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  1. #601
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The problem with this is that, for many, being your own game developer isn't what they are signing on for. Thus making the game that much more niche.
    Well, Character Build, for me at least, was always a big part of playing DnD. I mean, how many of who played DnD took great pride in what we made, how we made it, the way we built our toon to fit our play style, personality, and feel, and DDO, while limited, does give that feel of being able to make something "you" in this game.

    What we do with that is of course up to us. Yes, DDO is a niche game, it pretty much always was, and always will be, beyond that, Nothing discussed in this topic will change that on any level.

    Game On!

  2. #602
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    it doesn't matter if their is a short supply of healers, not willing to pug or going anon. players are adapting without them. there will always be some players who feel the need to have specific cleric/fvs to heal parties, but more and more realize other classes can heal and be a team player and theres only a small per cent of quests where experienced players actually know they need that role filled. if this is what Turbine had in mind with its versatility and what the clerics/fvs had in mind by not wanting to be a healer in a party than we are getting what we wanted. players are learning to play without divine healing.
    This is my ultimate point. Years ago the game was not as easy for soloing or short manning for many different reasons. Now that even the casuals are able to solo, short man or simply grab a hire, people have learned to not need or have a dedicated healer in the group.

    I am not saying that healers are not needed, but to some it is much easier to get a group of sufficient players and knock a quest out while the group of people that need a crutch stand around and wait for their ideal party. No thanks.

    I have no agenda and will not bash people that want to wait for their ideal group, but I’ll be damned if they come here and start making demands and getting upset because “us elitist zergers” refuse to slow down and follow by their idea of D&D tradition.
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  3. #603
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    So... where do we draw the line with bad players?
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  4. #604
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I especially love the circular argument that nobody should expect divines to heal because this is why people don't like to play them and groups can't find healers. Uh, if the divine isn't going to heal the party, then nobody particularly needs them in the first place.
    It's the other way around actually. Divine players who don't appreciate being made to heal only find other options. Pretty simple, when you remove the hyperbole and ignorance isn't it?
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  5. #605
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I don't know that most clerics are anon, not pugging, or friends only. Then again, if they are hiding from the general public, I suppose I wouldn't. That seems to make this claim rather convenient, since there is no way to disprove it. I'm not saying whether it is true or false, just that it is irrelevant to me. If it is true, there must be a godawful number divines out there, judging by the number of divine strangers I have pugged with.
    Source: http://ddoracle.com/Combined.html


    All Worlds Combined. Stats for the entire active playing population of DDO.
    Characters by Class
    Class Count
    Fighter 51867
    Cleric 49224
    Wizard 48281
    Rogue 44107
    Sorcerer 37578
    Monk 36730
    Barbarian 34106
    Paladin 33856
    Ranger 32753
    Artificer 30186
    Favored Soul 26837
    Bard 21744
    Druid 17012
    Multiclass 139252
    There are more Clerics in this game than any other class with the exception of Fighters and Multiclass builds.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  6. #606
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    So... where do we draw the line with bad players?
    I always think of them as ones that are not sufficient and they join BYOH lfm’s and zergers that join sniffer LFM’s.

    You can be as good or bad as you like, just don’t bring something to a party unless you are going to do what is asked.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  7. #607
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Source: http://ddoracle.com/Combined.html





    There are more Clerics in this game than any other class with the exception of Fighters and Multiclass builds.
    unless there is a way I don't see to get current numbers, that is a few months old. I don't know how much difference it actually makes. an extra hundred for fighters, 200 less for sorcerers or maybe its still in the same ballpark.

    does that account for active as in logged in recently on that class? because I have a rogue, paladin, cleric, 2 fighters and a fvs bank toons I constantly log in on. the rogue, cleric and fvs are between levels 12-15 that I used to play but wasn't interested in playing them anymore. the others I never played and just created for the sole purpose of holding stuff. im sure there are a lot of other people the same way.

  8. #608
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    unless there is a way I don't see to get current numbers, that is a few months old. I don't know how much difference it actually makes. an extra hundred for fighters, 200 less for sorcerers or maybe its still in the same ballpark.

    does that account for active as in logged in recently on that class? because I have a rogue, paladin, cleric, 2 fighters and a fvs bank toons I constantly log in on. the rogue, cleric and fvs are between levels 12-15 that I used to play but wasn't interested in playing them anymore. the others I never played and just created for the sole purpose of holding stuff. im sure there are a lot of other people the same way.
    It only counts as what it's stated as. I have 16 active toons, and another 6 bank characters. I get what you are saying, but I don't believe that with a number that high compared to other classes one can account for all of them as bank toons. It'd be a stretch I think to even try to dismiss more than 3-5% of that number to anything created for holding bank items.

    So one should question why it is out a number of characters that is that high why there are pug groups sitting sometimes for hours looking for one?

    Being a player who at one time ran 8 different divine builds I've come to accept a simple truth. The aggravation factor associated with playing a divine does not equal it's rewards. I can also think of quite a few players I've encountered or gamed with that straight out abandoned the class for the same reasons I cut down to running only two divines. Literally watching players pack up their bags and go elsewhere (other games or other classes withing this one) tells it's own story.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  9. #609
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    I suppose a good question would be what percentage of all active toons are mules? We could take a sampling, but I am sure individual responses will range from 0% to 95%, depending on the player. A fun numbers game, but realistically meaningless.

    What I mean is that my experience in game in no way matches the squawking in forum, so I must conclude that forum soapboxes of this nature are more an exercise in rhetoric than an actual model of the game. Not to say I don't like all this nonsense; on the contrary, it helps me with my Critical Thinking homework by providing a real-life case study.
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  10. #610
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I suppose a good question would be what percentage of all active toons are mules? We could take a sampling, but I am sure individual responses will range from 0% to 95%, depending on the player. A fun numbers game, but realistically meaningless.

    What I mean is that my experience in game in no way matches the squawking in forum, so I must conclude that forum soapboxes of this nature are more an exercise in rhetoric than an actual model of the game. Not to say I don't like all this nonsense; on the contrary, it helps me with my Critical Thinking homework by providing a real-life case study.
    It's okay.

    People like you said the exact same thing when there were plenty of available and accessible divines for pug groups a few years ago. Considering your investment in this thread, I'd expect no less...

    Still, the numbers are right there in front of your face. And if you were correct in that the nature of debate on this forum alludes to misrepresentation of the actual state of events - there would be no debate whatsoever regarding the what or why of divine players. No one would care what they did or how many there were. LFM's wouldn't sit for hours in some cases. There would be no BYOH debate.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  11. #611
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Source: http://ddoracle.com/Combined.html





    There are more Clerics in this game than any other class with the exception of Fighters and Multiclass builds.
    Yes I will repeat that DDOracle hasn't been updated since the MyDDO Fiasco {Unlike YourDDO which seems to still be going}.
    BUT

    http://ddoracle.com/Combined.html

    Why NOT Quote the more pertinent piece of information?

    i.e.

    Level 1 By Class
    Class # of Chars
    Fig 2120
    Rog 1471
    Brb 1165
    Cle 996
    Ran 805
    Wiz 798
    Pal 710
    Brd 617
    Sor 602
    Mnk 398
    Art 306
    Dru 253
    Fvs 221

    Cleric 4th

    Level 4 By Class
    Class # of Chars
    Fig 6474
    Rog 4977
    Cle 4758
    Wiz 4607
    Brb 4397
    Ran 4106
    Pal 4081
    Mnk 3597
    Sor 3568
    Brd 2836
    Art 2595
    Fvs 2263
    Dru 1968

    Cleric 3rd

    Level 12 By Class
    Class # of Chars
    Cle 1634
    Rog 1524
    Wiz 1483
    Fig 1446
    Sor 1316
    Mnk 1256
    Art 1140
    Pal 1056
    Ran 986
    Brb 942
    Fvs 858
    Brd 691
    Dru 502

    Cleric 1st

    Level 20 By Class
    Class # of Chars
    Cle 5008
    Wiz 5007
    Fvs 4856
    Sor 4387
    Fig 3734
    Mnk 3586
    Brb 2869
    Rog 2568
    Ran 2411
    Art 2261
    Pal 2260
    Brd 2150
    Dru 525

    Cleric STILL 1st - Only 1 Player ahead of Wizards though!

    Level 25 By Class
    Class # of Chars
    Mnk 1940
    Fvs 1728
    Wiz 1685
    Cle 1043
    Sor 1000
    Art 993
    Fig 951
    Rog 938
    Brb 841
    Pal 665
    Ran 539
    Brd 441
    Dru 395

    Wow - Big Difference - As Cleric drops to 4th - Only barely over HALF as many Lvl 25 Clerics as Lvl 25 Monks!


    From this I'd have to say that MOST people are putting their Clerics away around Lvl 10-24
    OR
    Perhaps they find it harder to level up Clerics than other classes and so their just not quite there yet?


    Also - DDOracle states here: http://ddoracle.com/Faq.html - An active character as reported by DDO, someone who has been played in the last 6 months.

    I'm going to have to repeat this bit - Sorry:

    "THE LAST SIX MONTHS!"

    That's NOT Active!

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    It's okay.

    People like you said the exact same thing when there were plenty of available and accessible divines for pug groups a few years ago. Considering your investment in this thread, I'd expect no less...

    Still, the numbers are right there in front of your face. And if you were correct in that the nature of debate on this forum alludes to misrepresentation of the actual state of events - there would be no debate whatsoever regarding the what or why of divine players. No one would care what they did or how many there were. LFM's wouldn't sit for hours in some cases. There would be no BYOH debate.
    From what I saw in this thread, there may not have been any debate re the what or why of divine players if one hadn't hijacked this thread to air 'Divines' grievances'. Then you and Hal joined in and did an impressive job of tag-teaming Qaliya, who managed to hold her/his own pretty well. It might not hurt to go back over this thread to see whether the argument you were having was the one you thought you were having.
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  13. #613
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    IDK about others, but yes, if cleric is only healing, he is not contributing enough, IMO.
    Yes, a healbot in a good party is just a little better than a piker.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  14. #614
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    From what I saw in this thread, there may not have been any debate re the what or why of divine players if one hadn't hijacked this thread to air 'Divines' grievances'. Then you and Hal joined in and did an impressive job of tag-teaming Qaliya, who managed to hold her/his own pretty well. It might not hurt to go back over this thread to see whether the argument you were having was the one you thought you were having.
    Actually I posted long before either of you showed up and brought that argument to the table. And I don't take kindly to the mentality of blaming divines for poor play.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  15. #615
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    ...
    Wow - Big Difference - As Cleric drops to 4th - Only barely over HALF as many Lvl 25 Clerics as Lvl 25 Monks!


    From this I'd have to say that MOST people are putting their Clerics away around Lvl 10-24
    OR
    Perhaps they find it harder to level up Clerics than other classes and so their just not quite there yet?


    Also - DDOracle states here: http://ddoracle.com/Faq.html - An active character as reported by DDO, someone who has been played in the last 6 months.

    I'm going to have to repeat this bit - Sorry:

    "THE LAST SIX MONTHS!"

    That's NOT Active!

    Your analogy supports my point. Regardless of using the same source and interpreting the data differently by using a level breakdown. I used total number of characters across all servers. Either way however, it's clear to see that many Clerics go out of activity by level 10. And there are a few reasons for that.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  16. #616
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    What game do you play?
    The one where arcanes do the lion's share of the damage.

  17. #617
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    I really should make a buff-bot, and then jump into zerg groups, and do nothing but buff people. That would be hysterical.

    I'd be squelched all over the place, but that just might be worth it...

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Well, Character Build, for me at least, was always a big part of playing DnD. I mean, how many of who played DnD took great pride in what we made, how we made it, the way we built our toon to fit our play style, personality, and feel, and DDO, while limited, does give that feel of being able to make something "you" in this game.

    What we do with that is of course up to us. Yes, DDO is a niche game, it pretty much always was, and always will be, beyond that, Nothing discussed in this topic will change that on any level.

    Game On!
    I see a bit of a problem in here. It's the individualism, not only in the way people build their characters but also the way they play it. I'm not against creativity, far from it actually since this is pretty much the best part of DDO but some people pushes it too far in term of flavor vs usefulness. I'm saying this because this thread is about grouping with people that doesn't pull their weight.

    What I mean by this is it's ok to have, let's say, an agressive playstyle but it ain't gonna work everytime, with any build, any groups... etc. What I have witnessed in DDO are people sticking to ONE way of play, which is the way they play when they solo. Even in groups. There's been talk about synergy but I never see any of this in pugs. Instead of watching and learning other's playstyle and adapting to it, people mostly stick to how they ALWAYS do it. It's not bad in a way, but it's not efficient when it comes to grouping. Neither it is fun because it's free for all and may the fastest zerger win.

    No one seems to care about how the group is playing, instead they just rush in and do their things. It's kind of fine when your a powerhouse and can just take on anything solo, but it is not fun for the other in your group all the time, neither for the one doing it (except perhaps the ego).

    But it's all good because all his up to us, right? We have the right to play however we want in any cases. Why care about the other when pugging, their just NPCs to most anyway. Here is the mistake. When you play/join a pug group full of strangers, it still has to be as fun as possible for everyone. But I rarely, if not ever, witness players taking the time to analyze the situation before doing their things. The result is an evidence and we can see it everyday.

    It starts with respect of what the LFM states when you join it, but once you're in the group there are still a little bit of effort to be made when you pug. And if pugging the right way by trying to maximize everyone's fun and efficience is too much to ask then don't do it because you will rather break someone's fun which, while some may not care, we have no right to do so. You might also just not be in the right group. Like if you die 5 times in a zerg/farm run... please leave you just don't belong there.

    If making small sacrifices is too much (maybe even losing FIVE minutes omg), then create your own LFM, play with friends or solo.

    There are unwritten laws in life...
    This is not directly directed to the quote, just a waking up thought.

    Edit: A good exemple for the adapting part could be a monk rushing foward trying to kill stuff one by one instead of bringing everything together so casters can aoe nuke it down.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-23-2013 at 08:18 AM.
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  19. #619
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Your analogy supports my point. Regardless of using the same source and interpreting the data differently by using a level breakdown. I used total number of characters across all servers. Either way however, it's clear to see that many Clerics go out of activity by level 10. And there are a few reasons for that.
    Considering Clerics aren't #1 on the List TILL Lvl 12 I think you're Lvl 10 is Low in the extreme.

    Hey I did say between Lvl 10 and 24 myself but I'd say it's pretty obvious that it's more the High Teens and Early 20s that are the issues for Clerics!

    And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that from my own experiences {and yes I do tend to play PnP style Melee Battle Clerics and High Charisma Turn Based Builds}:

    Healing Groups is most definitely NOT the problem!

    The Problem is when those groups aren't available because everyone's doing 5 or 6 {if that many} quests to cap then simply Raiding on Bypasses Day in Day Out!
    Cleric is NOT a High Soloability Class at High Lvls!

    Monk, FavSoul and Wizard - The Three Classes that have outstripped Clerics by Lvl 25 ARE!


    P.S. Clonks
    One - Do Clonks even count as Clerics on that list OR as a Multiclass Build?
    Two - I've never had a single issue with a Clonk in-game {don't see them as often as you'd think from these forums though}.


    I'd say that your Lvl 20 Clerics are simply NOT earning XP because they're being used to FARM Shroud, VoN, ADQ for people's other characters!
    Doing what the class is best at - Healing Raids!

    And come CitW and FoT it's the FavSouls who are suddenly expected to step up because there's a lack of Clerics!


    Practice makes perfect - And if you're NOT practicing your Healing Skills you're going to be Rusty!
    And in an End-Game Raid - Rusty is NOT what people need!

    So you want to say that FavSouls AREN'T Healers?
    You're even going so far as to say that Clerics shouldn't be considered Healers?

    And if no-one's playing Healers when the Devs bring out Uber End Game Raid {Epic Shroud a Possibility?} what are you going to do?

    Because that's where the Healers have gone - They've been pushed into Soloing by all the BYOH Groups who don't require their services.
    And while soloing they're NOT Learning how to heal a Party/Raid are they now?

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    You seem to feel we are all in some way obligated to put up with each other as to do otherwise is unacceptable. While we all have the right to play any way we like, there is nothing that prevents us from avoiding those who play in a way we don't like. If you think doing so makes me a bad person, oh well.
    Isn´t that the purpose of a MMO game, to play together? If so, then it is indeed necessary to accept what others like as such and adapt in some measure if we want to play. Otherwise, the only thing left is solo play.

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