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  1. #581
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    The different classes actually have pretty good synergy.
    This got my attention.

    Synergy is the idea that things work in unison, that they complement each other, where one 'group' of classes will overcome the weakness of another 'group' of classes, so that when they work together they become stronger overall.

    In most traditional Trinity Games, the "healer" style class would be all but helpless in ability kill a mob and "melee" class would fill in that lacking functionality but be unable to heal themselves and thus when they work as a group they cover each others weaknesses and give direction to each others strengths.

    IE: The "healer" keeps the "Melee" healed, the "Melee" keeps the mobs off the healer and kills them in process, and thus they continue through dungeon crawl reaping the rewards as a team.

    The reality is, Synergy is about eliminating weakness and augmenting strengths of an interaction so that the unit as a whole becomes stronger.

    In simple terms:
    Synergy is when the Whole is more then the Sum of it parts.

    In DDO, there is none of that. The Divine and Arcane classes in DDO are simply not designed with weakness that need to be filled by any other classes in this game.

    So in DDO, What is really happening is that as you add people to the group you are simply throwing more raw DPS at the dungeon, you are not augmenting fusing class traits towards each other to augment the overall benefit of the group.

    In simple Terms:
    In DDO the Whole is Equal to (or less then) the Sum of it's parts.

    However, in DDO, The classes synergize very well within a single build, and that is where the real joy and freedom of this game comes from. While I can't speak for anyone else in this game. but I enjoy trying to find new and more fun ways to build self sufficent characters, sure, we all could make cookie cutters, and what have you, but as you said, where is the fun in that, the fun lies in being able to build a self sufficent build, to push the boundries, and to see what kind of synergy you can find this game, and lets be real here, yelling 'heajls me" is not synergy in any sens of the word, when the guy with the Barb icon is is raising the main tank mid raid, while the Monk is raising the cleric, that.. my friend is a group that has found Synergy like no game has seen before.

    Or is just such my observations. I return you to your petty bickering about how Divines are not Healers now.

  2. #582
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    so, you have an expectation for how players should perform in a group. waving a eternal cure minor wounds wand and casting buffs doing nothing else isn't enough contribution for a group. would you say the same about a divine who only heals parties and doesn't do anything else? the level of contribution that a party member provides can be seen differently from one player to another. this is where elitism gets thrown around a lot and makes for good forum stories to read.
    IDK about others, but yes, if cleric is only healing, he is not contributing enough, IMO.

  3. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Nowhere does it state that every Divine should heal. Just as nowhere does it state that every Fighter should DPS over Tanking or vice versa.

    You and Gremmlynn are trying to make a point that it is acceptable to assume that any divine in your party is going to heal because that is their role and that if a Divine is not a primary healer they should warn the party. There is no DDO material which states that it is their role - it is a false assumption.
    What you may or may not find acceptable is of little interest to me. If someone plays in a manner that I don't like, I don't care if it's in a manner you or anyone else finds acceptable. I simply wont play with them again.

    You seem to feel we are all in some way obligated to put up with each other as to do otherwise is unacceptable. While we all have the right to play any way we like, there is nothing that prevents us from avoiding those who play in a way we don't like. If you think doing so makes me a bad person, oh well.

  4. #584
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    “Role:
    The cleric serves as a typical group’s primary healer, diviner, and defensive specialist. He can hold his own in a fight but usually isn’t well served by charging to the front of combat. The cleric’s domains and spell selection can greatly affect his role as well” (Dungeons & Dragons Players' Handbook: Core Rulebook I, v. 3.5, 2003).

    References
    Dungeons & Dragons Players' Handbook: Core Rulebook I, v. 3.5. (2003, July). Retrieved from Scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/75066202/C...ndbook#page=31

    I can't imagine why anyone would expect a cleric to heal.
    Why is that most people playing clerics/fs go anon, do not pug, or stay with friends only? No offence, maybe they are tired of dealing with stupidity. Maybe they are tired of wasting money on mana pots (some of them do), scrolls, or other resources and are never repaid for them. Maybe, just maybe this is why people quit pugging on healers.

    Over the years, vets have learned what quest to farm for getting xp, what the best class split for leveling is, and many other things that allow them to tr without much of a problem. In doing so, people realize that they need to build for sufficiency as there might not always be a healer willing to heal (slow servers and LFM’s only add to this problem).

    All the new kids that join the game may expect the old D&D game, but that was gone years ago. With the store and so many other ways for a person to get ahead and not need a dedicated healer these people are in for a rude awakening.
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  5. #585
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    What you may or may not find acceptable is of little interest to me. If someone plays in a manner that I don't like, I don't care if it's in a manner you or anyone else finds acceptable. I simply wont play with them again.

    You seem to feel we are all in some way obligated to put up with each other as to do otherwise is unacceptable. While we all have the right to play any way we like, there is nothing that prevents us from avoiding those who play in a way we don't like. If you think doing so makes me a bad person, oh well.
    If 90% of the LFM’s are saying BYOH, what do you think people are looking for? If there is that big of an interest in having these dedicated healer groups, why am I not seeing more LFM’s for them? You can say that people are too timid to put up an LFM, but if they don’t step and do something about it, then it must not bother them enough.

    If these people leave the game because of it, oh well. If you do not want to conform to what the majority is doing and are too lazy to take initiative, bye.

    I really respect you, Mobrien (sp), and Talon. I do not have anywhere near the play style as you, but you have fun at least in the way that you do. If others would do this and quit trying to nerf or put an agenda on everyone else, we would have a better game.
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  6. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Why is that most people playing clerics/fs go anon, do not pug, or stay with friends only? No offence, maybe they are tired of dealing with stupidity. Maybe they are tired of wasting money on mana pots (some of them do), scrolls, or other resources and are never repaid for them. Maybe, just maybe this is why people quit pugging on healers.

    Over the years, vets have learned what quest to farm for getting xp, what the best class split for leveling is, and many other things that allow them to tr without much of a problem. In doing so, people realize that they need to build for sufficiency as there might not always be a healer willing to heal (slow servers and LFM’s only add to this problem).

    All the new kids that join the game may expect the old D&D game, but that was gone years ago. With the store and so many other ways for a person to get ahead and not need a dedicated healer these people are in for a rude awakening.
    I don't know that most clerics are anon, not pugging, or friends only. Then again, if they are hiding from the general public, I suppose I wouldn't. That seems to make this claim rather convenient, since there is no way to disprove it. I'm not saying whether it is true or false, just that it is irrelevant to me. If it is true, there must be a godawful number divines out there, judging by the number of divine strangers I have pugged with.
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  7. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Party Leader: “You’re a PM. Would you finger that orange-named over there?”

    Arcane: “Sorry, not spec-ed for necromancy spells.”

    Party Leader (after a long pause): “Sorry, I didn’t quite get that. Could you say it again?”

    Arcane: “Not spec-ed for Necro. I’m spec-ed for buffing.”

    Party Leader: “But…uh…you’re a Pale Master.”

    Arcane: “HOW DARE YOU IMPOSE YOUR NEEDS ON MY PLAYSTYLE!!! NOOB!!! BEING SELF-SUFFICIENT MEANS HAVING YOUR OWN INSTAKILLS!!! FRICKIN’ NOOB!!!”
    Pretty much sums up the "whiney diviny" in a nutshell.

    Don't even have to go to this extreme. Can you imagine the reaction of a party to an arcane who was extensively buffing himself but refused to do it for anyone else? After all, there's no such thing as a divine who refuses to heal, only divines who refuse to heal anyone but themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You’re so right. Every Pale Master should be Illusion spec-ed. It’s not up to the player to announce this. The Party Leader has to have wicked mind powerz to discern that when the player joins.
    Again.. nailed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If it's bad for someone else to ignore them, regardless of their class, it's just as bad for you to ignore them, too, regardless of your class. So, yes, if you want to be a good teammate, then, yes, you should help out your team when needed.
    Thanks for telling me what I just told you. If I didn't understand that, I wouldn't have healed them, would I?

    Now please explain why it is that I, as a rogue/melee split, have to heal others to be a good teammate, but the guy with the spells and the enhancements to buff them up to useful levels is not? Unreal.

  8. #588
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    I especially love the circular argument that nobody should expect divines to heal because this is why people don't like to play them and groups can't find healers. Uh, if the divine isn't going to heal the party, then nobody particularly needs them in the first place.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 07-22-2013 at 06:26 PM.

  9. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Yes, I understand that maybe you won't want to splash in 6 levels of cleric into your barb to make it a more sustaining build, I get that you may not want to put in a few levels of FvS to give you some self healing ability or scroll use, but the reality is, in DDO you can do that, you have the ability to invalidate your own weaknesses by being able to mix and match the classes into a build that works best for you, and lets be real here, if you are yelling at someone else to take care of you, that build you are playing is obviously not working the 'best" for you, or anyone around you.

    Anyway, Character making is its own mini-game in DDO, and for the best of players or the worst, I encourage you all to have fun with it., and never feel 'stuck' with a mistake, after all, that is what a shared bank is for LOL
    The problem with this is that, for many, being your own game developer isn't what they are signing on for. Thus making the game that much more niche.

  10. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I especially love the circular argument that nobody should expect divines to heal because this is why people don't like to play them and groups can't find healers. Uh, if the divine isn't going to heal the party, then nobody particularly needs them in the first place.
    If it makes you feel any better we don't really need you either.

  11. #591
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    If 90% of the LFM’s are saying BYOH, what do you think people are looking for? If there is that big of an interest in having these dedicated healer groups, why am I not seeing more LFM’s for them? You can say that people are too timid to put up an LFM, but if they don’t step and do something about it, then it must not bother them enough.
    But 90% of the lfm's dont say byoh. From my experience, it's considerably less than half of them.

  12. #592
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    This got my attention.

    Synergy is the idea that things work in unison, that they complement each other, where one 'group' of classes will overcome the weakness of another 'group' of classes, so that when they work together they become stronger overall.

    In most traditional Trinity Games, the "healer" style class would be all but helpless in ability kill a mob and "melee" class would fill in that lacking functionality but be unable to heal themselves and thus when they work as a group they cover each others weaknesses and give direction to each others strengths.

    IE: The "healer" keeps the "Melee" healed, the "Melee" keeps the mobs off the healer and kills them in process, and thus they continue through dungeon crawl reaping the rewards as a team.

    The reality is, Synergy is about eliminating weakness and augmenting strengths of an interaction so that the unit as a whole becomes stronger.

    In simple terms:
    Synergy is when the Whole is more then the Sum of it parts.

    In DDO, there is none of that. The Divine and Arcane classes in DDO are simply not designed with weakness that need to be filled by any other classes in this game.

    So in DDO, What is really happening is that as you add people to the group you are simply throwing more raw DPS at the dungeon, you are not augmenting fusing class traits towards each other to augment the overall benefit of the group.

    In simple Terms:
    In DDO the Whole is Equal to (or less then) the Sum of it's parts.

    However, in DDO, The classes synergize very well within a single build, and that is where the real joy and freedom of this game comes from. While I can't speak for anyone else in this game. but I enjoy trying to find new and more fun ways to build self sufficent characters, sure, we all could make cookie cutters, and what have you, but as you said, where is the fun in that, the fun lies in being able to build a self sufficent build, to push the boundries, and to see what kind of synergy you can find this game, and lets be real here, yelling 'heajls me" is not synergy in any sens of the word, when the guy with the Barb icon is is raising the main tank mid raid, while the Monk is raising the cleric, that.. my friend is a group that has found Synergy like no game has seen before.

    Or is just such my observations. I return you to your petty bickering about how Divines are not Healers now.
    If there is synergy withing a single build, that same synergy will exist between multiple players, using pure versions of those classes. This is just logic. abilities synergize or they don't. Also, to say that everybody using the same abilities on each other is synergy i think is inaccurate. It's disparate abilities that mesh. Saying that everybody being able to do everything is synergy is like saying that water synergizes with water.

    Also, i know a whole lot of people who for one reason or another, don't like playing warforged. Take that out of the mix, and sorcs and arti's and archmages especially are a lot less self sufficient.

    For you building a self sufficient toon is the ultimate fun in this game. That's fine. Doesn't mean that has to be everybody's idea of fun though. Also, it's so completely subjective that putting it in terms of whats better or worse is completely baseless.

  13. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    What you may or may not find acceptable is of little interest to me. If someone plays in a manner that I don't like, I don't care if it's in a manner you or anyone else finds acceptable. I simply wont play with them again.

    You seem to feel we are all in some way obligated to put up with each other as to do otherwise is unacceptable. While we all have the right to play any way we like, there is nothing that prevents us from avoiding those who play in a way we don't like. If you think doing so makes me a bad person, oh well.
    Wow, I don't think that a single word of this reply has anything to do with anything I've said. Maybe you quoted my post by mistake?

  14. #594
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    The OP is right. If a toon's got wings, it should know enough to have pots. Even if it doesn't know its new class very well, it should have pots. It should also know better than to run off by itself and agro a couple dozen mobs when it can't heal itself.
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  15. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon2fire View Post
    If it makes you feel any better we don't really need you either.
    Quote Originally Posted by dragon2fire View Post
    I am not so much talking about vets though guys like mo and distriburted do not bother me in the least. I am talking more about folks just being mean to each other. I have never seen this level of general hostility in the pug scene. Its one thing when all of us vets call each other gimp. Hell it would not be Sarlona with out that. Its quite another when i see people verbally assaulting each other. I can think of several times where i have seen people on voice just get livid and start screaming at some one. It is just not a good environment and find myself playing less because of it.
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  16. #596
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    If 90% of the LFM’s are saying BYOH, what do you think people are looking for? If there is that big of an interest in having these dedicated healer groups, why am I not seeing more LFM’s for them? You can say that people are too timid to put up an LFM, but if they don’t step and do something about it, then it must not bother them enough.

    If these people leave the game because of it, oh well. If you do not want to conform to what the majority is doing and are too lazy to take initiative, bye.

    I really respect you, Mobrien (sp), and Talon. I do not have anywhere near the play style as you, but you have fun at least in the way that you do. If others would do this and quit trying to nerf or put an agenda on everyone else, we would have a better game.
    depending how active the lfm is, I say about half actually state BYOH. according to this thread and threads like this from the past, every group is BYOH even if it doesn't state it in the notes.

    the trend I have been seeing for quite awhile now, and I do believe it has been on the rise since, ever since BB and the trouble it has taken to get a party healer without waiting too long people are playing without them. groups either fill that last spot with something, anything or they grab a hire. if its not your typical zerg BYOH than people are finding other ways to get heals weather it be by hire or by other party members of classes not fvs/cleric. I see this a lot now and in part its because of the decrease in DS compared to what it used to be and pot chugging/wand whipping is all that is really needed to complete a heroic quest or a epic n/h quest. I have even seen EH CiTW and FoT BYOH because finding a healer can be hard to do and people don't want to wait and spam tells to clerics/fvs if they would please heal their raid.

    it doesn't matter if their is a short supply of healers, not willing to pug or going anon. players are adapting without them. there will always be some players who feel the need to have specific cleric/fvs to heal parties, but more and more realize other classes can heal and be a team player and theres only a small per cent of quests where experienced players actually know they need that role filled. if this is what Turbine had in mind with its versatility and what the clerics/fvs had in mind by not wanting to be a healer in a party than we are getting what we wanted. players are learning to play without divine healing.

  17. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Pretty much sums up the "whiney diviny" in a nutshell.

    Don't even have to go to this extreme. Can you imagine the reaction of a party to an arcane who was extensively buffing himself but refused to do it for anyone else? After all, there's no such thing as a divine who refuses to heal, only divines who refuse to heal anyone but themselves.
    The thing is, divine classes are an obvious choice for someone who wants a ready made, user friendly, self sufficient character. Personally, I have no real problem with that if they just bother to tell us so I know to pop a hire without possibly insulting them.

  18. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Wow, I don't think that a single word of this reply has anything to do with anything I've said. Maybe you quoted my post by mistake?
    You were the one questioning whether what others thought or did was acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    LOL! Choose your side.
    Thing is i dont go out of my way to be a jerk. But that does not mean on a fvs life i need help. I do like company i do not like being pigeon holed.

  20. #600
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Festushood, it's pretty clear from your post that you did not understand what I said at all, and are just making up things about what I have said. So responding to many of yruo points would be a waste of time as they have nothing at all to do with anything I have brought up or mentioned.

    However, there is one thing you have said that does apply to what I have said, and I will respond to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    If there is synergy withing a single build, that same synergy will exist between multiple players, using pure versions of those classes. This is just logic.
    In the means of fairness, I would like to express to you that this would be faulty logic.

    Case in point:

    Synergy between a Wizard and a Monk.

    A Wizard's Zombie, Vampire, and Lich form give bonus to unarmed strikes, so a PM mixed with Monk synergizes their abilities IE: They augment each others abilities when mixed together.

    Not to mention that Monk would also provide evasion to the PM, and mixed with the feat Insightful Reflexes would provide quite a decent reflex save, making the Evasion Feat worthwhile.

    This level of Synergy also holds true for Wizard & Rogue mixes.

    At the same time: a Pure Monk or Rogue and a Pure Wizard do pretty much nothing for each other in the sense of synergizing.

    Another Example:
    Fighter Mixed with Rogue:

    Adding 2 levels of Rogue to a Fighter Build gives it Evasion, and UMD unlock, as well a slew of extra skill points to make the UMD unlock worthwhile.

    A Pure Rogue in the Group will not help the Fighter avoid the Fire Blast from an elemental at all in any form, not will it give the fighter better chance at having enough UMD to scroll raise the Rogue in case the rogue dies, nor will that rogue open the ability to scroll a Displacement spell (since that is self only)

    See there is a lot of synergy that mixing the classes within a single build bring out that is simply not available from having the classes just in the same group together.

    That is why Mixing the classes within a build develops Synergy, while grouping is in most cases on the best of days, is a sum of the parts.

    Anyway, play the way you want, and let others play the way they want, I have not needed a healer in the last 7 lives on my main, and I don't plan to ever need one in the future and the diversity of being able to build a character as I want ensures that I will never be trapped into a Trinity game with DDO, because the way this game and character build works, anyone can literally be a Trinity of One.

    Game On.

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