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  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Source: http://ddoracle.com/Combined.html

    There are more Clerics in this game than any other class with the exception of Fighters and Multiclass builds.
    Doesn´t that just tell us that Clerics are not as often combined in a multi class build but are a bit more likely to stay pure than sorcerers, artificiers, bards, rogues and wizards?

  2. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Cleric is NOT a High Soloability Class at High Lvls!
    Cleric is top notch zerger and among the fastest soloers the more levels you get. As any DC caster, late bloomer after ~ 13 -15 ( depending on splash/pure class ), and twinked Demigod(dess) for Vale, Necro 4, Amrath, IQ.

    For EH , you don't even need any destiny waiting for you at 20, to get back to 25 fast.
    Get some gear, cojones and go actually try stuff on divine to get that thought " cleric is some kind of second hand support toon " out of your head
    Last edited by Encair; 07-23-2013 at 09:37 AM.

    Shahang (fvs caster), Bellezza (assassin), Wipekin (monkcher), Farida (air savant), Nezhat (melee) Ghallanda/Devourer

  3. #623
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    The one where arcanes do the lion's share of the damage.
    So heroic level on casual?

  4. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So heroic level on casual?
    I really don't get what are you saying man. Nothing comes close to Fireball, DBF, Otiluke's at level, no melee aoe, neither (in) famous Blade barrier.
    That is, zerging, orange skull loving, mob herding, toaster savant with some experience, not squishy fleshy newbie that stands back clicking one unmetaed spell at a time, and waits for melees to move first.

    Shahang (fvs caster), Bellezza (assassin), Wipekin (monkcher), Farida (air savant), Nezhat (melee) Ghallanda/Devourer

  5. #625
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    It's the other way around actually. Divine players who don't appreciate being made to heal only find other options. Pretty simple, when you remove the hyperbole and ignorance isn't it?
    Yeap, its pretty simple - that other option is called the sorc class. It gives them literally what they want - ability to kill at will and no obligation to heal anyone else but themselves.

    I dont recall anyone saying they should heal ONLY. The hyperbole is coming from the one trick pony divine club who refers to other classes as "hjeal meh barbarians" and such. What Im saying is they can kill all they want, but if they dont heal ALSO, they are playing half their class.

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    And come CitW and FoT it's the FavSouls who are suddenly expected to step up because there's a lack of Clerics!

    Practice makes perfect - And if you're NOT practicing your Healing Skills you're going to be Rusty!
    And in an End-Game Raid - Rusty is NOT what people need!

    So you want to say that FavSouls AREN'T Healers?
    You're even going so far as to say that Clerics shouldn't be considered Healers?

    And if no-one's playing Healers when the Devs bring out Uber End Game Raid {Epic Shroud a Possibility?} what are you going to do?

    Because that's where the Healers have gone - They've been pushed into Soloing by all the BYOH Groups who don't require their services.
    And while soloing they're NOT Learning how to heal a Party/Raid are they now?
    I can tell you from my personal experience that my level 21 healer cleric has not been pushed into Soloing for lack of requirement. I made a conscious decision not to PUG my cleric - I only play it with my static group. And in the level 25 version of my static group (we have 3 sets of characters) one of the other players has a healer cleric and the same mentality. Why do we not PUG our clerics? Because of the mentality of people like those in this thread who think that all clerics should primarily heal or they aren't doing their "job". But my cleric is a healer, why should that be a problem? Because players who depend on having a divine who is primarily a healer in their group want a Nanny. And although I built my cleric to heal, I don't want to stand around watching red bars for the whole quest. But what else can you do in that kind of environment? God forbid someone happens to die - even if there's nothing I could have done about it - there will be crying and finger pointing. No other type of character has to put up with that ****. If the Sorc or Barb or Monk doesn't mow down mobs fast enough or mobs escape from the Wiz's CC no one insults them or tries to make them responsible.

    Only divine healers are held responsible for things that frankly are usually the responsibility of the person who dies. YOU should know the limitations of your character. YOU should not get into a situation where you are going to get one-shot or overwhelmed, or you should have mitigation, etc. But no, people don't have to worry about any of that because they have a Nanny.

    In my opinion THIS is why more clerics don't PUG.

  7. #627
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Why is that most people playing clerics/fs go anon, do not pug, or stay with friends only? No offence, maybe they are tired of dealing with stupidity. Maybe they are tired of wasting money on mana pots (some of them do), scrolls, or other resources and are never repaid for them. Maybe, just maybe this is why people quit pugging on healers.
    My main is a Healer and I am anon. I would not be anon if the desire for Healers was not so strong - otherwise I would not get random tells or random invites to come and fulfill that role that they need and want.

    First, I LOVE being the Healer, dedicated or not. I enjoy it. I find enjoyment keeping my team alive, healthy, and overcoming all negative effects dealt to my team. Yes, I look at the group I am in as a TEAM. Not six individuals, but a group of six working together as a team to overcome the obstacle in front of us.

    The desire for teamwork is still alive and kicking, at least on my home server. People WANT Healers. In my experience, Healers (myself included) do not want to be the excuse for failure due to 'bad players' not working together. I cure Feeblemind but I cannot cure stupidity. I will do my best to watch over the group and add everything I can to complete the Quest. But I will NOT babysit some pugtard that will not work with the group as a whole. D&D at it's core is a group game. Teamwork is written into it's ruleset. It's not about being a soloist in a group of six or twelve. It is that person that finds him/herself in my backpack.

    I stick to Guild/Channel/Friends because they all play like I do, they play as a team.

    These BYOH groups are not as prevalent as some say, least on my home server. I have not seen one in well over a week. Players want the 'traditional' D&D experience/group.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  8. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Cleric is NOT a High Soloability Class at High Lvls!
    LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Monk, FavSoul and Wizard - The Three Classes that have outstripped Clerics by Lvl 25 ARE!
    An equally well-geared and well-played Wizard (or Sorc) certainly has some advantages over Cleric and Favored Soul, though I'm not sure their edge is huge enough to call it "outstripped".

    But how do you figure that FvS somehow has outstripped Cleric? Sure, they get a few more SP, but also have a massively restricted spell selection. Overall, they are very, very similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    what the class is best at - Healing Raids!
    LOL.

    I don't know what kind of builds you make or people you run with it, but your experience certainly does not match mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    So you want to say that FavSouls AREN'T Healers?
    You're even going so far as to say that Clerics shouldn't be considered Healers?
    Some people like to build and play healers, or do so because their guild needs one, or just to try it out, or whatever.

    The problem is when you want to automatically claim that every different build with Cleric or FvS is somehow auto-magically a "Healer" with an inherent obligation to babysit your red bar.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    And if no-one's playing Healers when the Devs bring out Uber End Game Raid {Epic Shroud a Possibility?} what are you going to do?
    Some people do play healers. And lots of people play self-healers. And lots of people can swap destinies or twists to get extra healing ability if needed. I'm not sure why you think caster or melee or ranged or whatever Clr/FvS are somehow going to be the end of the world because they are not "healers".

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Because that's where the Healers have gone - They've been pushed into Soloing by all the BYOH Groups who don't require their services.
    I'm not sure that makes any sense. Healers, in my experience, have a much more difficult time soloing than non-healer Clerics or FvS.

    It seems to me that Clerics and FvS of all stripes solo to avoid the "you-must-heal" bigots, and happily join BYOH groups.

  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Why do we not PUG our clerics? Because of the mentality of people like those in this thread who think that all clerics should primarily heal or they aren't doing their "job".
    ...
    In my opinion THIS is why more clerics don't PUG.
    And as I said before, if you don't want to heal others then it's good that you don't PUG, because if you aren't interested in doing so, there's no particularly compelling reason for anyone to want you in a group. They'd probably be better off with a hireling.

    The whiny-diviny contingent doesn't seem to grasp this concept -- they are complaining about being asked to do that which is the only reason why they are sought after in the first place.

    The real core of the issue, when you boil it down, is that most people just like to kill stuff and don't want to play a passive role. But there are some people who enjoy it. Those are the ones who should be nurtured and respected, not the divines who resent being asked to use their abilities for the benefit of the party.

    Of all the lives I've played, I think the most satisfying was my CC-based archmage wizard, who would rarely be above the middle of the pack kill-count wise but was instrumental in successful quests. I used to joke that I killed things by webbing and dancing them and pretending the melees of my party were hirelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    First, I LOVE being the Healer, dedicated or not. I enjoy it. I find enjoyment keeping my team alive, healthy, and overcoming all negative effects dealt to my team. Yes, I look at the group I am in as a TEAM. Not six individuals, but a group of six working together as a team to overcome the obstacle in front of us.
    Exactly.

    The next time I play a divine life, I will PUG as I do now with my melee. But I will also make clear that I am there to do my best and have fun and not be pushed around. There are many excellent healers on my server, people who can take care of a party and kill things and have a good time doing it. Those are the divines I believe are worth emulating, not the ones who are only out for themselves.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 07-23-2013 at 10:17 AM.

  10. #630
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    This got my attention.

    Synergy is the idea that things work in unison, that they complement each other, where one 'group' of classes will overcome the weakness of another 'group' of classes, so that when they work together they become stronger overall.

    In most traditional Trinity Games, the "healer" style class would be all but helpless in ability kill a mob and "melee" class would fill in that lacking functionality but be unable to heal themselves and thus when they work as a group they cover each others weaknesses and give direction to each others strengths.

    IE: The "healer" keeps the "Melee" healed, the "Melee" keeps the mobs off the healer and kills them in process, and thus they continue through dungeon crawl reaping the rewards as a team.

    The reality is, Synergy is about eliminating weakness and augmenting strengths of an interaction so that the unit as a whole becomes stronger.

    In simple terms:
    Synergy is when the Whole is more then the Sum of it parts.

    In DDO, there is none of that. The Divine and Arcane classes in DDO are simply not designed with weakness that need to be filled by any other classes in this game.

    So in DDO, What is really happening is that as you add people to the group you are simply throwing more raw DPS at the dungeon, you are not augmenting fusing class traits towards each other to augment the overall benefit of the group.

    In simple Terms:
    In DDO the Whole is Equal to (or less then) the Sum of it's parts.

    However, in DDO, The classes synergize very well within a single build, and that is where the real joy and freedom of this game comes from. While I can't speak for anyone else in this game. but I enjoy trying to find new and more fun ways to build self sufficent characters, sure, we all could make cookie cutters, and what have you, but as you said, where is the fun in that, the fun lies in being able to build a self sufficent build, to push the boundries, and to see what kind of synergy you can find this game, and lets be real here, yelling 'heajls me" is not synergy in any sens of the word, when the guy with the Barb icon is is raising the main tank mid raid, while the Monk is raising the cleric, that.. my friend is a group that has found Synergy like no game has seen before.

    Or is just such my observations. I return you to your petty bickering about how Divines are not Healers now.
    Synergy in DDO is a full party of ranged specced toons working together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  11. #631
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post

    Only divine healers are held responsible for things that frankly are usually the responsibility of the person who dies. YOU should know the limitations of your character. YOU should not get into a situation where you are going to get one-shot or overwhelmed, or you should have mitigation, etc. But no, people don't have to worry about any of that because they have a Nanny.
    Heavens forbid they back out of combat and drink some pots, cure there own curses, remove there own poison, get rid of there own blindness, remove there own diseases, or any number of things that ANY adventurer should be able to manage. And I'm not talking BYOH BS. Your right, that's being a Nanny. I don't mind being the dedicated Healer if that is what they need from me, but they should at least, the very least, have the basic questing essentials.

    Thats just basic dungeoneering common sense.

    I normally don't mind getting rid of those things because **** happens. But if a character cannot put forth even the most basic self preservation, why should I enforce what I think is bad common sense by continually removing them? That is SP I can have available when something really goes pear shaped.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  12. #632
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    My main is a Healer and I am anon. I would not be anon if the desire for Healers was not so strong - otherwise I would not get random tells or random invites to come and fulfill that role that they need and want.

    First, I LOVE being the Healer, dedicated or not. I enjoy it. I find enjoyment keeping my team alive, healthy, and overcoming all negative effects dealt to my team. Yes, I look at the group I am in as a TEAM. Not six individuals, but a group of six working together as a team to overcome the obstacle in front of us.

    The desire for teamwork is still alive and kicking, at least on my home server. People WANT Healers. In my experience, Healers (myself included) do not want to be the excuse for failure due to 'bad players' not working together. I cure Feeblemind but I cannot cure stupidity. I will do my best to watch over the group and add everything I can to complete the Quest. But I will NOT babysit some pugtard that will not work with the group as a whole. D&D at it's core is a group game. Teamwork is written into it's ruleset. It's not about being a soloist in a group of six or twelve. It is that person that finds him/herself in my backpack.

    I stick to Guild/Channel/Friends because they all play like I do, they play as a team.

    These BYOH groups are not as prevalent as some say, least on my home server. I have not seen one in well over a week. Players want the 'traditional' D&D experience/group.
    At times I also enjoy your version of team play. When I do join these groups it is normally guild or channel runs so we all know each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Over the years, I grew tired of these grouping. While fun at times, the box of chocolates has really gotten a bitter taste. I am not saying the population is that bad or stupid, but I cannot stand running into:

    The cleric that throws 2/3 of his mana on buffs before we hit the first mob. Then he will throw an enlarged, maximized, empowered, quickened heal on another that is missing 22 hp. Waste of a party slot as he does not know how to use mana properly and will likely pike for the next 15 minutes to a shrine.

    The ranger that shots at a mob and then decides to kite it all over the place. Melee are running all over the place trying to kill it while some LOTRO reject thinks he is doing great things for Shire.

    The barb that decides to frenzy, runs ahead into a room, agro everything, and starts sponging up all the healer mana. The whole time he is yelling “hjeals” while the sufficient players in the group know how to manage agro and are destroying all the agro while that barb is in bad shape as the cleric is out of mana and he is now a soul stone.

    And my favorite is the Drow Sorc. Walks into a quest throwing fireballs and firewalls and then jusps around the place yelling “HJEALS”. Cannot manage agro, and then decides to be a soulstone for the rest of the quest after draining the healer of any mana that he might have had. The real kicker is when you see these guys cast false life. A waster spell slot, and really, how much hp will it really help?

    This is the reason I play as I do now. I understand that not everyone is this bad, but you will run into one or more of these in most “ideal” pugs. Sure you may have fun running in and saving the day, but it is something that I grew out of awhile back. I should note that I have nothing against people that play like this. I just don’t want them in my party, and I don’t want them coming here saying the game is too hard when they do not even understand how the game mechanics work.
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  13. #633
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I really should make a buff-bot, and then jump into zerg groups, and do nothing but buff people. That would be hysterical.

    I'd be squelched all over the place, but that just might be worth it...
    I do not think they would notice.

    Seriously.. maybe sometimes, but usually the quests go easily enough, and there always seems to be that one or two guys out in front that kills everything.... regardless of how much the people in back are trying... or wish to try....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  14. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Heavens forbid they back out of combat and drink some pots, cure there own curses, remove there own poison, get rid of there own blindness, remove there own diseases, or any number of things that ANY adventurer should be able to manage. And I'm not talking BYOH BS. Your right, that's being a Nanny. I don't mind being the dedicated Healer if that is what they need from me, but they should at least, the very least, have the basic questing essentials.

    Thats just basic dungeoneering common sense.

    I normally don't mind getting rid of those things because **** happens. But if a character cannot put forth even the most basic self preservation, why should I enforce what I think is bad common sense by continually removing them? That is SP I can have available when something really goes pear shaped.
    Exactly, but once some players realize they have what they consider a babysitter in the group, that healer becomes responsible for every little thing that happens to them. And then you have this type of response from someone who is so wrapped up in their "you obviously just don't want to heal unless you heal my way" position that they simply ignore what I actually wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    And as I said before, if you don't want to heal others then it's good that you don't PUG
    And apparently ignore what you wrote also since they quote your love of healing in a Team but didn't notice that you said that you don't PUG either.
    Last edited by HAL; 07-23-2013 at 10:39 AM.

  15. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Exactly, but once some players realize they have what they consider a babysitter in the group, that healer becomes responsible for every little thing that happens to them.
    So it has to be all or nothing, right? Either you're a "babysitter" who's "responsible for every little thing that happens", or you refuse to PUG as a healer at all.

    How about some middle ground -- heal the party in a reasonable manner with the expectation that others will respect your abilities and resources. Funny how the clerics in 95% of the groups I am in are able to do this and get along just fine with the rest of the team.

    Nah, that would make too much sense. We must have the extremes only.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 07-23-2013 at 10:46 AM.

  16. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeap, its pretty simple - that other option is called the sorc class. It gives them literally what they want - ability to kill at will and no obligation to heal anyone else but themselves.

    I dont recall anyone saying they should heal ONLY. The hyperbole is coming from the one trick pony divine club who refers to other classes as "hjeal meh barbarians" and such. What Im saying is they can kill all they want, but if they dont heal ALSO, they are playing half their class.
    Lets be real here...no class ever has an "obligation" to heal anyone at all. It is common courtesy to let the leader know if you join his party that you are a cleric or FVS who does not heal.

    Does every rogue do traps? Does every ranger use a bow?

    Now Im all for a time consuming discussion while I lurk at work but you guys are getting a bit full of yourselves here.

    And if you dont think a FVS or Cleric can lay down good solid damage and kill stuff you need to adjust your dial.

  17. #637
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Lets be real here...no class ever has an "obligation" to heal anyone at all. It is common courtesy to let the leader know if you join his party that you are a cleric or FVS who does not heal.
    Or to not join the party if you know they are looking for a healer and you dont play a divine that heals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Does every rogue do traps? Does every ranger use a bow?
    They do if they play the full potential of their class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Now Im all for a time consuming discussion while I lurk at work but you guys are getting a bit full of yourselves here.

    And if you dont think a FVS or Cleric can lay down good solid damage and kill stuff you need to adjust your dial.
    My comparison was with a sorc, because thats the class someone should roll if their view is so extreme that they will not heal anyone and only want to DPS.

  18. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Doesn´t that just tell us that Clerics are not as often combined in a multi class build but are a bit more likely to stay pure than sorcerers, artificiers, bards, rogues and wizards?
    Not really. Those numbers account for all multiclasses. Not simply splashed clerics.
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  19. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeap, its pretty simple - that other option is called the sorc class. It gives them literally what they want - ability to kill at will and no obligation to heal anyone else but themselves.

    I dont recall anyone saying they should heal ONLY. The hyperbole is coming from the one trick pony divine club who refers to other classes as "hjeal meh barbarians" and such. What Im saying is they can kill all they want, but if they dont heal ALSO, they are playing half their class.
    Who says they aren't, Chai? I've met 2 divines since 08' that refuse to heal anyone. 2.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  20. #640
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Who says they aren't, Chai? I've met 2 divines since 08' that refuse to heal anyone. 2.
    People are also carrying on about players expecting clerics to ONLY heal and do nothing else. I dont see this behavior in game either - I only really hear about it on the forums.

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