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  1. #21
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    yeah i see this as a common thing on argo whether it be a party or a raid people taking over another's party. I really annoys me when they do that. Let the leader try to sort it out unless they literally said hey can you help or i dont want to lead. i just setup the party. Some of the players that do it have ego problems, some are elitist, some are just trying to be helpful. I guess it can come out in any form
    Yeah, this can happen a lot on Argo for some reason. I'm not sure on the % but a lot of the people "taking over" can really ruin a raid if the leader is already leading. If there is no leadership at all, call the person with the star out on it first, and if it doesn't get better do something about it yourself. But I see a lot more of, leader in the middle of explanation on how this fights going to go when ***hole A pipes in with "That's not how it's done!" and things slowly degrade because people get confused, and ***hole A just seems to argue with anything anyone says at that point while trying to fix the mess.

    It really does come out in any form, I think it just has a lot to do with how the situation is handled. Usually sending a tell to the person with the star first asking if they mind if you help them lead or w.e is the way to go about it.
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  2. #22
    Community Member bluejadex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Yeah, this can happen a lot on Argo for some reason. I'm not sure on the % but a lot of the people "taking over" can really ruin a raid if the leader is already leading. If there is no leadership at all, call the person with the star out on it first, and if it doesn't get better do something about it yourself. But I see a lot more of, leader in the middle of explanation on how this fights going to go when ***hole A pipes in with "That's not how it's done!" and things slowly degrade because people get confused, and ***hole A just seems to argue with anything anyone says at that point while trying to fix the mess.

    It really does come out in any form, I think it just has a lot to do with how the situation is handled. Usually sending a tell to the person with the star first asking if they mind if you help them lead or w.e is the way to go about it.
    Wow, I've not seen any of that on Cannith. I either see the starred 'leader' leading, no leadership at all, or someone else leading. I've not experienced people arguing over the 'right' way to do something or talking over another person who's trying to explain.
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  3. #23
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluejadex View Post
    Wow, I've not seen any of that on Cannith. I either see the starred 'leader' leading, no leadership at all, or someone else leading. I've not experienced people arguing over the 'right' way to do something or talking over another person who's trying to explain.
    Purely conjecture here but I have a bit of a theory;

    I believe many of the cases where this type of thing comes about is a person who's been in closed channel/guild runs where they had leadership role for a long time, or where in a similar role on a different server where they did things differently(like part 2 of shroud.). So they're not only used to a leadership role, and people listening to them, but they also think they're in the right because people aren't doing it the way ***hole A knows how.

    This type of thing isn't really the norm, even on Argo. But I have noticed it a lot more on Argo than on other servers.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    yeah i see this as a common thing on argo whether it be a party or a raid people taking over another's party. I really annoys me when they do that. Let the leader try to sort it out unless they literally said hey can you help or i dont want to lead. i just setup the party. Some of the players that do it have ego problems, some are elitist, some are just trying to be helpful. I guess it can come out in any form
    And this post exactly is why I'm extremely careful about it and wait until things have gone horrifically wrong and no one else seems to be rallying anyone around to a common goal. And to be clear, I don't think my GAMING skills are better than these other players, I just think my ability to organize in THAT particular situation might be useful to the group. I'm not a proud turtle, I just want to be a dependable one.

    I have no problem running my own lfm's (or making the guys in my group share turns!) as evidenced by the current spate of Minddancer, Drebattle, and Maasdam lfms on Sarlona the last few days (we're tossing them up for every quest we do in this group this week to give ourselves a chance to meet some new players and new players a chance to meet some vets maybe), but I also have no problem taking orders from other people when I join their lfm's. I just want to have fun and meet fun people to kill with. Wow, that makes me sound like a serial killer turtle, I'm shutting up now.
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  5. #25
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    . I just want to have fun and meet fun people to kill with.
    They make padded rooms for people like you, and me. You should try them out sometime. They're very comfy. :3
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    They make padded rooms for people like you, and me. You should try them out sometime. They're very comfy. :3
    I KNOW right? LOL The things I say in conversations revolving gaming would scare me in general life. LOL And I think it's part of the reason non-gamers view us a little bit with the idea that we're all whackjobs. I was once working on skinning my friends cats for the sims (I'm not an uber skininer or anything, but I can photo manip enough that she was thrilled and they looked reasonably like her cats) when someone messaged me and asked what I was doing, and without a second thought replied "Skinning my friend S's cats". Never heard from that messager again. LOL It could be argued that they should have asked what I was talking about, but I think they were creeped out and ran far far away.
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  7. #27
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by humbleroller View Post
    thats the assumption that causes the problem. What about the barb on 1 that just keeps killings the djinn ?
    No that's the reason for the everyone else go afk ending. Von 6 is like HOX, you can talk and type, and talk some more, but like the old saying, you can't fix stupid.

    Though 6 is a lil bit easier where you can just drop a base in seconds on hard and norm. If you got a common weapon for the alter.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by humbleroller View Post
    thats the assumption that causes the problem. What about the barb on 1 that just keeps killings the djinn ?
    Funny you should say that as I was in a group once when that happened, the barb was so intent he did not stop for voice chat or party chat. When he eventualy died I left his stone till all 3 pillars were done. Eventualy after a few tells I found out that he had only ever done Heroic so had not come across the Djon's before so it is NOT always the case of a bad leader but a follower who does not pay attention to voice or party chat

  9. #29
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    You should be able to lead the raid you post. Other day we wait forever to fill a FoT on Hard. Leader's post was main/best ED. Which would have been fine if it werent for the fact that he was a melee in Grandmaster Flowers tier 0... Someone asked him why that was and he told everyone to mind their own freaking-not the real word used- business. That he was so good and million times, yada yada. Half the group just dropped.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    You should be able to lead the raid you post.
    I respectfully disagree. Turbine does not provide instructions to a handful of randomly picked people and say "Here is how you do this raid, lead the others". Players go in, on both Lammania and later live, and figure it out. Expecting people to 100% have to 'lead' a raid comes across basically saying "I don't want to have to figure anything out, it's your job to tell me what to do and if we fail I get to blame you and not share the responsibility of it".

    Also, we have a serious lack of lfms. Not because we have a lack of players out there, or even on the forums really, but because we have a lot of players afraid to post lfms and TRY new things and figure them out. I agree with the poster who said it would be a good idea to post that they are new to it, but I find it entirely unfair that anyone would say something that sounds like "Be able to lead every little bit or don't post a group' to any one else in a game.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by humbleroller View Post
    After fail number 3 of Von 6 (EH) I have come here to say that if you are leading a raid then you need to lead the @!^$*** raid. Tell people what to do because many do not know.

    So yet again Von 6 has failed because a whole 30 seconds was spent discussing what was going to be done. The leader either didnt have a mic or didnt want to talk (If you cant use your mic, please pass the star to someone who can). A simple explanation of what to do would have stopped a lot of confusion. Its more than just assigning bases.

    3 times it has been assumed that people knew what they were doing. 3 times it has gone south.
    Tell us what to do.
    We do it.
    We finish.

    thanks.
    I'm curious: did he observe the same lack of communication in part 5? Because if that's the case, eleven other people had at least a half-hour to speak up, take charge, or drop. I'm not saying the leader isn't responsible in this scenario; maybe he didn't have a clue and didn't want to say so. But if you realize your time is being wasted, and you have the means to fix it and you don't, how much can you complain?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    I respectfully disagree. Turbine does not provide instructions to a handful of randomly picked people and say "Here is how you do this raid, lead the others". Players go in, on both Lammania and later live, and figure it out. Expecting people to 100% have to 'lead' a raid comes across basically saying "I don't want to have to figure anything out, it's your job to tell me what to do and if we fail I get to blame you and not share the responsibility of it".

    Also, we have a serious lack of lfms. Not because we have a lack of players out there, or even on the forums really, but because we have a lot of players afraid to post lfms and TRY new things and figure them out. I agree with the poster who said it would be a good idea to post that they are new to it, but I find it entirely unfair that anyone would say something that sounds like "Be able to lead every little bit or don't post a group' to any one else in a game.
    Umm, whoa. You got way too much off my post from reading between lines that arent there. If I need someone to lead I will say so. But I won't just post raid group as leader and try new things on 11 other randos! Very rude, I would think If done to me.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogMania View Post
    Funny you should say that as I was in a group once when that happened, the barb was so intent he did not stop for voice chat or party chat. When he eventualy died I left his stone till all 3 pillars were done. Eventualy after a few tells I found out that he had only ever done Heroic so had not come across the Djon's before so it is NOT always the case of a bad leader but a follower who does not pay attention to voice or party chat
    Heh! I had the opposite problem; I didn't own VoN till I was past heroic level for it, so I "learned" it on Epic. First time I ran Heroic, I went to my usual spot, killed all the ice reavers waiting for the Djinn to show up, and when I turned around and the pillar shield had already gone down, I just took it for granted someone else had slaughtered the Djinn while my back was turned. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's not that I wasn't paying attention to chat; I was one of the people yammering about our timing being off! It's just that I had absolutely no idea that I was contributing to our failing.

    Indeed, it was only because I stopped to watch what we were doing and who was screwing up, and could clearly see there was no Djinn, and mentioned that in chat, that I finally found out there wasn't supposed to be one!

    Also, while I have run VON6 maybe a dozen times by now, at no time has anyone ever explained to me why I was being sent to this base or that base. It's perfectly obvious there's a thought process behind it, but if I tried to lead the raid I'd be just guessing about what that process is, much less how I was supposed to allot the specific toons in my party.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by humbleroller View Post
    thats the assumption that causes the problem. What about the barb on 1 that just keeps killings the djinn ?
    lol at least its a barb, hopefully he wont have any self healing you just back off stop healing him let him die, then toss his stone off the edge.

    The last time we failed it was because of a wf sorc, he kept killing the djin almost oneshoting it over and over. He killed that thing over 10 times in a row, I tried to dance him but the dance didnt proc with my 3 charges, and yeah some people just left the raid in disgust we didnt even get to the point where we actually *wiped*

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    I respectfully disagree. Turbine does not provide instructions to a handful of randomly picked people and say "Here is how you do this raid, lead the others". Players go in, on both Lammania and later live, and figure it out.
    I find this comment interesting because I've often wondered how this does work. As a non-Lammania player, it always seems to me that by the time the new content gets to the live servers, there's almost always someone in the party who has figured it all out already.

    I remember when I first ran Fall of Truth, we formed the party, then were surprised to discover none of us had actually done it yet. Did we go and figure it out? No, we scrounged up someone to teach us, who already had the answers.

    And frankly, I was glad we did, because the process we had to follow was complex enough that -- not for the first time -- I found myself thinking, "Who are the people who have the godlike patience to figure all this stuff out the first time through, and to fail it repeatedly in the process?"

    So yes, while it seemed unlikely, I have sometimes wondered whether maybe Turbine found itself giving out hints to the new content, because people were getting frustrated!

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    lol at least its a barb, hopefully he wont have any self healing you just back off stop healing him let him die, then toss his stone off the edge.

    The last time we failed it was because of a wf sorc, he kept killing the djin almost oneshoting it over and over. He killed that thing over 10 times in a row, I tried to dance him but the dance didnt proc with my 3 charges, and yeah some people just left the raid in disgust we didnt even get to the point where we actually *wiped*
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlannis View Post
    Also, while I have run VON6 maybe a dozen times by now, at no time has anyone ever explained to me why I was being sent to this base or that base. It's perfectly obvious there's a thought process behind it, but if I tried to lead the raid I'd be just guessing about what that process is, much less how I was supposed to allot the specific toons in my party.
    I run vons at both heroic and epic, and I can tell you MY thought process when I assign bases, but not a general "THIS IS THE ONE WAY!"

    First I watch during the preraid to see if I have anyone who seems to be struggling, and usually take them with me if I'm doing one or two, or put them with my husband if I'm doing three. Struggling toons on 3 is bad.

    Base 2: Any casters or bards I think have any kind of crowd control. I'm not 100% certain it still happens, but my experience says people can get blown outta the raid by the mephitis. Also, a dimension door gets these people out in the rural end of nowhere back faster. I send a dps for the djinn and a healer to support them al if possible.

    Base 3: Anyone with evasion, and the second crowd control option if I have one goes here, and a healer to keep everyone alive from the masses of fire being tossed around. Again this is MY experience, but this is the base that usually goes wrong if something does. If I don't have any evasion/caster types at all, then I just pick whoever I observed keeps themselves alive best.

    Base 1: Whoever is left over, after I made sure to give them fom so the ice elementals lose their irritation factor. Base one I feel is the easiest by far both to survive and to heal potentially squishy toons on, and is the easiest to keep under control without cc for a group.

    Occasionally if I have a really green newbie player or someone with a scary low amount of hp I'll ask them to stay at home base until we take the pillars down so the people on the bases can focus on their task vs. keeping someone on the bridges/alive.

    Those are the things I think about when I decide who I want to send where. Someone else may have a completely different criteria.
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  18. #38
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    I hit reply too soon and it won't let me edit the post, just hangs. I just wanted to add that Sarlona uses a reverse baseball diamond for some reason, and some of the other servers I played on use the regular one, so if people think I've lost my mind saying base 3 evasion, that's fire and one is ice on my server.
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  19. #39
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    Thanks, Trinity!

    And yes, I've run it mostly on Orien but once on Sarlona, and was really confused when the bases got switched on me!

    Now I just have to go back through your post and mentally switch-hit...

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    Another point that kind of ties to my comments about VoN is that there's often a huge learning curve between being a veteran at running a certain raid and being able to actually lead it. The VoN6 bases were just one example.

    I've run the Shroud 40 times (which I realize is not all that many by some standards!). I know all the maps like the back of my hand. But at no time have I *ever* been the person pulling the bosses in part 2, or the person breaking the crystal. The first, I could probably do successfully from watching it done, but the second I've never even seen. Sometimes I want to ask if I can tag along just to get a feel for it!

    This is the sort of thing that makes me extremely cautious about putting up LFMs for the raids I wish people were still running.

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