Page 33 of 36 FirstFirst ... 232930313233343536 LastLast
Results 641 to 660 of 706
  1. #641
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    stuff...
    A Clonk is a multiclass build, thus wouldn't be counted in the numbers under the class name by DDO Oracle. The breakdown listed there from the numbers available do allow insight into popular multiclassing trends however.

    Even the first Cleric I ever made, a 28pt build, didn't need a party to get anything done outside of a raid. So I'm failing to see how a soloing Divine (Clr/Fvs/Druid) is an issue in your example. Even taking it to a personal level and looking at my own remaining divines... they still don't need anyone. Yet running with groups is something that can be fun. Healing groups was never the problem. Being able to provide healing without heavy resource usage and varying degrees of frustration become dependent upon who is present in the group.

    Epic levels flip the script for a lot of divines. Hyperinflated saves and increased spell resistance prove to be too much of an obstacle for the vast majority of players in that range. And though the enhancement pass allows some possibilities for restoring some of what was taken, the end result remains to be seen.
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-23-2013 at 12:46 PM. Reason: added a thought. coffee is brewing...
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  2. #642
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    People are also carrying on about players expecting clerics to ONLY heal and do nothing else. I dont see this behavior in game either - I only really hear about it on the forums.
    I've seen it quite a bit in my time playing the game. Groaning at divines using anything but healing spells in most situations is in fact a hallmark sign of a bad player.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  3. #643
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    So it has to be all or nothing, right? Either you're a "babysitter" who's "responsible for every little thing that happens", or you refuse to PUG as a healer at all.

    How about some middle ground -- heal the party in a reasonable manner with the expectation that others will respect your abilities and resources. Funny how the clerics in 95% of the groups I am in are able to do this and get along just fine with the rest of the team.

    Nah, that would make too much sense. We must have the extremes only.
    Most do actually. Then they encounter the complainers ruin their gaming experience and are left with a couple of choices. Some leave the game alltogether, some abandon divines and go to other classes, etc. Pug activity across all servers is down for divines. Yet there is no real shortage of the classes. Been that way for a bit now.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  4. #644
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    4,956

    Default

    I think we have strayed off point by quiet a bit.

    One there are Selfish Players - people that only look after themselves and everyone else is simply there to help promote them.

    Two we have the UBER solo player that can't play nice in a group. But wow, watch them work and crush any dungeon as long as others don't get in their way.

    Three the team player - the one that evaluates their abilities against the other members of the party and works to contribute in the best possible manner, in most cases following the PL goal/style for the quest and only going against the goal/style to save the completion

    Four the new player, not completely up on skills needed or what all the acronyms mean. Likely to get in over their head because they don't know better.

    Five the noob/know-it-all, the one that tells everyone there is only a certain way to do things and going against that will cause failure. Generally they know enough to appear to be right, but don't take well to be proven wrong and can even be defensive about it with such talk as "Well that won't work on EE"

    Six the bad player, worse than the noob/know-it-all they just can't grasp the concepts and ultimately don't have any desire to learn.


    Many are tolerant of the first four player types, but type five and six make some people sick or can even ruin a person's playtime.

    The best Groups, be they PuG, Guild or Channel groups are ones that everyone checks the ego at the door and they work together at the pace that the Group can handle, be that "Don't Blink", "Dungeon Crawl" or something in between.

    Nothing in the guidelines says we have to group with any one, but it does mention that we need to be courteous to each other. And sometimes the best courtesy is avoidance.

  5. #645
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Posts
    1,268

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    ... Then they encounter the complainers ruin their gaming experience and are left with a couple of choices. Some leave the game alltogether, some abandon divines and go to other classes, etc. Pug activity across all servers is down for divines. Yet there is no real shortage of the classes. Been that way for a bit now.
    THIS.

    I have 2 divines. The first is the first toon I ever made, He's in his second life and currently a 14 Cleric/1 Ftr with plans to hit a 19/1 split. I do get the odd eyebrow raise when I go in but the ftr level is all about the shield. He can stand in the middle of the dogpile and heal with his aura an deal some DPS + crowd control and if he's taking a beating then he can turtle up and play hate magnet for the other DPS to take out.

    Most of that run has been soloing to be honest, and here's why: He's fun to run for me but a couple of unfriendly groups with a Jimminey HerpaDerp or two in it and I am just so off on playing him. It's not my fault if you take up on your own and pull too much aggro to handle, I am not going to leave the group that got blocked in a doorway or chokepoint and is dealing with the trash you aggroed in your wake to run off to try and save you. I am not your wing man, I am not your healbot. I am the Cleric in the party and I will heal you through it if you work with me.

    Anyway it seems the HerpaDerp level is steadily on the rise so I just parked him again. He sat for about a year last time, I took him from 16 to 20 and back to 15 and I suspect he'll be parked a good long while again.

    Don't even ask about my FvS. He's sitting at 14 on his first life and I haven't played him in over a year.

    I like playing Divines and I like grouping. Unfortunately if you want to be pugging then these 2 likes just don't go well together because as wonderful as most pug players are, there are just enough Jimminey's to ruin a guys day. I don't play all that often anymore. Maybe an hour or two in a day on average so I certainly don't want to have some twit raging in my ear at me about how "heals suck" or the like.

    Instead I have been playing my AA 1/rngr/1wiz/18rogue bastardization build. I just hit 22 and I am having fun with him and best of all the only thing people really expect from him is traps (can do) and some dps (again can do).

    Are there divines out there? For sure.

    What they aren't doing much of is Pugging. I will basically dust mine off for guild runs if we feel we need the extra heals and perhaps for a pug I have been running with that is good and needs it but since I don't like soloing them that is about it.


  6. #646
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,154

    Default

    Well this was a fun topic, not sure what anyone else took from it, but today I learned that if you build self-sufficient, you never have to worry about what the other people in your group are doing.

  7. #647
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    2,436

    Default

    Or, when you play with people you like, you have the most fun. Or, just avoid terms like bigotry and enslavers aka don't be rude. Or, just communicate and do not expect others to think like you do. Or, be self sufficient in pugs and be whatever else in static groups where you can rely on others, even their flavor builds.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  8. #648
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Seminole, FL
    Posts
    10,639

    Default

    To get things more (or less) back on topic: I refer you to my sig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  9. #649
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,797

    Default

    tune in next week for the same argument under a different title.

  10. #650
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,785

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Most of that run has been soloing to be honest, and here's why: He's fun to run for me but a couple of unfriendly groups with a Jimminey HerpaDerp or two in it and I am just so off on playing him. It's not my fault if you take up on your own and pull too much aggro to handle, I am not going to leave the group that got blocked in a doorway or chokepoint and is dealing with the trash you aggroed in your wake to run off to try and save you. I am not your wing man, I am not your healbot. I am the Cleric in the party and I will heal you through it if you work with me.

    Anyway it seems the HerpaDerp level is steadily on the rise so I just parked him again. He sat for about a year last time, I took him from 16 to 20 and back to 15 and I suspect he'll be parked a good long while again.
    Here's what I don't understand. Maybe you can help me.

    There are all sorts of players with all sorts of characters who behave in selfish or obnoxious ways. We all have to deal with them. And the usual ways are pretty simple: ask them to stop what they're doing, and if they refuse, wait until the end of the quest and drop group, or recall and drop group immediately if the problem is really bad.

    While some people avoid PUGging in general because they don't want to deal with the bad apples, most of us who PUG just expect that this will happen sometimes and deal with it.

    Why is it that so many divines seem unable to take this balanced approach? Instead of just accepting that there's a few jerks out there, they decide they aren't going to PUG at all. This deprives both groups of benefiting from their services, and them from a fun experience and the good feeling of being appreciated.

    I also don't understand why it is that people who can express themselves so forcefully in a forum argument seem unable to just lay down the law in-game. I've been in some groups where the cleric will just flatly state that if X doesn't stop doing Y he won't be able to heal X any more, and X usually stops doing Y. But so many just sit there silently, brooding, and then draw grand conclusions about how horrible everyone is in PUGs. Why?

    Either way, the bottom line is the same: nobody has to heal if they don't want to, and people can and will get by without healers in most cases. It would be nice if both those wanting and those delivering heals would be a little less strident and a bit more accommodating.

  11. #651
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    4,956

    Default

    Qaliya I think your answer lies in the following.

    Of all the classes and roles in a group when things go upside-down many will point to the fact that they didn't receive enough healing. People don't like to get blamed for failure and especially when there was nothing they can do about it.

    The next part is the double-standard. Each person that pointed out a group where they felt the cleric/fvs was not healing enough, also neglected to mention how often the Fighter/Barb/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue tripped/stunned/SAP or Arcane worked Crowd Control to mitigate the incoming Damage. Or how the group failed to control the incoming agro in any way.

    Healing is a "re-active" ability, while all forms of Crowd Control/Damage Mitigation are "pro-active"

    On my divines I strive to do all I can to keep the party moving forward, on my other classes be they melee or arcane I strive hard to make the cleric so bored of watching the red bars that they utilize the other 2/3rds of their abilities.

    When was the last time you heard the divine in your group say "Wow, that was a fun quest and a great group, I had a blast"

    You can do that by taking an active role in reducing how much damage you take by using all the skills you have.

  12. #652
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,000

    Default

    Yeah fair points Chai- no arguments there.

    The only time a healer should just NOT heal someone when they need it is if that person has ****ed the healer off and they are on heal bans Sometimes its best to let the stupid die off.

  13. #653
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Here's what I don't understand. Maybe you can help me.

    There are all sorts of players with all sorts of characters who behave in selfish or obnoxious ways. We all have to deal with them. And the usual ways are pretty simple: ask them to stop what they're doing, and if they refuse, wait until the end of the quest and drop group, or recall and drop group immediately if the problem is really bad.

    While some people avoid PUGging in general because they don't want to deal with the bad apples, most of us who PUG just expect that this will happen sometimes and deal with it.

    Why is it that so many divines seem unable to take this balanced approach? Instead of just accepting that there's a few jerks out there, they decide they aren't going to PUG at all. This deprives both groups of benefiting from their services, and them from a fun experience and the good feeling of being appreciated.
    Ok on a random non-divine class I might run into a bad apple once every few days. If you run a divine you will run into a minimum of one per night. Pugging a divine brings out the players that are just going to bring blood pressure up, it's not worth the aggravation. I still pug, I just won't pug a divine.
    I also don't understand why it is that people who can express themselves so forcefully in a forum argument seem unable to just lay down the law in-game. I've been in some groups where the cleric will just flatly state that if X doesn't stop doing Y he won't be able to heal X any more, and X usually stops doing Y. But so many just sit there silently, brooding, and then draw grand conclusions about how horrible everyone is in PUGs. Why?
    You think we don't? Before I stopped pugging divines I use to know where all the lava was.

  14. #654
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Posts
    1,268

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Here's what I don't understand. Maybe you can help me.
    Sure thing, will do my best!


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Why is it that so many divines seem unable to take this balanced approach? Instead of just accepting that there's a few jerks out there, they decide they aren't going to PUG at all. This deprives both groups of benefiting from their services, and them from a fun experience and the good feeling of being appreciated.
    It’s not really that. Not at its core anyway. Look if I am on my Barb, or my Pale Master or my Rogue or my … anything but Divine. And a party has stuggled and barely pulled it off or wiped I have never heard much said about them. Hell if it was the Barb that managed to drop the redname then they will even tell him “nice save”.

    Heck I remember an at level hard shroud where it went a lot south at the end fight but we scraped together a victory with just my cleric a rogue and a ftr left standing. We lost 8 people in the first 30 seconds and there were probably 30 deaths in that final fight and I had been healing on bursts, scrolls and wands at the end. One of the toons, the one that died pretty much the most, said “Nice Heals”. I had taken so much **** lately that I went off on him. Turns out he meant it as a compliment but I had seen it typed exactly the same way SO many times and meant sarcastically that I assumed he was “another one of them”. Needless to say I apologized profusely when it was cleared up. That was also the last quest I ran for almost a year on that toon as I came to realize that it wasn’t being fun for me any more.

    It is only when I play my Divine that I hear blame being assigned to me for an issue. To compound the issue rarely will the party come to my defence either, in fact that only happened once and only after some party chat was going back and forth and I asked if anyone else thought it was my fault.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I also don't understand why it is that people who can express themselves so forcefully in a forum argument seem unable to just lay down the law in-game. I've been in some groups where the cleric will just flatly state that if X doesn't stop doing Y he won't be able to heal X any more, and X usually stops doing Y. But so many just sit there silently, brooding, and then draw grand conclusions about how horrible everyone is in PUGs. Why?
    I do, I mean check my signature for pete’s sake! When I am in a group I let them know that they have to hug a cleric for the healing aura, I outright state that I will stick with the main group. I let them know to call out for a heal if they need one as I sometimes lose track of a player in terms of how many hits they can take. When a particular toon won’t listen and is causing issue I will state in party chat and voice that I won’t spend my blue bar on these people any longer. I probably have to say at least once a day that my blue bar isn’t your red bar.

    It’s not that I can’t or don’t defend myself and my toon in the game. It’s not that I don’t try to explain to people how they can play different / better to make things run more smoothly. The point here is that playing ANY of my non-divine toons, EVEN my purpose built con gimped toon, I don’t have to.

    It get tired of "fighting the good fight" and I just want to have fun and play.

    I used to be insulted if someone popped off a hireling cleric when I was playing one in the group, now it’s a relief. On any other toon I can just jump in, have fun and play the game. So why play the Divine and deal with the hassle… the answer quickly becomes don’t


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Either way, the bottom line is the same: nobody has to heal if they don't want to, and people can and will get by without healers in most cases. It would be nice if both those wanting and those delivering heals would be a little less strident and a bit more accommodating.
    This I agree with, it would be nice. Alas it really isn’t how it is.
    Last edited by SiliconScout; 07-23-2013 at 02:42 PM.


  15. #655
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,785

    Default

    Good answers, thank you.

    Maybe I'm just naive but I think that maybe part of the answer is better education, both within the game and outside it. I am constantly amazed at how many players I come across who do a lousy job of managing their red bars not due to malice or selfishness, but just ignorance.

    I remember one time I was in a group with a melee who, even when we were standing still, would let his red bar sit at 20%. I asked him if he had any healing pots and he said he didn't. So I suggested that he get some and he said he would. Maybe he just said it to shut me up, but maybe it never occurred to him to take some responsibility for his own healing.

    Just seems like if more of us did that the results would be more productive and better for the game as a whole than having all the divines only run in private groups.

  16. #656
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Good answers, thank you.

    Maybe I'm just naive but I think that maybe part of the answer is better education, both within the game and outside it. I am constantly amazed at how many players I come across who do a lousy job of managing their red bars not due to malice or selfishness, but just ignorance.

    I remember one time I was in a group with a melee who, even when we were standing still, would let his red bar sit at 20%. I asked him if he had any healing pots and he said he didn't. So I suggested that he get some and he said he would. Maybe he just said it to shut me up, but maybe it never occurred to him to take some responsibility for his own healing.

    Just seems like if more of us did that the results would be more productive and better for the game as a whole than having all the divines only run in private groups.
    Yep. And until more players take the time to engage in the '4 letter phrase' self-sufficiency, the trend will continue. I picture most divine players taking a look at lfms in a way akin to peeking out of a bomb shelter.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  17. #657
    Founder
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    It is only when I play my Divine that I hear blame being assigned to me for an issue. To compound the issue rarely will the party come to my defence either, in fact that only happened once and only after some party chat was going back and forth and I asked if anyone else thought it was my fault.
    This^. And how will the person doing the blaming learn that he's wrong if no one except the person he's blaming corrects him? Either they agree with the blamer, or they're thinking its not their problem. Well I guess it is their problem if it results in divines not wanting to PUG!

  18. #658
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Yep. And until more players take the time to engage in the '4 letter phrase' self-sufficiency, the trend will continue. I picture most divine players taking a look at lfms in a way akin to peeking out of a bomb shelter.

  19. #659
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Posts
    1,517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I understand your point, but when you fight reality, you never win. The reality is that people will continue to join BYOH groups without bringing their own health. And the reality is that they will continue to cost ten percent. In the end, allowing a person to bring a hire will probably increase overall XP.

    While I'm sure this wasn't a devastating moment for the troll, it at least left somewhat of a bad taste, since it squelched the person and then made a post about it. If that person had popped a hire, would it be better or worse for troll? I don't know, I can't answer that. For me, personally, the problem has made me just stop pugging, but when I do, I allow a hire, since it almost always goes better.
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
    Thelanis - Llewndyn (FVS), Brickadoom Jenkins (barb/ ftr)
    Quote Originally Posted by jandhaer View Post
    Nerf Happiness

  20. #660
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    9,137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Isn´t that the purpose of a MMO game, to play together? If so, then it is indeed necessary to accept what others like as such and adapt in some measure if we want to play. Otherwise, the only thing left is solo play.
    Only if you feel it's about playing with everybody. If that's the case then, for me anyway, not playing at all would be a better option. I'm not enough of a social egalitarian to feel I have to log into a game just to hang out with those people I find annoying. Also, why is the only thing that is left solo play? You can't see a "find people you enjoy playing with and mostly just play with them" in there also?

Page 33 of 36 FirstFirst ... 232930313233343536 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload