You are once again engaging in unproductive straw man arguments rather than responding to what I have actually written.
What you and the others are going on about is more like a guy in a hospital wearing scrubs, with a stethoscope around his neck, who then complains when you assume that he's a doctor.
Last edited by Qaliya; 07-22-2013 at 01:17 PM.
That person could be a
DO (Sorry they can call themselves doctors if they want but real Doctors are MD's)
or probably a few other things that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. It's a perfect example of how stereotyping for any reason is always a bad idea.
Playing in a group means upping the total effectiveness of the whole group, not of your own character only (unless you split/zerg obviously). If the Barb is stupid and taking damage and keeping him alive results in a loss of 80% of my CCing/DPSing than it is not worth it, that's just logic. You let him die like any other noob and carry on. And if he whines, you show him how it's done the Divine way. He will then maybe understand that a divine is not only a healer if he didn't know already.
But someone saying he won't heal in any circumstances is what trouble me. I just don't understand why one would limit himself instead of using the whole package of skills he has at his disposal. I just don't get it. It's either being bad or being selfish/not understanding what might be best for the group in x or y circumstances.
Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-22-2013 at 01:31 PM.
Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por
...And then there was silence
Agreed. This forum in general has a very antagonistic tone to me, and reinforces the above.
Healers that refuse to heal others, blaze through the forum and parade their stories, ultimately refusing to PuG, and dang proud of it. Make sure to highlight the melee who zergs ahead and dies, then sends insulting commentary. Neat stories, but have never experienced it in game.
Theorycrafters that advocate only self-sufficient builds. High emphasis on arcane. Next up divine, please weild a great sword, be sure to maintain backpack space for the remainder of your horrible party. After that you can probably buy the monk class, which then can be splashed with all the other classes.
A group of players that has demanded, and received, numerous (and ongoing) nerfs to game content so their builds work. Since the opening month of the game, I might add.
This thread, about how to exclude and ostracize anyone who is not on board with their philosophy.
My only disagreement is about the root causes of the above. You blame the game. I blame the players.
Last edited by Seere; 07-22-2013 at 01:40 PM.
And for all the people in this thread who talk about divines not healing at all: while that is their right I have never seen it happen.
As for this "idealized efficiency" debate - it isn't idealized.
I always sorta laugh when I make a comment - like I did with the pally self-healing issue - and I get this response like "I get 400 hp from one CLW spell" BS. Once you start digging into the numbers you find that the details behind that - while maybe partially true - are not as cut-and-dried as people make them out to be. It involves EDs (hard to factor in when you're still at lvl 18), specific gear (someone got lucky when they farmed something), and shedding a bunch of feats / skills / enhancements for specific feats / skills / enhancements to GET that partially BS number.
Oh, and magically, that number starts to drop as people start actually doing the calculations.
A fine example of "idealized efficiency" was the back-and-forth I had with EllisDee - his high numbers on CSW were all due to making his self-heals E-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T, at the expense of all else.
So, in short, there was not generalization in place at all. The toon was specced and geared to do one thing: heal itself efficiently. That's specialization...not generalization. A generalized toon would not take a feat that maximizes healing and lots of healing amp, AND a high devotion item, AND a whole bunch of other stuff.
So, please, spare me about how good builds handle all of this stuff. The fact is that you're not covering all ground...you're only covering your ass. And you're also gimping yourself in places that you deny you're gimped.
Wow...profanity filter didn't filter out a word.
Gonna get a nasty notification I guess...
Though I've seen lots of cases people who build things that not healers not healing, who often then get bullied by people who think that they "should" be a healer.
Anyone who doesn't know the difference between certain specific classes that can be used to build for many different roles, and a particular role that some people build for, but others don't, using a variety of classes, is part of the problem.
Class is not role.
First, I come from a family of DOs.
Second, I've probably been through more medical issues than 90% of this forum. My list of doctors include DOs and MDs. Nowadays, there is zero difference between a DO and an MD. In fact, I've had DOs refer MDs and MDs refer DOs.
Again, you live in the 1950s...
They are not being realistic, and apparently would rather be constantly upset than accept that people are the way they are.
Class icons do matter. If you don't want to do what the icon implies, tell people. Or, create needless conflict and drive up your blood pressure if that's what turns you on I guess.
ETA: I ran Vile Apothecary at level yesterday with a FVS who, the best I could tell, did not heal anyone but himself even once.
Now, before I go i'll just conclude with what I meant: Since (I believe so) that every divine has the power to heal to some extent... and more than any other classes without investing into it, I don't understand that some won't even if it's their best contribution at the moment. Just because they told themselves everyone should be self sufficient and they don't need to. Then they fall on someone that isn't self sufficient and instead of accepting the fact that he's not, will try to show him he should by not healing him (that's kind of badly explained I know I have trouble formulating this and not enought time). When in fact they should just go off their natural way of playing to do what has to be done which is, in this case, healing that guy. My last exemple of someone taking too much ressources still hold true though... there has to be a middle ground, no one wants to just keep on healing someone because he's playing bad as I think you stated earlier as well.
I know... not everyone does get their fun out of maximizing their output so they prefer doing what's more pleasant to them. But still, why not do what's best, it's still the same game they're playing
Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por
...And then there was silence
Anyone complaining about the bad CC who isn't tripping and so forth is a hypocrite. Anyone complaining about the bad healing who isn't even trying to use their own healing options is also a hypocrite.
I'm not just talking about Cure Serious or Silver Flame pots, either. Too many times I've seen a (poorly played) Ranger or Paladin slowly die, without their blue bar ever moving off of full. What are you saving those 200 or 500 or 1000 SP for? And then whine about how bad the "healer" is, when you took off halfway across the map by yourself?
In D&D a Cleric would follow his Deity's ethos. So the Cleric would only be a "healer" if his Deity was a god of healing. There are over 100 deities in just the Greyhawk setting. And they are not all or mostly healing gods...
Your argument that sorcs have to give something up would be more valid if there were more useful spells in the game, and not having PRE that pigeonhole the player into being really powerful with one element. Even then sorcs can spec into the 2 others that are not opposed to the one they chose.
The "without obligation to heal others" is 100% true as a blanket statement.
Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.
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