcata; and +0.5[W] w/Imp Power Atk (avg +4.5 base dmg per hit). That is a significant boost to DPS for a pt of CHA and one more feat.
    Fair point. So now it comes down to the issues of spell resistance and saving throws.

    I should probably argue (as I have in other places) that a build of this type should avoid spells that are affected by spell resistance. This would eliminate the need for spell penetration. Unfortunately, I think most of the community is going to expect the dancing sphere.

    Still, it was pointed out in a cross class comparison that bard CC isn't really top of the line. So, I might encourage a player to ignore the "favorites" and to go with Greater Shout instead.

    OTOH, there are issues with that path as well.

    So, we have to ask where do we spend our limited number of feats? We're already pushing 5 with the decision to go with Dynastic Falcata. With only 8 (7 if OP sticks with their Drow decision) is it more mileage to invest in Power Attack or is it more mileage to invest in Spell Penetration?

    If the mob is dancing, or held, then it really doesn't matter if the build is short 5 to 15 points of damage per hit. And that is the key point. The extra DPS only really matters if the build fails at crowd control.

    Losing 1 point of CHA actually costs a point in DC assuming that spell penetration succeeds and a saving throw is required. Maximum Drow CHA is roughly 47-53 depending on whether you include ship buffs, DDO potions and Yugoloth potions. Humans are 1 point lower. Effectively this makes them the same as the odd point for Drow doesn't gain them anything.

    We could argue that we ought to go Drow then for the ability to lose the 1 point. Doing so, however, costs a feat (as I've said repeatedly). So, rather than being nearly assured of forcing a saving throw and opting for maximum spell DC the "compromise" you suggest is to go with ~5 points more damage per hit.

    Personally, I find that a bad trade off. Stunned, held, dancing, immobile mobs don't fight back. If it takes an extra few attacks to kill them so what?

    There is a reason why melee characters invest in stunning blow, stunning fist and so on. This build should seek to get a similar effect even though it comes by a different means. Crowd control trumps DPS in this case because the mobs don't fight back.

  16. #16
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Personally I would go with Dynastic Falcata until I have a couple Epic Elyd Edge. Then feat swap out Khopesh Proficiency for a different feat. Either way I would never consider building around the limitations of a Heroic weapon for a character that would stay in the Epic levels.
    Non-disclosure prevents me from making more direct comments. But, I will say that I've already advised against doing anything at all until after the next update and the enhancement pass. Most of what we are discussing at the moment will probably be moot when that happens.

  17. #17
    2016 DDO Players Council PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Personally, I think CC bards are gimp compared to, say, Archmage Enchanters (fewer feats, lower DCs, no SLAs), so I usually go with the latter; DPS is a sliding scale, CC is all-or-nothing.
    They are--a proper CC bard uses fascinate and (occasionally) irresistible dance.

    Short of getting the epic weapons this build is going to be staggeringly mediocre. Better to wait for PDK to come out and make a 16/2/2 bard/fighter/rogue--you'll be able to use your cha with some decent weapons that won't take dozens (elyd edges) or hundreds (dynastic falcatas) to make epic.

    You might also consider doing a single weapon and shield style--there are some nice shields out there and that would save you a huge stack of feats.
    Thelanis player: Lehren (heroic/epic completionist), Kimberlei (heroic/epic completionist), Natheme, Daiahn, Arrekeh

  18. #18
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    They are--a proper CC bard uses fascinate and (occasionally) irresistible dance.

    Short of getting the epic weapons this build is going to be staggeringly mediocre. Better to wait for PDK to come out and make a 16/2/2 bard/fighter/rogue--you'll be able to use your cha with some decent weapons that won't take dozens (elyd edges) or hundreds (dynastic falcatas) to make epic.

    You might also consider doing a single weapon and shield style--there are some nice shields out there and that would save you a huge stack of feats.
    seconded

  19. #19
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I should probably argue (as I have in other places) that a build of this type should avoid spells that are affected by spell resistance. This would eliminate the need for spell penetration. Unfortunately, I think most of the community is going to expect the dancing sphere.
    Yeah, but how many bard spells is that? All of the mez spells have an SR component; heck, so do half the sonic ones too!
    So, I might encourage a player to ignore the "favorites" and to go with Greater Shout instead.
    Shout & Greater Shout don't have a Spell Pen check, but they're Evocation, not Enchantment; which means the +2 Enchantment DCs from the bard capstone doesn't help them. They're also a Fort save, not a Will save; which means the Will debuffs a bard has (like Enthrallment, Mind Fog, Hypnotism, etc.) doesn't help them land. So you basically just trade one problem (yay, no SR check!) for another (boo, DCs!).

    Honestly, I feel like this build would be better off dual-wielding a Dynastic Falcata w/water khopesh which has Paralyzing, rather than trying to beef up CC spells on what's already a feat-starved build. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I've never been able to come up with a bard build which successfully mixes decent melee DPS w/Enchantment (or sonic) spells.

  20. #20
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    I started halfling dex focused bard with Weapon Finesse. Yeah, it costs a feat, but it is fun and i don't have problem with elite quests played at their base-normal level. As a halfling i can benefit from dex enhancements and sneak attack and attack to flanking enemy - great for support intim-tanks because it gives me additional +2/+3 to attack and +4/+6 to damage. With light armor and mobility item combined with arcane shield protection and natural armor keeping defence chance above 55% + blur and displacement. Dex focuss gives me both attack and AC, Damage can be boosted by procs (lacerating, elemental bursts, banes, holy, pure good) .

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng10), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic8)

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