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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Sorry, this doesn't even support your point: "Clerics: Divine spell casters and healers, Clerics have a broad range of spells at their command." This doesn't state that every Cleric should heal. It doesn't even mention healing first!
    The next line: "They excel at curing ailments and healing allies but also have the ability to blast enemies with their divine power."

    You asked where it states roles for classes. There you go. They are also in the character generation screen, though abbreviated. It does not say they are only healers -- it does make clear what their most common role is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Blaming new cleric for not hjealing a TR in heroics ? What a nub ! Don't know what else to say to that.
    Did I say the people not being healed were TRs? I don't think I did.

    And for the record, I didn't say one word to this guy who wasn't healing. I treat divines well in-game, whether you want to believe that or not. I brought up the example because of the suggestions that non-healing divines don't exist.

  2. #542
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    The next line: "They excel at curing ailments and healing allies but also have the ability to blast enemies with their divine power."

    You asked where it states roles for classes. There you go. They are also in the character generation screen, though abbreviated. It does not say they are only healers -- it does make clear what their most common role is.
    Nowhere does it state that every Divine should heal. Just as nowhere does it state that every Fighter should DPS over Tanking or vice versa.

    You and Gremmlynn are trying to make a point that it is acceptable to assume that any divine in your party is going to heal because that is their role and that if a Divine is not a primary healer they should warn the party. There is no DDO material which states that it is their role - it is a false assumption.

  4. #544
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    byoh
    You must gather your party before venturing forth.
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

  5. #545
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Well that, plus the fact that many players fantasy genre exposure is from other MMOs and not necessarily from old school D&D. A decade of holy trinity stay in your lane style gaming ruined it for alot of folks. Too many healer classes in other older MMOs are restricted to healing and buffing - not by the community but by the class itself. I see alot of support on these forums for wanting to bring some new blood into the mix, right up to and until those cats start playing the game the holy trinity way, which it can be played in - its just not limited the same way other MMOs are to do so.
    Yeah, that's where it gets weird for me personally. I'll take the time to interact with new/newer players and teach runs and all that. But it's really weird to me, reading about multi tr's blaming divines for their own choices.

    Bah, I'm done with this for awhile - I'm actually getting irritated over it. One thing I am looking forward to in the enhancement pass though is more freedom to build our divines as we please. At least it's getting a little closer to PnP. It'll be up to the divine players then to continue to extend the same healing and protections while enjoying the awesomeness. That worries me a bit actually. I'd hate to see things get as crazy as they did when epic ward was lifted for arcanes...
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  6. #546
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    nice one, you sir win that round.

  7. #547
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    The next line: "They excel at curing ailments and healing allies but also have the ability to blast enemies with their divine power."

    You asked where it states roles for classes. There you go. They are also in the character generation screen, though abbreviated. It does not say they are only healers -- it does make clear what their most common role is.



    Did I say the people not being healed were TRs? I don't think I did.

    And for the record, I didn't say one word to this guy who wasn't healing. I treat divines well in-game, whether you want to believe that or not. I brought up the example because of the suggestions that non-healing divines don't exist.
    And heaven forbid one decides to, "...ability to blast enemies with their divine power."

    That's not a role definition either really. You are confused.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Sorry, this doesn't even support your point: "Clerics: Divine spell casters and healers, Clerics have a broad range of spells at their command." This doesn't state that every Cleric should heal. It doesn't even mention healing first!
    "Divine spell casters and healers, Clerics have a broad range of spells at their command. They excel at curing ailments and healing allies but also have the ability to blast enemies with their divine power." (emphasis added)

    Actually, they do mention healing first when they say what clerics can do. Nice try, though.
    While it doesn't say that every cleric should heal, it does say they excel at it.

    The point goes to Q.
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  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Nowhere does it state that every Divine should heal.
    What you originally requested: "Where in the game does it state what role any class is supposed to perform? Please, point me to the game source (not player source)."

    And I did. You don't like the answer, so you're trying to move the goalposts.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    You and Gremmlynn are trying to make a point that it is acceptable to assume that any divine in your party is going to heal because that is their role and that if a Divine is not a primary healer they should warn the party. There is no DDO material which states that it is their role - it is a false assumption.
    Yes, there is such material, I just pointed you to it. As I said before, it doesn't claim that clerics can only heal, but it makes very clear that that is a primary role.

    Even if you were right, though, what does it matter if there's no "official" statement of the roles? Most players understand that different classes exist for a reason, and they will (and should) continue to expect that characters will play the roles usually filled by those classes. If you aren't willing to do that, you have only two choices: tell others, or be resented.

    Doesn't matter to me, because if I were a divine that didn't heal, I'd tell the group right away to ensure they didn't expect something I couldn't provide. But I'm just, I dunno, reasonable that way.

  10. #550
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Nowhere does it state that every Divine should heal. Just as nowhere does it state that every Fighter should DPS over Tanking or vice versa.

    You and Gremmlynn are trying to make a point that it is acceptable to assume that any divine in your party is going to heal because that is their role and that if a Divine is not a primary healer they should warn the party. There is no DDO material which states that it is their role - it is a false assumption.
    Ok, that's a good point.

    Nowhere does it state that an Arcane needs to do damage to mobs in a PUG. I can simply be a buff bot, and you have absolutely nothing to say about it. How dare you impose your play-style on me!

    The fact is that all of you people who whine, snivel, and cry about divines being nothing but hjealbots would never, ever, never, ever, never run with a arcane buffbot. Never.

    Arcarnes, by far, do the lion's share of damage in most quests. But hey, I don't like that role, so I'll just buff. And because you all into this "freedom from expectations" thing, you have zero to say about it. Nil, nicht, nada.

  11. #551
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok, that's a good point.

    Nowhere does it state that an Arcane needs to do damage to mobs in a PUG. I can simply be a buff bot, and you have absolutely nothing to say about it. How dare you impose your play-style on me!

    The fact is that all of you people who whine, snivel, and cry about divines being nothing but hjealbots would never, ever, never, ever, never run with a arcane buffbot. Never.

    Arcarnes, by far, do the lion's share of damage in most quests. But hey, I don't like that role, so I'll just buff. And because you all into this "freedom from expectations" thing, you have zero to say about it. Nil, nicht, nada.
    u8 and previous epic quests come to mind.

  12. #552
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok, that's a good point.

    Nowhere does it state that an Arcane needs to do damage to mobs in a PUG. I can simply be a buff bot, and you have absolutely nothing to say about it. How dare you impose your play-style on me!

    The fact is that all of you people who whine, snivel, and cry about divines being nothing but hjealbots would never, ever, never, ever, never run with a arcane buffbot. Never.

    Arcarnes, by far, do the lion's share of damage in most quests. But hey, I don't like that role, so I'll just buff. And because you all into this "freedom from expectations" thing, you have zero to say about it. Nil, nicht, nada.
    and my barbarian will be a healbot, investing just enough umd to use this! http://ddowiki.com/page/Eternal_Wand...e_Minor_Wounds

    vote anarchy

  13. #553
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    and my barbarian will be a healbot, investing just enough umd to use this! http://ddowiki.com/page/Eternal_Wand...e_Minor_Wounds

    vote anarchy
    That's a pro move

  14. #554
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Hey Lords and Ladies, I see the topic of "OMG cleric is not a healer" has again reared it's ugly head on this forum, not as if this is a new thing, and I am pretty much sure that any topic about pugs will turn into such a travesty.

    I will say this, after playing GW2 for a bit, a wonderful break from the game and the forums, I learned something really great, that wanting or needing a 'healer' sucks, and personally, I feel that GW2 will change the face of future MMO's out there, however, as it stands, in DDO, they have the traditional Trinity model if you will, a "Healer" a "Melee" and a "Caster" the main point of contention here, is that the "Healer" in DDO can melee and cast, and the "Caster" can melee and heal, but the Melee's however in DDO pretty much get the shaft, because they can't cast nor heal.

    Now if Turbine made it so that the "Melee" classes could cast and heal as well as the other classes can cross function, then the game would in fact be much more balanced and fun for everyone involved.

    Since I don't see that happening any time soon, there is an answer to this issue, and it is because of that "answer" that Turbine really does not need to "fix" this problem, even if it is there, we as players can fix it ourselves. The main way to fix the issue is via multi-class. There is zero reasons for anyone to "need" a healer when they can at any time "be" a healer to some degree by simply splashing in cleric or fvs, even arti or arcane if you opt to play war forged, throw in rogue or monk for evasion, and you can make yourself a sweet little monster of a build.

    If you want to play a pure build, then sadly the game becomes quite the gear grind for pots, wands, UMD, and a slew of other things to fill the gaps that the class you have opted to play suffers from.

    While it's painfully self evident that the classes are messed up, there is no synergy, nor is there anything even close to resembling any form of balance in this game among the classes, there is a great and complex system that is bar none the most versatile system of character construction I have ever seen in an MMO, and it because of that feature that there is no reason for Turbine to fix the classes.

    Yes, I understand that maybe you won't want to splash in 6 levels of cleric into your barb to make it a more sustaining build, I get that you may not want to put in a few levels of FvS to give you some self healing ability or scroll use, but the reality is, in DDO you can do that, you have the ability to invalidate your own weaknesses by being able to mix and match the classes into a build that works best for you, and lets be real here, if you are yelling at someone else to take care of you, that build you are playing is obviously not working the 'best" for you, or anyone around you.

    Anyway, Character making is its own mini-game in DDO, and for the best of players or the worst, I encourage you all to have fun with it., and never feel 'stuck' with a mistake, after all, that is what a shared bank is for LOL

  15. #555
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    u8 and previous epic quests come to mind.
    And the sheer amount of negative feedback given about restricting arcanes to mass holding mobs proves the point being made - that it would never be acceptable to play an arcane this way and continue to keep a good rep.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #556
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    snip
    Best post in thread
    /thread

  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    If a character is built as a healer then it definitely would be a waste if they refused to heal. I think you mean divine. And that right there is the problem - people look at a divine class and automatically think "healer". One does not equal the other and you should determine if the divine in your party is, in fact, built as a healer if you really need one.
    I personally find it hard to believe any "good" player would build a divine that can't heal well. I think it is better to ascertain whether the person playing the divine is interested in paying any attention at all to the red bars of other party members. Because it generally has more to do with play style or ability, than the character.

    The same goes on the other end though. Anyone who is in constant need of healing is doing something wrong IMO and anyone who expects to constantly be at 100% hp's is suffering from unreasonable expectations. While a divine who is generally oblivious of the condition of the rest of the party unless they are playing healbot just isn't cut out to be a healer.

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    ...
    Please never try to bring an argument that could make DDO copy anything from GW2. Never.

    GW is a bulletproof game for new gamers in the MMO industry while still keeping some depth for advanced players in term of playability. It's simplistic at best and doesn't aim for the same crowd at all.

    The trinity as you call it is actually pretty fun for alot of people and has some very good point to it. Also it encourages group play since every roles is needed. Don't just puke your last month's experience because it might just be awesome since it felt fresh and new to you.

    Edit: You don't need as much balance in an Action RPG because it's not all about the gear or class, but it's the player himself that makes all the difference.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-22-2013 at 04:40 PM.
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  19. #559
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    “Role:
    The cleric serves as a typical group’s primary healer, diviner, and defensive specialist. He can hold his own in a fight but usually isn’t well served by charging to the front of combat. The cleric’s domains and spell selection can greatly affect his role as well” (Dungeons & Dragons Players' Handbook: Core Rulebook I, v. 3.5, 2003).

    References
    Dungeons & Dragons Players' Handbook: Core Rulebook I, v. 3.5. (2003, July). Retrieved from Scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/75066202/C...ndbook#page=31

    I can't imagine why anyone would expect a cleric to heal.
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  20. #560
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    We're not talking about a specialization. Every character in DDO can heal itself to one degree or another. Not every person in the Real World can perform surgery. Your argument is specious.
    Actually, anyone in the real world can perform surgery. They just do it very badly. Kind of like comparing cleric/fvs group healing to ranger group healing. Sure the ranger can do it, just very badly.

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