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Thread: Racial Paragon

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    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Racial Paragon

    Consider adding a capstone like enhancement for racial enhancement trees. The "AP spent in tree" requirement would have to be much lower than PrE tree capstones for anyone to take it. Even then, it would be passed over by most builds for more prestige enhancements. As a result, the only way to make them tempting would be to make the very powerful, yet not game breaking. Personally, I want this badly for my halflings. I know there is a huge elf following that would most likely want something similar.

    Example:
    Halfling Paragon
    +2 Dex
    +2 Hide, Jump and Move Silently
    +2 Attack and Damage with thrown weapons
    +2d6 Sneak Attack damage

    Normally, this would be too much for one enhancement, but most players will pass it over for more appealing class enhancements, especially considering the "AP spent in tree" requirement and that some builds don't use any racial enhancements.

  2. #2
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolpenguin410 View Post
    Consider adding a capstone like enhancement for racial enhancement trees. The "AP spent in tree" requirement would have to be much lower than PrE tree capstones for anyone to take it. Even then, it would be passed over by most builds for more prestige enhancements. As a result, the only way to make them tempting would be to make the very powerful, yet not game breaking. Personally, I want this badly for my halflings. I know there is a huge elf following that would most likely want something similar.

    Example:
    Halfling Paragon
    +2 Dex
    +2 Hide, Jump and Move Silently
    +2 Attack and Damage with thrown weapons
    +2d6 Sneak Attack damage

    Normally, this would be too much for one enhancement, but most players will pass it over for more appealing class enhancements, especially considering the "AP spent in tree" requirement and that some builds don't use any racial enhancements.
    This is much too strong to require an investment of under 40 required AP in the racial tree. I consider this slightly weaker than the assassin capstone (+2 int +4d6 sneak attack). The assassin capstone costs much more to get because it prevents muliclassing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book_O_Dragons View Post
    This is much too strong to require an investment of under 40 required AP in the racial tree. I consider this slightly weaker than the assassin capstone (+2 int +4d6 sneak attack). The assassin capstone costs much more to get because it prevents muliclassing.
    By your statement, I feel that means it's right where it should be. I do not mean for paragon enhancements to compete directly with capstones. They should be an option the primary benefits of which are most useful for the quintessential creature of that particular race. They should also reflect the original flavor of the race.

    Case in point: halflings are sneaky, good at throwing and rogue is their favored class.

    It is my opinion that this enhancement would still be passed over for much tastier class enhancements. I know my assassin rogue would benefit from it, yet would be hard-pressed to fit it into its build.

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    This would also be an interesting option if you have completed all 13 classes (not iconic) classes using the same race. So you can select completionist and unlock (insert race here) paragon feat.

  5. #5
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    This has come up before.

    If you do a life through one of every class, you get "Completionist".

    If you do a life through one of every race, you get "Racist" ..... no wait a minute, that's not right.

  6. #6
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolpenguin410 View Post
    By your statement, I feel that means it's right where it should be. I do not mean for paragon enhancements to compete directly with capstones. They should be an option the primary benefits of which are most useful for the quintessential creature of that particular race. They should also reflect the original flavor of the race.

    Case in point: halflings are sneaky, good at throwing and rogue is their favored class.

    It is my opinion that this enhancement would still be passed over for much tastier class enhancements. I know my assassin rogue would benefit from it, yet would be hard-pressed to fit it into its build.
    I think they need to compete directly with capstones and still be weaker than actual capstones +2 dex, +2 sneak&hide and 2d6 sneak attack for 2 AP is about the level I would place the Halfling paragon.
    The opportunity cost should be enough that no pure class character would take it when in the class most favored by their race but might take it while multiclassed in a second tier class/race combination like Halfling Ranger/Fighter Arcane Archer/Kensai build might take it if they also were taking the dragonmark of healing to build points in tree but otherwise invest in deepwood sniper without the dragonmark.
    I think it needs to be 40 AP spent in tree or be much weaker +2 stat, +2 for 2 skills or +3 for 1 skill for 2 AP if priced at 20 AP in tree and not displacing any current enhancements. If displacing the 5th core ability on the racial tree NO stat +1 Hide, Jump and Move Silently +2 Attack and Damage with thrown weapons +1d6 Sneak Attack damage at 2 AP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book_O_Dragons View Post
    I think they need to compete directly with capstones and still be weaker than actual capstones +2 dex, +2 sneak&hide and 2d6 sneak attack for 2 AP is about the level I would place the Halfling paragon.
    If it's competing with capstones, why should it be weaker? If the investment to get there is the same as a capstone, you are purposely making this always the worse choice. This does not make any sense to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Book_O_Dragons View Post
    The opportunity cost should be enough that no pure class character would take it when in the class most favored by their race but might take it while multiclassed in a second tier class/race combination like Halfling Ranger/Fighter Arcane Archer/Kensai build might take it if they also were taking the dragonmark of healing to build points in tree but otherwise invest in deepwood sniper without the dragonmark.
    You make a good case, but why just a benefit for the off class or the multiclass characters? I think it should benefit the archetypical class/race combo as well. That's the point of being a paragon, right?

    I continue to believe that paragon enhancements should be strong (but not as strong as capstones) and easier to get than capstones. The flavor of the enhancement should reflect the favored class of that race.

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