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  1. #681
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I'm guessing that would depend on the player. I'm thinking some might be introspective enough, that when they find the game has nothing left for them than to play it as fast as possible simply to get past it, to simply conclude the game no longer has anything of use to them.
    After you've run a quest once it's meta-gaming.

    Seriously . . . how many times can you flower-sniff a quest? How can it feel new and fresh if you've run it multiple times?

  2. #682
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Don't you see you're own hypocrisy in this? In your opinion everyone who zergs is playing wrong.
    Shush! Don't you know the noble long-suffering casual player is oppressed by the veteran good players?

    I have the same reactions whenever I hear the "oppressed" whine about something.

  3. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Don't you see you're own hypocrisy in this? In your opinion everyone who zergs is playing wrong.
    No, in my opinion everyone who zergs is choosing to zerg for their own reasons. That doesn't make zerging a natural evolution anymore than say joining a fraternity (or sorority) is a natural evolution of being a collage student. Some feel that would help fulfill one or more personal goal and some don't. I just don't generally see zerging fulfilling any personal goal, so don't generally do it.

    Though, even if it was my preferred play style, I'd likely disagree with the absolute statement that it is a natural evolution just as I'd say the same thing now about how I do play.

  4. #684
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No, in my opinion everyone who zergs is choosing to zerg for their own reasons. That doesn't make zerging a natural evolution anymore than say joining a fraternity (or sorority) is a natural evolution of being a collage student. Some feel that would help fulfill one or more personal goal and some don't. I just don't generally see zerging fulfilling any personal goal, so don't generally do it.

    Though, even if it was my preferred play style, I'd likely disagree with the absolute statement that it is a natural evolution just as I'd say the same thing now about how I do play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I'm guessing that would depend on the player. I'm thinking some might be introspective enough, that when they find the game has nothing left for them than to play it as fast as possible simply to get past it, to simply conclude the game no longer has anything of use to them.
    Your second quote seems to state that if a zerger is being introspective they should realize they should just quit.

  5. #685
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No, in my opinion everyone who zergs is choosing to zerg for their own reasons. That doesn't make zerging a natural evolution anymore than say joining a fraternity (or sorority) is a natural evolution of being a collage student. Some feel that would help fulfill one or more personal goal and some don't. I just don't generally see zerging fulfilling any personal goal, so don't generally do it.

    Though, even if it was my preferred play style, I'd likely disagree with the absolute statement that it is a natural evolution just as I'd say the same thing now about how I do play.
    How many times can you run a friggin quest before it becomes second nature? Do you seriously flower-sniff quests you've run multiple times?

    Unless you are developmentally disabled it is natural to do something faster/smoother/better after repetition.

  6. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    No, in my opinion everyone who zergs is choosing to zerg for their own reasons. That doesn't make zerging a natural evolution anymore than say joining a fraternity (or sorority) is a natural evolution of being a collage student.
    If evolution would mean getting better and faster at it... I think it is. If you like to do stuff below your skill level in your everyday life it's ok. But not everyone does.

    I think that was more the real sense (if you would read between the lines) while the example you gave to try to save your point... is totally not the same and I bet you know that. Nice try though.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  7. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    After you've run a quest once it's meta-gaming.

    Seriously . . . how many times can you flower-sniff a quest? How can it feel new and fresh if you've run it multiple times?
    This is entirely dependent on gameplay style.

    If you're the type of person who TRs, grinds to level 7/8, uses a stone of XP, grinds to 20 and then TRs again in a few days, yeah, you know all the quests (that you run) pretty quickly.

    If you play in the style I do -- run as many quests as possible each life, taking weeks or months to enjoy each one -- you don't remember nearly as much when you go through a quest the next time.

    And while I won't say that "zergers" aren't enjoying the game and should quit, I do notice *far* more griping, both here and in-game, from the constantly-in-a-rush types than the players who actually try to enjoy the content.

  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Your second quote seems to state that if a zerger is being introspective they should realize they should just quit.
    Yes, that was stated rather poorly. It should have been more on the order of "Some, with a bit of introspection" see that's the case. While others doing the same, see zerging as a satisfying endeavor for them.

    Really, the only reason I brought up introspection at all was from personal experience in not using it. Inertia can be a powerful force.

  9. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    This is entirely dependent on gameplay style.

    If you're the type of person who TRs, grinds to level 7/8, uses a stone of XP, grinds to 20 and then TRs again in a few days, yeah, you know all the quests (that you run) pretty quickly.

    If you play in the style I do -- run as many quests as possible each life, taking weeks or months to enjoy each one -- you don't remember nearly as much when you go through a quest the next time.

    And while I won't say that "zergers" aren't enjoying the game and should quit, I do notice *far* more griping, both here and in-game, from the constantly-in-a-rush types than the players who actually try to enjoy the content.
    You bring a nice point that i've witnessed during my 15 years+ playing MMOs. The people that play the most are also the most addicted but they don't take the time to realize they're killing the game at a faster rate than other who take their time. Yet, they still stick to the game for as long in term of months/years. An addiction is never a good thing since it keeps you coming back even to something you're totally fed up from without even understanding that they are. It just becomes what you do everyday hence you're just "used to it". Stopping a habit is for some one of the toughest thing ever. I've been there.

    But we can't generalize... some simply enjoys it for real. I think.
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  10. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    How many times can you run a friggin quest before it becomes second nature? Do you seriously flower-sniff quests you've run multiple times?

    Unless you are developmentally disabled it is natural to do something faster/smoother/better after repetition.
    There is a difference between getting better at something and racing to get it over with as fast as possible.

    So, yes I do get better. No, I have little problem slowing down to match the pace of others. I also couldn't tell you how much better I am as I don't look at, much less keep track of completion times nor do I often run the same quest with the same character more than once anyway.

  11. #691
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    After you've run a quest once it's meta-gaming.

    Seriously . . . how many times can you flower-sniff a quest? How can it feel new and fresh if you've run it multiple times?
    Part of the issue with this ongoing argument is that there are only two speeds; zerg and flower sniff.

    Some of can actually vary our speed based on content and party. Zerg for stuff that we don't like but have to do for whatever reason, Flower sniff for lesser known quests or running with less experienced folks, and a vast area of speed in between for a variety of reasons based on familiarity with the quest, party, difficulty, wow factor, and my own personal mood.

    The insistence that you are either zerging or flower sniffing is irritating to those of us who move with some degree of efficiency, but still take time to do opts, chat, buff, distribute loot, or whatever. xp/min is an important consideration, but it is not the *only* consideration. Or even the most important consideration. I don't care if the xp/min is horrible, or even if the party wipes if I had fun.

    Personally, my only complaint with zergs is that it has become a standard. Not everyone needs or wants to zerg, but almost everyone seems convinced they "have to" whether it's because of peer pressure, mindless lemming mentality, or simply not knowing any better. But it has become a defacto standard as the noobs all want to be like the vets and imitate them... even if they don't know why. A case in point, I ran Durks with a guy on my last life, and when we got done I mentioned I was moving on to whatever quest I was doing next. He said, "I'm farming this one, at least 12 more times". He was a first life toon. Why on earth would you farm low level quests that much, especially on a first life? Because that's what he's learned. The experts do it, so I need to as well. I pug a lot, and I've also run into a lot of new players who just run through everything. When I asked one why they don't slow down, I was told that "this is the way to do it, you must be a noob". He was a wizard with 27hp and he constantly ran off ahead of the rogue and died in the traps.

    Just my observation. YMMV.

  12. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    How many times can you run a friggin quest before it becomes second nature? Do you seriously flower-sniff quests you've run multiple times?

    Unless you are developmentally disabled it is natural to do something faster/smoother/better after repetition.
    My situation is probably not the norm, but my static group does "flower-sniff" every single quest. We currently have 3 static groups: lvl 25, 21 and 16. We all have additionally played multiple other characters in different situations. None of these characters are TRs but suffice to say we have done all the quests many times. Yet we kill all the mobs, do all the optionals, break all the boxes, find all the traps, and collect all the shinies. That's just how we roll - I guess it makes the quests more "D&D-ish" for us. Of course since we know them we still go pretty fast, but I've played with zergers and we definitely don't do that

    Maybe if we were all completionists and had repeated ad infinitum only a select number of available quests that had the best xp/min we would zerg. But the idea of grinding quests makes me kringe.

  13. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    If evolution would mean getting better and faster at it... I think it is. If you like to do stuff below your skill level in your everyday life it's ok. But not everyone does.

    I think that was more the real sense (if you would read between the lines) while the example you gave to try to save your point... is totally not the same and I bet you know that. Nice try though.
    I disagree, but hows this; zerging is as much a natural evolution to gaming as racing is to driving? Unless we consider zerging as simply not being slow and clumsy, because I've always understood it to mean as fast as effectively possible.

  14. #694
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    There is a difference between getting better at something and racing to get it over with as fast as possible.

    So, yes I do get better. No, I have little problem slowing down to match the pace of others. I also couldn't tell you how much better I am as I don't look at, much less keep track of completion times nor do I often run the same quest with the same character more than once anyway.
    I don't believe you.

    Do you even have a capped toon? Serious question.

  15. #695
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    How many times can you run a friggin quest before it becomes second nature? Do you seriously flower-sniff quests you've run multiple times?

    Unless you are developmentally disabled it is natural to do something faster/smoother/better after repetition.
    the only quests I actually flower sniff are brand new quests I haven't run yet and I usually bring my main soloing so I can have that same feeling I had when I logged onto DDO the very first time.

    all the other quests, I have run most of them dozens upon dozens of times. they are mostly second nature to me. I know the strengths and weaknesses of my character and I have the knowledge of the quests I run, so I can move at a steady pace while still maximizing my xp, which I like to do every time. I don't zerg quests, but I know them well enough to accomplish all of my desired goals in a timely manner. when I do get to parts of the quest that I know can be tricky or risk consuming too much unnecessary resources, even burdening my own hire if I have one, I take the time to strategize as needed.

    when it comes to groups, I adapt to them. doesn't matter if its stated in the lfm or not, I zerg if they zerg. I flower sniff if they like to do that and don't want me to spoil anything for them. what I am starting to get confused about is what people have for a definition of flower sniffing. I assume it means a walk in the park or a sunday driver taking their sweet time getting to the end of the quest. its very rare I come across groups like this. are people assuming that flower sniffing are non zerg groups if they like to stick together, not solo sides and use a little strategy instead of plowing through a quest because they are powerful enough to do it and they want the best possible xp/min? I would say almost all groups I join that are non zerg still complete in a decent amount of time as long as the group is at least decent enough to complete, in which case, I haven't been in a failed group in months. deaths, yes. but no fails.

    so, it is second nature for me now, but I zerg while using my head. when things do go south, I learn from my mistake after telling myself I knew better than that.

  16. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    How many times can you run a friggin quest before it becomes second nature? Do you seriously flower-sniff quests you've run multiple times?

    Unless you are developmentally disabled it is natural to do something faster/smoother/better after repetition.
    I think the funniest thing in this thread is the fact that everyone "talk" about how they play but we mostly haven't seen anyone's level of play. Like someone that "zerg" might not mean the same thing as when I "zerg". Or the speed of execution and efficiency could be totally different. It could be all over the place in term of real meaning to one or another.

    You can now skip the following part:

    Exemple: It's my last life as a caster (sorc) since i've done em all after that on the only character I play so I decided to solo as much and as fast as possible everything before i'm jumping to another game. Like I'm thinking how I can be faster and more efficient than usual for the next quest i'll run while i'm finishing one. Like when i'm pushing it, if I have to fight, I will do it while running backward till the end of the quest throwing spells.

    At level 14, I soloed the whole lordmarch plaza (which is super easy, I know) somewhere in between 22-23mins. My hireling did the counting. I even stopped to kill the rare scorpion and panther in Diplomatic Impunity + killing adds before boss and also having to wait for the salve to be off CD in Eye of Stone + 3 seers down witch must have taken a few minutes in the whole process. Now I don't know if it's forbidden to talk about skills... but I know i'm a solid player and based on my past "achievements" in MMOs (seriously... not just that example but pvp / end game pve overall) i've played and this is not just to brag and make a fool of myself (which is inevitable now).

    It's just a way to show how differently two players might think about being efficient. One won't even think that there are any ways to run faster (and think he's the best) while another does so much better effortlessly, while chatting on on a voice chat like it's just nothing. And then the clash happens, people get mixed up with people having such different mentalities like we can feel in such a little post as yours. Well I felt it.

    The best part would be that everyone tells me they do it as fast as that without trying. /facepalm. Not that I tried like it took more energy, was harder on my concentration or stressful... but I tried to be faster. But it was the exactly as effortless as usual and this is where the term "auto-pilot" takes all it senses for me.





    More important:


    All that to end up with : I've came to realize that there are a type of players that always speak like the game is nothing to them because they just have the right aptitudes to perform in such activities. There are also players scattered all over the field. There is NO way those discussions can be meaningful without being really honest or having witnessed what someone else can truely achieve (I could totally suck). So all these threads on BYOHs, hjeal barb, cleric who won't heal, using acid fog as a great way to dps in heroics, etc. are pretty much irrelevant without knowing how is the player behind the computer performing and thinking about always pushing his limits. Yes, I know it's a game.



    Oh and btw, how good are you, Troll? You "sound" good.

    That's as trollish as I can get. Well, my form of trolling I guess. No more.

    Edit: And it's not just about skills but also interrests and wanting to "evolve". This all might sound oh so stupid to some. Maybe everyone.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-24-2013 at 05:53 PM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  17. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I don't believe you.

    Do you even have a capped toon? Serious question.
    Level wise yes, haven't finished all the twists I want on any yet though.

    Though, I did overstate a bit as I was thinking heroic levels with that statement. Even so, I don't replay the epic stuff enough to have even though about it when I made that statement.

  18. #698
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    After you've run a quest once it's meta-gaming.

    Seriously . . . how many times can you flower-sniff a quest? How can it feel new and fresh if you've run it multiple times?
    Because the game is 7+ years old, and those of us who havent turned it into work farming the same 20 or so quests for high xp/min do not commit entire maps to memory with 100% accuracy. Theres also a huge gray area between metagaming and flower sniffing.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #699
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    The pace at which one can complete a quest does not always equate to the pace one enjoys the quest.

    Zerg, Flower-sniff and all points in between are not stages, but styles of play. Learning how to gauge the groups speed and determine if that is the pace you are willing to do is subjective to each individual person.

    The other thing to consider is not everyone picks only one pace and sticks with it. Some may zerg through quests for reasons such that vary from "I don't like this quest" to "Must have best XP per minute possible", but other quests they run slower because they like the quest and want to enjoy all of it or some other reason like it is new to them and they want to "See" the whole quest so that they can determine what is "worth" doing and what to skip.

    The only evolution that leads to zerging comes out of is the evolution of the players knowledge of a quest and the ability of both the character and player being able to handle the quest at the faster pace.

  20. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    The pace at which one can complete a quest does not always equate to the pace one enjoys the quest.

    Zerg, Flower-sniff and all points in between are not stages, but styles of play. Learning how to gauge the groups speed and determine if that is the pace you are willing to do is subjective to each individual person.

    The other thing to consider is not everyone picks only one pace and sticks with it. Some may zerg through quests for reasons such that vary from "I don't like this quest" to "Must have best XP per minute possible", but other quests they run slower because they like the quest and want to enjoy all of it or some other reason like it is new to them and they want to "See" the whole quest so that they can determine what is "worth" doing and what to skip.

    The only evolution that leads to zerging comes out of is the evolution of the players knowledge of a quest and the ability of both the character and player being able to handle the quest at the faster pace.
    If I knew how to properly write english, I would have added something along these lines to my last post, because this is how I think as well. Just didn't cover that part much, I was out of ink and it was getting exhaustive due to having to write 3 sentences + stupid exemples to get to my point.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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