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  1. #481
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Uh huh you realize that your previous statements sound like "Toss me a hjeal and make me sammich"?
    I've always preferred "Hold my cape."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    What more experienced players are trying to tell you is simply that your attitude is the reason you have trouble grouping.
    I never said I have trouble grouping. I don't generally have trouble grouping (as long as there are groups around, of course.)

    You are once again engaging in unproductive straw man arguments rather than responding to what I have actually written.


    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    What you are talking about is called "stereotyping" and isn't tolerated in RL either. You might have certain expectations of a person in RL based on their race or gender but it isn't polite or socially correct to actually act on those expectations.
    Your analogy is off base to the point of being insulting. Skin color doesn't imply anything inherent about capabilities; a class icon in a game does.

    What you and the others are going on about is more like a guy in a hospital wearing scrubs, with a stethoscope around his neck, who then complains when you assume that he's a doctor.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    And no, I don't agree that it is on the player to announce that they will not be doing those things anymore than I think a woman in the 50s should have to come into a room and announce that she is not going to be cleaning up. O.o
    There are always people who'd rather curse the darkness than light a candle. Do whatever you like -- you'll have to deal with the consequences, not me. I guarantee you that you are not going to change the expectations of most players either way, but if it makes you feel better to needlessly get upset about something you could easily fix, and then complain about it on the forums, by all means enjoy.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 07-22-2013 at 01:17 PM.

  3. #483
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post


    What you and the others are going on about is more like a guy in a hospital wearing scrubs, with a stethoscope around his neck, who then complains when you assume that he's a doctor.
    Perfect example to prove his point.

    That person could be a
    RSN
    LPN
    Nurse's Aid
    Physcian's Assistant
    DO (Sorry they can call themselves doctors if they want but real Doctors are MD's)
    or probably a few other things that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. It's a perfect example of how stereotyping for any reason is always a bad idea.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    For a cleric I would agree with you. But as I said earlier there is a big difference between having enough in healing to heal yourself and maybe toss out a little healing here and there, and having enough healing to keep up a Barb who is tanking a raid. Again, since you don't know how the other character is built, if you need a certain role it is better not to assume but to ask.
    If the Barb is pwning everything and your best contribution would be to keep him alive, would you if you could? I would if he seems to be doing more than I can. Now we both know that won't happen often in heroic levels but you can see where i'm going.

    Playing in a group means upping the total effectiveness of the whole group, not of your own character only (unless you split/zerg obviously). If the Barb is stupid and taking damage and keeping him alive results in a loss of 80% of my CCing/DPSing than it is not worth it, that's just logic. You let him die like any other noob and carry on. And if he whines, you show him how it's done the Divine way. He will then maybe understand that a divine is not only a healer if he didn't know already.

    But someone saying he won't heal in any circumstances is what trouble me. I just don't understand why one would limit himself instead of using the whole package of skills he has at his disposal. I just don't get it. It's either being bad or being selfish/not understanding what might be best for the group in x or y circumstances.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-22-2013 at 01:31 PM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  5. #485
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    DO (Sorry they can call themselves doctors if they want but real Doctors are MD's)
    (Rolls eyes)

    Get out of the 1950s, son. You'll live longer.

  6. #486
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    (Rolls eyes)

    Get out of the 1950s, son. You'll live longer.
    It was a joke out of bad personal experience, but in general no I have little respect for DO's because I've yet to meet one worthy of it. They've either been adequate or incompetent and neither is worthy of respect.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post

    Eventually the griefing got boring though, and then came the outright xenophobic grouping, with zero acceptance of black sheep classes, rogues became obsolete for the vast majority of quests...

    And now in this very thread, from pretty much every faction I see the same thing hurled at each other, well if you prefer to play a divine like this you should just solo, oh you prefer to play a pure dps so you should just solo with a hirling or stick to a static group, that pugs are just a PITA and not worth the effort, so just solo if you can unless you have friends you know can handle it.

    Agreed. This forum in general has a very antagonistic tone to me, and reinforces the above.

    Healers that refuse to heal others, blaze through the forum and parade their stories, ultimately refusing to PuG, and dang proud of it. Make sure to highlight the melee who zergs ahead and dies, then sends insulting commentary. Neat stories, but have never experienced it in game.

    Theorycrafters that advocate only self-sufficient builds. High emphasis on arcane. Next up divine, please weild a great sword, be sure to maintain backpack space for the remainder of your horrible party. After that you can probably buy the monk class, which then can be splashed with all the other classes.

    A group of players that has demanded, and received, numerous (and ongoing) nerfs to game content so their builds work. Since the opening month of the game, I might add.

    This thread, about how to exclude and ostracize anyone who is not on board with their philosophy.

    My only disagreement is about the root causes of the above. You blame the game. I blame the players.
    Last edited by Seere; 07-22-2013 at 01:40 PM.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    If the Barb is pwning everything and your best contribution would be to keep him alive, would you if you could? I would if he seems to be doing more than I can. Now we both know that won't happen often in heroic levels but you can see where i'm going.

    Playing in a group means upping the total effectiveness of the whole group, not of your own character only (unless you split/zerg obviously). If the Barb is stupid and taking damage and keeping him alive results in a loss of 80% of my CCing/DPSing than it is not worth it, that's just logic. You let him die like any other noob and carry on. And if he whines, you show him how it's done the Divine way. He will then maybe understand that a divine is not only a healer if he didn't know already.

    But someone saying he won't heal in any circumstances is what trouble me. I just don't understand why one would limit himself instead of using the whole package of skills he has at his disposal. I just don't get it. It's either being bad or being selfish/not understanding what might be best for the group in x or y circumstances.
    I didn't make a judgment on whether healing that Barb is worth it. I said a player might not have decided to build that much healing into their divine.

    And for all the people in this thread who talk about divines not healing at all: while that is their right I have never seen it happen.

  9. #489
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Perfect example to prove his point.

    That person could be a
    RSN
    LPN
    Nurse's Aid
    Physcian's Assistant
    DO (Sorry they can call themselves doctors if they want but real Doctors are MD's)
    or probably a few other things that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. It's a perfect example of how stereotyping for any reason is always a bad idea.
    This could also be the IT guy who spilt coffee all over his cloths because he got cut off on his way in to the office. I've been that guy and even without the stethoscope was still mistaken for a doctor.

  10. #490
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    As for this "idealized efficiency" debate - it isn't idealized.

    I always sorta laugh when I make a comment - like I did with the pally self-healing issue - and I get this response like "I get 400 hp from one CLW spell" BS. Once you start digging into the numbers you find that the details behind that - while maybe partially true - are not as cut-and-dried as people make them out to be. It involves EDs (hard to factor in when you're still at lvl 18), specific gear (someone got lucky when they farmed something), and shedding a bunch of feats / skills / enhancements for specific feats / skills / enhancements to GET that partially BS number.

    Oh, and magically, that number starts to drop as people start actually doing the calculations.

    A fine example of "idealized efficiency" was the back-and-forth I had with EllisDee - his high numbers on CSW were all due to making his self-heals E-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T, at the expense of all else.

    So, in short, there was not generalization in place at all. The toon was specced and geared to do one thing: heal itself efficiently. That's specialization...not generalization. A generalized toon would not take a feat that maximizes healing and lots of healing amp, AND a high devotion item, AND a whole bunch of other stuff.

    So, please, spare me about how good builds handle all of this stuff. The fact is that you're not covering all ground...you're only covering your ass. And you're also gimping yourself in places that you deny you're gimped.

  11. #491
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Wow...profanity filter didn't filter out a word.

    Gonna get a nasty notification I guess...

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seere View Post
    Healers that refuse to heal others
    I've never seen or even heard of that. That doesn't make any sense at all.

    Though I've seen lots of cases people who build things that not healers not healing, who often then get bullied by people who think that they "should" be a healer.

    Anyone who doesn't know the difference between certain specific classes that can be used to build for many different roles, and a particular role that some people build for, but others don't, using a variety of classes, is part of the problem.

    Class is not role.

  13. #493
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It was a joke out of bad personal experience, but in general no I have little respect for DO's because I've yet to meet one worthy of it. They've either been adequate or incompetent and neither is worthy of respect.
    LOL.

    First, I come from a family of DOs.

    Second, I've probably been through more medical issues than 90% of this forum. My list of doctors include DOs and MDs. Nowadays, there is zero difference between a DO and an MD. In fact, I've had DOs refer MDs and MDs refer DOs.

    Again, you live in the 1950s...

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Perfect example to prove his point.

    That person could be a
    RSN
    LPN
    Nurse's Aid
    Physcian's Assistant
    Yes, but the "don't assume I'm a healer" people would want me to think he might also be a trash collector, lumberjack or chef.

    They are not being realistic, and apparently would rather be constantly upset than accept that people are the way they are.

    Class icons do matter. If you don't want to do what the icon implies, tell people. Or, create needless conflict and drive up your blood pressure if that's what turns you on I guess.

    ETA: I ran Vile Apothecary at level yesterday with a FVS who, the best I could tell, did not heal anyone but himself even once.

  15. #495
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    As for this "idealized efficiency" debate - it isn't idealized.

    I always sorta laugh when I make a comment - like I did with the pally self-healing issue - and I get this response like "I get 400 hp from one CLW spell" BS. Once you start digging into the numbers you find that the details behind that - while maybe partially true - are not as cut-and-dried as people make them out to be. It involves EDs (hard to factor in when you're still at lvl 18), specific gear (someone got lucky when they farmed something), and shedding a bunch of feats / skills / enhancements for specific feats / skills / enhancements to GET that partially BS number.

    Oh, and magically, that number starts to drop as people start actually doing the calculations.

    A fine example of "idealized efficiency" was the back-and-forth I had with EllisDee - his high numbers on CSW were all due to making his self-heals E-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T, at the expense of all else.

    So, in short, there was not generalization in place at all. The toon was specced and geared to do one thing: heal itself efficiently. That's specialization...not generalization. A generalized toon would not take a feat that maximizes healing and lots of healing amp, AND a high devotion item, AND a whole bunch of other stuff.

    So, please, spare me about how good builds handle all of this stuff. The fact is that you're not covering all ground...you're only covering your ass. And you're also gimping yourself in places that you deny you're gimped.
    I was waiting for some to say they can heal for "400" with a csw pot so I could say bull****. with Leviks 20%, 15% pally past lives, 10 and 20% human hamp, 10% ship buff I couldn't even break 100 pre-20. never mind monk hamp included when my main was a monk for the past lives.

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I didn't make a judgment on whether healing that Barb is worth it. I said a player might not have decided to build that much healing into their divine.

    And for all the people in this thread who talk about divines not healing at all: while that is their right I have never seen it happen.
    Just quoting so we know who i'm talking to the most, not saying you're making judgment or anything btw... bad english is bad english .

    Now, before I go i'll just conclude with what I meant: Since (I believe so) that every divine has the power to heal to some extent... and more than any other classes without investing into it, I don't understand that some won't even if it's their best contribution at the moment. Just because they told themselves everyone should be self sufficient and they don't need to. Then they fall on someone that isn't self sufficient and instead of accepting the fact that he's not, will try to show him he should by not healing him (that's kind of badly explained I know I have trouble formulating this and not enought time). When in fact they should just go off their natural way of playing to do what has to be done which is, in this case, healing that guy. My last exemple of someone taking too much ressources still hold true though... there has to be a middle ground, no one wants to just keep on healing someone because he's playing bad as I think you stated earlier as well.

    I know... not everyone does get their fun out of maximizing their output so they prefer doing what's more pleasant to them. But still, why not do what's best, it's still the same game they're playing
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  17. #497
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yes, but the "don't assume I'm a healer" people would want me to think he might also be a trash collector, lumberjack or chef.

    They are not being realistic, and apparently would rather be constantly upset than accept that people are the way they are.

    Class icons do matter. If you don't want to do what the icon implies, tell people. Or, create needless conflict and drive up your blood pressure if that's what turns you on I guess.

    ETA: I ran Vile Apothecary at level yesterday with a FVS who, the best I could tell, did not heal anyone but himself even once.
    They could be a trash collector, lumberjack or chef too. I used to work as a mechanic before I was disabled, but because at one point in my life I had a job working as kennel help in a vet hospital I still had a large number of scrubs. I used to wear them as pajama's so if something had gotten me up in the middle of the night there was a chance I would go out that way. Was I in anyway related to the medical field at that point?

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Melee Only types (non-SP users) have many skills that they can use to help mitigate incoming damage. Trip, Stun, and SAP are just a few methods.
    QFT.

    Anyone complaining about the bad CC who isn't tripping and so forth is a hypocrite. Anyone complaining about the bad healing who isn't even trying to use their own healing options is also a hypocrite.

    I'm not just talking about Cure Serious or Silver Flame pots, either. Too many times I've seen a (poorly played) Ranger or Paladin slowly die, without their blue bar ever moving off of full. What are you saving those 200 or 500 or 1000 SP for? And then whine about how bad the "healer" is, when you took off halfway across the map by yourself?

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Your analogy is off base to the point of being insulting. Skin color doesn't imply anything inherent about capabilities; a class icon in a game does.

    What you and the others are going on about is more like a guy in a hospital wearing scrubs, with a stethoscope around his neck, who then complains when you assume that he's a doctor.
    I don't know why you would find it insulting since I didn't claim that you do this in RL. It does happen to be the case that your attitude about divines is called stereotyping. As I've said before divine does not = healer. It is a shame that so many people in DDO have come to think that but it is wrong. I have seen nothing in the DDO game stating that a Cleric = a Healer. And in D&D: "According to the second edition Player's Handbook, the cleric class is similar to certain religious orders of knighthood of the Middle Ages such as the Teutonic Knights, the Knights Templar, and Hospitalers, which combined military and religious training with a code of protection and service." Which is how I've always seen them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_...s_%26_Dragons)

    In D&D a Cleric would follow his Deity's ethos. So the Cleric would only be a "healer" if his Deity was a god of healing. There are over 100 deities in just the Greyhawk setting. And they are not all or mostly healing gods...

  20. #500
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Plenty of clerics/fvs join a PUG expecting to heal, do nothing but heal - and still get ostracized/belittled because the manner that they healed the group wasn't up to some particular member or party leader's expectation. I typically avoid groups with only a cleric/fvs icon showing even when I want the quest on my cleric. The exception is when I know that there are relatively few sticky situations and am fairly certain I could solo the quest with the rest of them all standing at the entrance doing nothing.

    The point is that the flawed gameplay and expectations of gameplay that occur in the game is not an excuse for any particular game design problem or player interaction principle. I have also been in hundreds of groups where a healbot was desired by someone in the group (usually the leader), and the healbot wound up serving absolutely no purpose whatsoever. That actually happens a lot in groups with heavy ranged tendencies, as sometimes no one takes any damage, whatsoever.
    The deficiency is not in the difference between styles of play, but is in reading the group, understanding the player reading it does not fit the description of what is desired, and joining the group anyway. It DOES NOT MATTER what the joiner thinks would be better for the group. If they do not like the parameters of the LFM, their option is to not join the group. Instead of trying to take over someone elses group they need to make their own group if they want to control the parameters of how the group is going to be run. Then they can dictate terms about how heaving a dedicated healer isnt D&D like. The LFM could be as absurd as "dance party in waterworks" and if the player doesnt want to dance in Waterworks, its completely lame for them to join the group and pee and moan about how dancing in WW isnt required to beat the quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    This is absolutely not true as a blanket statement. Usually, killing something involves doing damage on a failed attempt - which can pull aggro. Clerics often have much better reasons for taking quicken as a feat (improves casting speed dramatically, not so for a sorc), have healing auras and better PRR, better saves (in fort at least), and double the hit die. They get Destruction, Slay Living, and Implosion as instakillers that they can swap out as needed (and often don't have better spells to use in their place). Sorcerors must give up something else for every instakill spell they choose, and that something else is usually pretty noteworthy. While a caster cleric definitely has necromancy as a focus option, with tons of spells that will use the DC - sorcs must have evocation or conjuration to even pick up their savant lines.

    Depending on the quest (lets say a quickfoot hideout where almost everyone has evasion), a necro-focused cleric will outkill a typical sorceror. Clerics were never meant to be healbots in D&D, which is why their spell options included so many other possibilities. If the developers of DDO meant to change that pattern, then they messed up bad. My own cleric is much more successful when NOT restricted solely to healing tasks. This is a situation where a single positive disproves the negative.
    The single positive doesnt disprove the entire negative in a discussion of degree, where degree is measured in the quests where one will outkill the other. Id say its somewhere between 85 and 90 percent of all content that a sorc AS LEAST AS GOOD AS OR BETTER at killing than a cleric played by the same player (ruling out player deficiencies). Id even refute your quickfoot hideout example, because there are plenty of sorc spells that do enough damage at that level that they might as well be an insta kill w/ no save. Evasion doesnt matter to ray spells. I will also say that in quests where the cleric is better, they arent as much better by degree as the sorc is by degree when the sorc is better.

    Your argument that sorcs have to give something up would be more valid if there were more useful spells in the game, and not having PRE that pigeonhole the player into being really powerful with one element. Even then sorcs can spec into the 2 others that are not opposed to the one they chose.

    The "without obligation to heal others" is 100% true as a blanket statement.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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