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  1. #1
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    Default DPS comparison between TWF and THF?

    About to TR to a fighter life, will probably start with a rogue level or two. I've always done THF on previous melees and have a nice stockpile of items for them, and even pulled a Cleaver last life, so was going to do that again. But I've always also wanted to try a TWF, and I've got a few nifty khopeshes as well.

    I realize it all depends on build, but how do the two compare, in general terms? Any other pros/cons I should think about?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    About to TR to a fighter life, will probably start with a rogue level or two. I've always done THF on previous melees and have a nice stockpile of items for them, and even pulled a Cleaver last life, so was going to do that again. But I've always also wanted to try a TWF, and I've got a few nifty khopeshes as well.

    I realize it all depends on build, but how do the two compare, in general terms? Any other pros/cons I should think about?

    Thanks.
    If it's just for leveling then you will TR, it's hard to beat Cleave/Great cleave with the Weapon damage of a 2 handers. I think that is the biggest point you should consider. That and the weapons you have at your disposal!

    Though it can't be bad to do it differently if you've always done THF. I'd say, in your case, TWF for fun and a tad different experience vs THF for efficiency (Since you're used to it and I bet you got good weapons)

    Edit: If you're going for epic levels, then I do not have to knowledge/personal experience to tell you what's best. Have fun.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-19-2013 at 07:59 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Thanks for the reply.

    My overall plan is to go through the various classes one at a time. This will be my 7th life. I do like to go up to epic levels now and play with them for a while, but I usually get bored of "endgame" and TR after a few weeks at most, depending on how much I'm enjoying that particular life.

    It does seem like a lot of damage boosts are tied to two-handed weapons. There's the extra damage boost from Power Attack, which is somewhat mandatory on a melee, and then if you go half-orc there are further boosts that make it hard to argue with.

    I guess I could also wait for my rogue and ranger lives to play with TWF.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I guess I could also wait for my rogue and ranger lives to play with TWF.
    That's a good idea since with those lives, there are no way you will be using THF. Though if you're the kind of player that takes it slow, I would suggest go for fun and not efficiency. Otherwise... well yeah, efficiency and THF as a fighter. As you said, there are a couple skills/feats that are based off Weapon Damage and some good enhancements for power attack and THF if you make a WF or Half-Orc.

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  5. #5
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    You know the beautiful part about being a fighter? All those wonderful feats.

    Seriously though, just take all the feats for both styles of fighting. That way you can utilize all the setups you could want, testing them out while still using the setup you're most accustomed to. Plus with the Enhancement pass (which you'll tr before then, but whatever) Khopeshes and Greatswords are classified as Heavy blades, meaning that every benefit you'd have for 1 you get for the other.

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    Yeah I'll probably be on to something else by the time U19 hits.

    You're right that there are lots of feats to play with in a nearly-pure fighter.

    Someone said that fighters will be changing fairly drastically with U19, so I considered doing rogue next instead, but then those will also probably change a lot with U19.

  7. #7
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Rogues go from being #1 dps in the game to being So supremely awesome that I am all giddy about it. But then again, mine has a 2 monk splash and maxish wisdom, so she just stuns stuff.

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  8. #8
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    just take the twf feats + cleave+ great cleave and play that toon with a thf weapon anyway. you`ll still be better off than doing twf.

    a good number of builds abuse the fact that you can have a thf toon without actually taking a feat. eff me for saying its imba

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    Default Rogues and Rangers

    Rangers - they get the TWF feats for free, and end up with 100% offhand hits. Obvious.

    Rogues - Sneak Attack damage is per hit and dwarfs the weapon base damage for any decent rogue. Blindness and effect procs are per hit, and rogues rely on them. Essential.

    Fighter - even with the free feats, you need to plan carefully. Possible but tricky.

    The accepted wisdom is that TWF can be better against a single boss, but cleaving THF is always better against mobs of mobs.

    So, if you like a challenge, and like playing in a party, go for it. Otherwise wait for Ranger and Rogue lives.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Since Cleave and greater Cleave were changed a number of odd but nice things have happened to DPS balance from the perspective of someone who likes to think outside the box.

    A) Have you seen how fast a Sword and Board cleaves? Couple with double strike from shield feats and ED attacks like Momentum swing etc. and S&B is more viable for specialized builds than it's ever been. That's not to say it's up to TWF and THF level but it's a viable trade off if you need PRR, or the build is conducive to S&B (Tanky Pali's for example). My guards based FvS melee needs the PRR from Shield feats, and the glancing blows and AOE effects of a Celestia bastard sword S&B but wont have room for THF to max the Bastard sword glances. Cleaves make it nso I don't miss the extra glances (honestly unless you're maxing Barb/Horc enhancements for glances I have never found glances to be much fun) Yes it's still S&B but it's a lot more fun than S&B used to be.

    B) TWF that uses ED AOE and one shot attacks plus Cleave/Greater feats can nearly drop TWF feats (or at least seriously consider it) because you can minimize normal attacks (thus off hand proc rate is of reduced significance). This is especially true if you have Supreme cleave, or Smites+Infinite Smiting/Divine Sacrifice taking up attacks as well. After the enhancement pass when 3 Barb will be "A thing" (Supreme cleave is at level 3 Barb in the last preview) it will basically be pointless for certain TWF builds to waste feats on TWF. Especially if they only get 7 heroic feats (like a pure Pali or Barb) or are using them for something crazy like my Ninja (Monk/Fighter) unarmed build that uses Whirlwind attack (Animation is fast and awesome on a monk unlike a weapon melee) but she also Cleaves and will use ED AOE swings. (Yes my Monk Cleaves, try it, it's nearly fightclub worthy) though I am multi TR'ing her and she has feats to spare, I doubt I will take any TWF feats because I can string Cleave Greater Whirlwind, and Momentum Swing (etc.) together with Ki strikes and finishers and be more effective.

    C) All this applies double for THF... My THF Cleric used to have THF feats... now he swings a Drow Greataxe cleaving + greater and I am eyeballing 3 Barb 17 Cleric as a respec to get him Supreme cleave which (again) along with ED special attacks will minimize normal left mouse button attacks to the point where not taking feats to improve the glances on those attacks is a worthy trade off worth considering.

    As a variation on B) I could even see making a TWF weapon (not unarmed) build that took no TWF feats. this build would equip a "complimentary" weapon in the off hand (Or a Rune Arm). Something like a Treason/Rebellion that has a couple really nice affixes that proc on the main hand (armor piercing is I believe like Seeker and Stunning +10 DC an off hand affix that will proc on both hands but I could be wrong, if so pick another example). Add for example Rogue levels to this and you're getting sneak attack damage on multiple cleaves, and the off hand weapon (in this case) is applying improved deception (maybe haven't tested?) 20% armor piercing (haven't tested but I believe it procs both hands) and -25% reduced threat (definitely works both hands) and sneak attack weapon bonus (also definitely procs on both hands) along with a red slot (Devotion/Reconstruction augment for Heal Cocoon maybe? or maybe they release a Red Seeker/Exceptional seeker augment at some point)

    Another variation on that is a caster that wants to melee some (holding stuff in firewall), holding a caster stick in the off hand, and a good melee weapon in the main hand. so for example off hand might be: Combustion of Superior Fire lore, and Main hand might be Mountains Fist (three red augments for spell power) on a Dwarven Wiz or Adaxus (2 red augments for spell power)... OR my personal favorite for my Bladeforged Pali/Sorc: a Dynastic Falcatta in the main hand (2 red augments for spell power and CHA/CHA to hit and damage) with a Skiver in the off hand. Taking 3-4 melee feats (power attack and two Cleaves, or in my Pali/Sorc's case Khopesh power attack and two cleaves) in an era when there are 2 Epic (soon to be 3) feats available: is not unthinkable for a nuking caster build (Quicken, Max, Empower, Heighten, Evok focus, Greater focus leaves 1 + 2 Epic feats), especially one that will run out of SP on occasion; So having a melee option is useful to get to the next shrine. Now granted Spell Penn will suffer, so adjust spell selection accordingly. Personally on a Sorc and FvS where spell selection is tight anyway, I kinda like the "easy decisions" when some types of spells are not worth taking (most enchantment in this example).

    I'd say the state of DPS (from a seat of the pants viewpoint but not a crunchy one necessarily) is "far more balanced".
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-19-2013 at 12:53 PM.

  11. #11
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    I don't have the minute dps figures comparisons (and frankly, who cares?) - but the evidence (?) indicates that THF builds get the mega 10K+ crits and TWF don't get anywhere close to that.
    In my limited experience I have a 5th life Khopesh TWF who's best adrenalin crit ever was 4k, - and regular crits come in (a lot) at 400 to 700 or so.
    She does ok so I'm not bothered.

    The only thing I would say is that Fury Eternal kicks in A lot with a TWF ...gets more swings, rolls more 20's, gets Adrenalin recharged faster than a 2HF will.

    She rarely runs too low on adrenalins which is a nice bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post

    The only thing I would say is that Fury Eternal kicks in A lot with a TWF ...gets more swings, rolls more 20's, gets Adrenalin recharged faster than a 2HF will.
    Which is a huge point to consider if he intends on running in Epic levels. I do not believe that is the intention of the OP.

  13. #13
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    One thing I like about 2HF is the extra range and AOE add in lag, mobs that hit you back just out of single weapon range, and mobs that run around even after you stun, hold, dance them I would say go 2hf. Also it saves a lot on inventory space. I only 2wf on my main because.........I dont know I just like the stlye, i prefer 2wf or SB only 2hf if we had spears or pole arms but we don't.

    2wf does have a sort of utility value you can combine different weapon sets, stunner in one hand, something else in the other..... other than that nothing that much better. Unless your a rogue or have a lot of sneak attack? then I guess 2wf looks better?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post
    mega 10K+ crits and TWF don't get anywhere close to that..
    I have hit 6 - 7k momentums blitzing boosted on helpless, and that's on stalwart.
    Kensei with every buff, past lives, and something like Adaxus surely can break 8 - 9k or much more , if you are bored and want big numbers.
    Moar high number = moar deeps !

    No seriously, since we don't have any way to measure it, only subjective stuff like kill counts ( YES I KNOW, please totally tell me how s+b in shiradi1 with 10 citw or Detour kills is awesome and the rest is just padding their kill counts ) or blitzing quests like EE Trial or Cry with nanny, it takes the same time for twf and thf in average in my experience.

  15. #15
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    One thing you have to remember. TWF Benefits by such an incredible amount from the feats that it's not really worth dropping the feats for them like Ironclan said. Yes the cleaves will be a nice touch, but even a pure barb can take the 3 feats for twf, and the feats for Overwhelming Critical. That still gives you plenty of raw power for mobs while granting you just a massive amount of power to any single object. My rogue is a good example of this. I have a staff I swing about in mobs, diploing them off of me (which doesn't usually work since my diplo is suck) then every once and a while swapping to wraps (2 monk splash for an alternate toughness slot, higher attack speed, and stunning fists) and beating someones face in like Ip Man.

    I had an old barb test build that was set up like this. Dual wielder with the cleave feats and manyshot, but was still a primary twf toon. Run in, cleaves mobs (always was a good test bed for dps weapon setups), choose one mob that really needs to be f*cked in particular, and rip it apart with either Manyshot or twf.

  16. #16
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Don't underestimate TWF cleaves.
    Sure you don't get off hand attack while cleaving, but things like alchemicals' AoE on vorpal or celestia's greater sunburst are applied on main hand attacks (saw triple greater sunburst while lay wasting with templars justice mainhand + celestia offhand).
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  17. #17
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    Default My Kensei III Dorf Fighter is a veritable whirling dervish of death and destruction.

    He's mainly a TWF, but can switch to THF no problem.
    While I am quite certain he's not the most uber fighter in the game, he can hold his own against most mobs.
    I've started calling him "The Wood Chipper", because when he's wielding two decent axes, with the power surge, sundering blows and the fighter haste boost clickie....whoa.

    He's deadlier than my main fighter is now. Can't wait to burn through Shiradi to get to Fury, then he's gonna be a monster.

    Next life I will not go the cookie-cutter route when I start over. Since he was the second toon I made, I didn't know enough about multi-classing to mess with it....Still don't really, but now I'm not too chicken to try it, lol.

  18. #18
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    One thing you have to remember. TWF Benefits by such an incredible amount from the feats that it's not really worth dropping the feats for them like Ironclan said. Yes the cleaves will be a nice touch, but even a pure barb can take the 3 feats for twf, and the feats for Overwhelming Critical.
    The reason why it's worth *considering* (not saying it's an easy choice) dropping TWF feats (one, two, or all three) is that Cleaves don't give off hand proc's. If you have enough cleaves and other AOE attacks that you can string them along and only left button attack briefly between the cool down of the first cleave and the last AOE attack then your time spent using the TWF feats is possibly pretty minimal, and possibly not worth spending three feats on.

    Now you might say "well whats the point of having an off hand weapon, why not just go THF or S&B, for more offense or more defense. Well there are specialized builds that can really use the types of off hand affixes that proc on the main hand weapon regardless of the off hand getting a proc or not (sneak attack, stunning +10, reduced threat, Armor Piercing, Seeker to name a few, I'm sure there are others), a Rogue assassin for example that doesn't take TWF feats, but also has little use for S&B, but wants to use Rebellion and/or Epic Midnight Greetings.

    Now you might ALSO say well then just screw cleaves and only use left mouse button attacking and the TWF feats, but I am taking the Cleaves to get to Overwhelming crit on so many builds anyway that not cleaving feels gimpy I would say (seat of the pants again: no number crunching done) that Cleaves are just that good that even without off hand procs you're doing significantly more damage on builds that are meant to take advantage of it. My Monk for example, is a spinning whirling Double Dragon Tornado kicking fool. Not sure I can see putting 3 TWF feats on her the next go round... between Ki Strikes and finishers and AOE attacks, when does she left mouse attack? The answer is on the odd occasion when she doesn't want to gather Agrro.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-20-2013 at 12:41 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but I must have missed something . . . how the hell is not taking the TWFing feats on a TWFer a good idea?

    Even on your monk . . . you know ToD and SF proc on the off-hand, right?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Don't underestimate TWF cleaves.
    Sure you don't get off hand attack while cleaving, but things like alchemicals' AoE on vorpal or celestia's greater sunburst are applied on main hand attacks (saw triple greater sunburst while lay wasting with templars justice mainhand + celestia offhand).
    You are over-estimating their use.

    It annoys me that I have to take these feats on a TWFer to get OC.

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