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  1. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok, that's a good point.

    Nowhere does it state that an Arcane needs to do damage to mobs in a PUG. I can simply be a buff bot, and you have absolutely nothing to say about it.
    If you're going to jump into the argument, you should at least inform yourself of what it is about. My point is not that Divines should not heal at all. My point is that:

    1. They might not choose Healing as their primary focus.
    2. They don't need to "report" to anyone that they did not choose Healing as their primary focus.
    3. If anyone in a party NEEDs the divine that is already in the party to do a lot of healing, it should be on the person who needs it to make sure the divine can and is willing to do that. (Of course a divine shouldn't join a party requesting a healer if that's not something they want to focus on.)

    I believe that people should build their characters in whatever way they want and is fun for them. And I don't believe people have to give a "disclaimer" every time they join a party just because their character might not perform whatever function someone thinks is attached to their class icon. Fortunately divines have other skills that contribute greatly to the party if they don't want to focus on healing. If you would like to build an arcane that does NOTHING but buff, maybe some people would invite you back. However even Bards who have been specifically wanted in parties to buff also contribute in other ways.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    You're kidding... right?



    I'm afraid you're using far too much common sense for this thread.
    Actually, since we're going by that, then the very first words are divine spell casters and healers. So, Hope you live until i'm done blasting things. If not I'll rez you .

  3. #563
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Now if Turbine made it so that the "Melee" classes could cast and heal as well as the other classes can cross function, then the game would in fact be much more balanced and fun for everyone involved.
    This would actually make the game a lot less fun. What would even be the point of having different classes if they were all the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    While it's painfully self evident that the classes are messed up, there is no synergy, nor is there anything even close to resembling any form of balance in this game among the classes, there is a great and complex system that is bar none the most versatile system of character construction I have ever seen in an MMO, and it because of that feature that there is no reason for Turbine to fix the classes.
    The different classes actually have pretty good synergy. If people choose not to take advantage of that, it's not the games fault. Also i'm not sure what your definition of balance is. Are you talking about pvp? I think you may be using only the criteria of how well can you self-sufficiently solo zerg in a group context for your comparison of balance. For people who don't play that way, the classes are balanced fine.

  4. #564
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    “Role:
    The cleric serves as a typical group’s primary healer, diviner, and defensive specialist. He can hold his own in a fight but usually isn’t well served by charging to the front of combat. The cleric’s domains and spell selection can greatly affect his role as well” (Dungeons & Dragons Players' Handbook: Core Rulebook I, v. 3.5, 2003).

    References
    Dungeons & Dragons Players' Handbook: Core Rulebook I, v. 3.5. (2003, July). Retrieved from Scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/75066202/C...ndbook#page=31

    I can't imagine why anyone would expect a cleric to heal.
    Facts have no place here.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    The disagreement is about expectations based on class, which is the D&D equivalent of a trade
    No, it's not. Your overall build may be equivalent of a trade, but class is much narrower than that. It allows you to learn certain abilities, or, in many cases, certain OPTIONS for certain abilities.

    Class would be more like, did you attend a liberal arts college, or a technical college, or an apprenticeship, or join the military?

    But even 2 different people both of whom went to the liberal arts college, maybe one majored in English while the other studied Sociology. Maybe the one military person became an infantryman, while the other became a tank mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    There is no stereotyping going on when I expect a baker to be able to make bread or pastry. There is no stereotyping going on when I expect an electrician to wire a new house to code.
    And there is no stereotyping going on when you expect a healer to heal, but there is tons of stereotyping going on when you expect that all Clerics and Favored Souls automatically have to adopt the overall role of healer just to suit you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Now, I could understand if you were soapboxing about people always assuming Halforcs could tank, or that Elves would cast, but this is not the case here.
    It's exactly the same thing, though. You get some of your character's overall abilities from their class, and some from their race. Plus some from their enhancements, some from their gear, and some from their Epic Destiny. Race or class, they both only give a portion of the overall picture.

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Nowhere does it state that an Arcane needs to do damage to mobs in a PUG. I can simply be a buff bot, and you have absolutely nothing to say about it. How dare you impose your play-style on me!
    <snip>
    Arcarnes, by far, do the lion's share of damage in most quests. But hey, I don't like that role, so I'll just buff. And because you all into this "freedom from expectations" thing, you have zero to say about it. Nil, nicht, nada.
    I don't care whether your character is "an arcane" or not, and I don't particularly care exactly what you built your character to do. But regardless of your class icon or build choices, I do expect you to be making a good overall contribution towards quest completion.

    So someone (any class) who does nothing but wave a Eternal Wand of Cure Minor Wounds, or who just casts Jump and Haste then pikes the rest of the time, doesn't cut it with me. But it's not because I have a hang up about their specific class having to do some specific job.

  7. #567
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    If you're going to jump into the argument, you should at least inform yourself of what it is about. My point is not that Divines should not heal at all. My point is that:
    Yeah, because my noob-ish ability here on the forums just makes what you’re talking about something that is “over my head.” LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    1. They might not choose Healing as their primary focus.
    Great. Arcanes don’t focus on doing damage. The focus is on buffing. Done.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    2. They don't need to "report" to anyone that they did not choose Healing as their primary focus.
    LOL.

    Great, so now my buff-bot arcane doesn’t have to announce that he is in no way, shape, or form spec-ed to do damage at all. He’s spec-ed to do do buffs. Period.

    Yeah, THAT’LL go over well in a PUG or an elitist zerg.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    3. If anyone in a party NEEDs the divine that is already in the party to do a lot of healing, it should be on the person who needs it to make sure the divine can and is willing to do that. (Of course a divine shouldn't join a party requesting a healer if that's not something they want to focus on.)
    Party Leader: “You’re a PM. Would you finger that orange-named over there?”

    Arcane: “Sorry, not spec-ed for necromancy spells.”

    Party Leader (after a long pause): “Sorry, I didn’t quite get that. Could you say it again?”

    Arcane: “Not spec-ed for Necro. I’m spec-ed for buffing.”

    Party Leader: “But…uh…you’re a Pale Master.”

    Arcane: “HOW DARE YOU IMPOSE YOUR NEEDS ON MY PLAYSTYLE!!! NOOB!!! BEING SELF-SUFFICIENT MEANS HAVING YOUR OWN INSTAKILLS!!! FRICKIN’ NOOB!!!”

    Party Leader (to Bard): “You got any instakills…?”

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I believe that people should build their characters in whatever way they want and is fun for them.
    Being a dedicated buff-bot is hysterically fun. You buff everybody at the beginning of the quest, cast Mass Protection from Elements or Haste once in a while, hang out in the back of the pack, and reap the rewards.

    What was your point again about me being informed on what the point is about? I think the point I;ve made thus far is that you never had one in the first place…

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    And I don't believe people have to give a "disclaimer" every time they join a party just because their character might not perform whatever function someone thinks is attached to their class icon.
    You’re so right. Every Pale Master should be Illusion spec-ed. It’s not up to the player to announce this. The Party Leader has to have wicked mind powerz to discern that when the player joins.
    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Fortunately divines have other skills that contribute greatly to the party if they don't want to focus on healing.
    So do Arcanes. Most of them can wield a shortbow or a crossbow, and rival Rangers on their multi-shot…

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    If you would like to build an arcane that does NOTHING but buff, maybe some people would invite you back. However even Bards who have been specifically wanted in parties to buff also contribute in other ways.
    Oh really?

    But people need to put up with that kind of **** from a divine (which is what you are basically advocating)? What – specifically – gives a Divine that degree of flexibility?

    The logical answer is: nothing, other than the healing spells they don’t bother to use on anyone else but themselves…

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Facts have no place here.
    Heh, I noticed.
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  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I don't care whether your character is "an arcane" or not, and I don't particularly care exactly what you built your character to do. But regardless of your class icon or build choices, I do expect you to be making a good overall contribution towards quest completion.

    So someone (any class) who does nothing but wave a Eternal Wand of Cure Minor Wounds, or who just casts Jump and Haste then pikes the rest of the time, doesn't cut it with me. But it's not because I have a hang up about their specific class having to do some specific job.
    so, you have an expectation for how players should perform in a group. waving a eternal cure minor wounds wand and casting buffs doing nothing else isn't enough contribution for a group. would you say the same about a divine who only heals parties and doesn't do anything else? the level of contribution that a party member provides can be seen differently from one player to another. this is where elitism gets thrown around a lot and makes for good forum stories to read.

  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I, as a melee, should run around wand healing other characters so they don't die, while a perfectly capable divine ignores them?
    If it's bad for someone else to ignore them, regardless of their class, it's just as bad for you to ignore them, too, regardless of your class. So, yes, if you want to be a good teammate, then, yes, you should help out your team when needed.

  11. #571
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, because my noob-ish ability here on the forums just makes what you’re talking about something that is “over my head.” LOL.



    Great. Arcanes don’t focus on doing damage. The focus is on buffing. Done.



    LOL.

    Great, so now my buff-bot arcane doesn’t have to announce that he is in no way, shape, or form spec-ed to do damage at all. He’s spec-ed to do do buffs. Period.

    Yeah, THAT’LL go over well in a PUG or an elitist zerg.



    Party Leader: “You’re a PM. Would you finger that orange-named over there?”

    Arcane: “Sorry, not spec-ed for necromancy spells.”

    Party Leader (after a long pause): “Sorry, I didn’t quite get that. Could you say it again?”

    Arcane: “Not spec-ed for Necro. I’m spec-ed for buffing.”

    Party Leader: “But…uh…you’re a Pale Master.”

    Arcane: “HOW DARE YOU IMPOSE YOUR NEEDS ON MY PLAYSTYLE!!! NOOB!!! BEING SELF-SUFFICIENT MEANS HAVING YOUR OWN INSTAKILLS!!! FRICKIN’ NOOB!!!”

    Party Leader (to Bard): “You got any instakills…?”



    Being a dedicated buff-bot is hysterically fun. You buff everybody at the beginning of the quest, cast Mass Protection from Elements or Haste once in a while, hang out in the back of the pack, and reap the rewards.

    What was your point again about me being informed on what the point is about? I think the point I;ve made thus far is that you never had one in the first place…



    You’re so right. Every Pale Master should be Illusion spec-ed. It’s not up to the player to announce this. The Party Leader has to have wicked mind powerz to discern that when the player joins.


    So do Arcanes. Most of them can wield a shortbow or a crossbow, and rival Rangers on their multi-shot…



    Oh really?

    But people need to put up with that kind of **** from a divine (which is what you are basically advocating)? What – specifically – gives a Divine that degree of flexibility?

    The logical answer is: nothing, other than the healing spells they don’t bother to use on anyone else but themselves…
    If you want to spec for buffs splash bard and give me the full axer package, that works for me.

  12. #572
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I don't care whether your character is "an arcane" or not, and I don't particularly care exactly what you built your character to do. But regardless of your class icon or build choices, I do expect you to be making a good overall contribution towards quest completion.
    As what is being advocated here is that the role each player has in a party is defined by the player themselves, and not the party leader or the group overall, your statement is irrelevant. At the very least it is counter-revolutionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    So someone (any class) who does nothing but wave a Eternal Wand of Cure Minor Wounds, or who just casts Jump and Haste then pikes the rest of the time, doesn't cut it with me. But it's not because I have a hang up about their specific class having to do some specific job.
    Yes, but I define success in a specific way. And according to some, if I don't like it, I need to change my build to accommodate. Self-sufficiency is king, don't you know...

    You should all spec for dealing neg level damage, and stop whining.

  13. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    .
    .
    .

    But people need to put up with that kind of **** from a divine (which is what you are basically advocating)? What – specifically – gives a Divine that degree of flexibility?

    The logical answer is: nothing, other than the healing spells they don’t bother to use on anyone else but themselves…
    *sigh
    I was pretty much with you until those last lines. You took the bait.
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  14. #574
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If you want to spec for buffs splash bard and give me the full axer package, that works for me.
    Sorry, splashing bard would be detrimental to my character because <insert specific DDO-geekish response here>.

    (I'd go with "I can't wield my eMG with a bard splash," or some other non-sensical response like that.)

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Party Leader: “You’re a PM. Would you finger that orange-named over there?”

    Arcane: “Sorry, not spec-ed for necromancy spells.”

    Party Leader (after a long pause): “Sorry, I didn’t quite get that. Could you say it again?”

    Arcane: “Not spec-ed for Necro. I’m spec-ed for buffing.”

    Party Leader: “But…uh…you’re a Pale Master.”

    Arcane: “HOW DARE YOU IMPOSE YOUR NEEDS ON MY PLAYSTYLE!!! NOOB!!! BEING SELF-SUFFICIENT MEANS HAVING YOUR OWN INSTAKILLS!!! FRICKIN’ NOOB!!!”

    Party Leader (to Bard): “You got any instakills…?”
    And while Arcane, Bard, and Party Leader were chatting, Cleric used Slay Living on the mob in question and moved on.

  16. #576
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    *sigh
    I was pretty much with you until those last lines. You took the bait.
    That's the problem when you're using absurdity to illustrate the absurd. Sometimes you get so absurd it doesn't come off well. That's what happens when you do this stuff by the seat of your pants.

  17. #577
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    And while Arcane, Bard, and Party Leader were chatting, Cleric used Slay Living on the mob in question and moved on.
    Which is the goal of a buffbot. To buff, and let everyone deal damage.

    Win-win!

  18. #578
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    And while Arcane, Bard, and Party Leader were chatting, Cleric ran forward blade barriered the melee destructed the casters and archers and finished the quest.
    ftfy

  19. #579
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Which is the goal of a buffbot. To buff, and let everyone deal damage.

    Win-win!
    Why do you think I'm fine with getting the axer buff package.

  20. #580
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    Arcarnes, by far, do the lion's share of damage in most quests. But hey, I don't like that role, so I'll just buff. And because you all into this "freedom from expectations" thing, you have zero to say about it. Nil, nicht, nada.
    What game do you play?

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