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  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I don't say "job" in this context in a bad way. I'm happy to play my role in the party to the best of my ability, and as I said, do other things as well when necessary.

    Depends on what one means by "assume that cleric is going to heal you". I don't assume that he/she is going to trail behind me and constantly toss spells at me. I DO assume that he/she will pay at least as much attention to the state of the party that I do and use his/her inherent class abilities to work towards success of the party.

    Last life I was in groups where clerics/FVSs spent all of their mana on mostly ineffectual blade barriers while I, as an artificer, ran around scroll healing and tossing potions at people. When people who can't do what you do nearly as well as you have to pick up the slack because you're too self-absorbed to see what the party needs, you're not welcome in my groups.

    As a WF arcane, I've been in parties where a cleric/FVS was healing me and specifically told them they didn't need to do so, to save their mana. (My standard line is "only heal me if I'm under 50% and on my butt".) It's all about being reasonable and working as a team.
    That's too bad that your parties required someone to scroll heal and toss potions at them all the time. Its also too bad that your Clerics / Fvs Blade Barriers were mostly ineffectual. They can be some of the most effective AoEs if done properly. If the Cleric / FvS didn't do any healing I would agree that they should do some. But if the party requires constant healing I would be looking at what's wrong with the party.
    Last edited by HAL; 07-22-2013 at 10:01 AM.

  2. #462
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    In your case, rather rude responses and the use of strawman arguments. To wit:
    I've repeatedly said I do not expect divines to be healbots, I just expect them to contribute heals when necessary in a reasonable manner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    When a cleric focuses on trying to kill enemies to the exclusion of his primary class strength, then yes, I think that's foolish. Or I guess, more often when it comes to MMOs, selfish.
    Uh huh you realize that your previous statements sound like "Toss me a hjeal and make me sammich"?

  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    When you had accident and need heart surgery you are sent to surgeon.
    When your barbarian is tripped, stunned, held at 10% HP, you need healing, and someone will throw you a heal.

    When you was uncareful and cut yourself while cutting bread for sandwich, and have a minor bleeding and visit surgeon he will laugh you and kick out of the hospital.
    When your barbarian took few points of damage from kobold, drink a potion.
    There you go

  4. #464
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    In your case, rather rude responses and the use of strawman arguments. To wit:



    I've repeatedly said I do not expect divines to be healbots, I just expect them to contribute heals when necessary in a reasonable manner. You ignore all of those comments and then claim that I am "bagging divines for not being a portable heal machine". It's not possible to have a sensible discussion with people who behave in this manner.

    And by the way, I am not "a melee", if that's what you're thinking. I play a single character and TR among all classes. And as I've also said, I do everything each life to both be self-sufficient and to contribute in the most effective way I can. I expect others to do the same.
    A strawman requires a reference to an argument that doesn't exist. You've said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya
    ...When a cleric focuses on trying to kill enemies to the exclusion of his primary class strength, then yes, I think that's foolish. Or I guess, more often when it comes to MMOs, selfish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya
    ...The same reason I don't ask my plumber to mow my lawn or fix my electrical system -- it would be foolish, and a waste of his skills and my resources.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya
    ...It's not being "hung up" to recognize that classes are designed to have certain strengths and weaknesses. If you want the cleric to do the ranging and the fighter to do the trapping and the rogue to do the tanking and the barbarian to do the healing, great -- just say that up front and I'll drop group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya
    ...I want the ranged toon to do the ranging, and the trapper to do the trapping, and the tank to do the tanking, and the healer to do the healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya
    ...
    All the griping from divines IMO falls into the "thou doth protest too much" category...
    There's plenty more, but that's enough to make my point. My advice to you is to keep playing. You will get better, and eventually see how these issues you bring to the table are not actual issues at all. You may even see how attitudes like yours are the primary reason for anon divines, divines that become really picky about who they will group with, and why some abandon the class alltogether.

    There are bad divine players. I've seen them. There are also bad (insert relevant class here) players. If you have a problem with another player, communicate it with them. But bagging the class and people playing them is completely inappropriate.
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  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    In your case, rather rude responses and the use of strawman arguments. To wit:



    I've repeatedly said I do not expect divines to be healbots, I just expect them to contribute heals when necessary in a reasonable manner. You ignore all of those comments and then claim that I am "bagging divines for not being a portable heal machine". It's not possible to have a sensible discussion with people who behave in this manner.

    And by the way, I am not "a melee", if that's what you're thinking. I play a single character and TR among all classes. And as I've also said, I do everything each life to both be self-sufficient and to contribute in the most effective way I can. I expect others to do the same.
    I agree that Taurean is being insulting.

    However, what we are saying is that no one should "expect" anything in particular from a divine - anymore than they should "expect" that a Rogue can trap. If you need a trapper for a quest and a Rogue joins it would be wise to ask if they can trap - maybe they dumped trap skills. By the same token you should not expect divines to heal. FvS are not required to have healing spells and so may have none. Clerics might automatically have heals but if they focused on a different area of their character they might not have good enough heals to, for instance, keep a Barb alive. And while I personally would have some form of resurrect that doesn't mean that any divine will. And that is their right. If you have a party that needs outside heals you should ask the members about healing rather than just expect it to be done.

  6. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    A strawman requires a reference to an argument that doesn't exist. You've said:
    In none of those quotes did I express the sentiment that a divine should be "a portable heal machine". So yes, you were engaging in a strawman argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    However, what we are saying is that no one should "expect" anything in particular from a divine - anymore than they should "expect" that a Rogue can trap.
    This is the core of our disagreement. You think everyone should have no expectations of others based on class and should ask each time if the divine will heal, the rogue will trap, etc. I think that by default the classes mean something and those who won't do what is typical of the class should speak up.

    The reason I think my position makes more sense is that it's more consistent with human nature. Humans make judgments based on past history and gain expectations based on experience. The fact is that the vast majority of divines DO heal and most rogues/arties DO deal with traps, those being the two most important specific "roles" sought in groups. And so people expect players with those as dominant classes to be able to do those things.

    You may not like that, but it is the way it is, and it's not going to change. Most people are not going to ask every divine and every rogue/arty "do you heal/trap?" -- some leaders do, but they are few and far between. Because the answer is usually "yes", and in fact, I've seen players get insulted simply because the leader asked and didn't assume they would play their role!

    The bottom line is this. If you are playing a character who does not fit a traditional role, you have the choice of either making that clear yourself, or saying nothing and then getting upset when people expect you to play that traditional role. Which is more productive?

    ETA: The need for constant healing does not, in and of itself, imply that the group is bad. It is often a sign of poor play, I agree, but the game is deliberately designed with some classes being better at healing than others.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 07-22-2013 at 10:16 AM.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    This is the core of our disagreement. You think everyone should have no expectations of others based on class and should ask each time if the divine will heal, the rogue will trap, etc. I think that by default the classes mean something and those who won't do what is typical of the class should speak up.

    The reason I think my position makes more sense is that it's more consistent with human nature. Humans make judgments based on past history and gain expectations based on experience. The fact is that the vast majority of divines DO heal and most rogues/arties DO deal with traps, those being the two most important specific "roles" sought in groups. And so people expect players with those as dominant classes to be able to do those things.

    You may not like that, but it is the way it is, and it's not going to change. If you are playing a character who does not fit a traditional role, you have the choice of either making that clear yourself, or saying nothing and then getting upset when people expect you to play that traditional role. Which is more productive?
    What you are talking about is called "stereotyping" and isn't tolerated in RL either. You might have certain expectations of a person in RL based on their race or gender but it isn't polite or socially correct to actually act on those expectations. If there is a woman in the room you don't expect her to get the coffee or clean up. And that HAS changed from the way it used to be (so yes, human nature can change). While it might be true (I don't claim to have the data) that most Rogues / Arties do traps, I personally would not simply expect them to do so. There are many reasons why they might not. What if the person was new and put points in something else? And while I think its a good idea for a divine to have at least some healing that doesn't mean it is required and if I needed healing in my party I would ask, not assume.

    And no, I don't agree that it is on the player to announce that they will not be doing those things anymore than I think a woman in the 50s should have to come into a room and announce that she is not going to be cleaning up. O.o

  8. #468
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    In none of those quotes did I express the sentiment that a divine should be "a portable heal machine". So yes, you were engaging in a strawman argument.
    Uh... no. Gl with that though




    This is the core of our disagreement. You think everyone should have no expectations of others based on class and should ask each time if the divine will heal, the rogue will trap, etc. I think that by default the classes mean something and those who won't do what is typical of the class should speak up.

    The reason I think my position makes more sense is that it's more consistent with human nature. Humans make judgments based on past history and gain expectations based on experience. The fact is that the vast majority of divines DO heal and most rogues/arties DO deal with traps, those being the two most important specific "roles" sought in groups. And so people expect players with those as dominant classes to be able to do those things.

    You may not like that, but it is the way it is, and it's not going to change. Most people are not going to ask every divine and every rogue/arty "do you heal/trap?" -- some leaders do, but they are few and far between. Because the answer is usually "yes", and in fact, I've seen players get insulted simply because the leader asked and didn't assume they would play their role!

    The bottom line is this. If you are playing a character who does not fit a traditional role, you have the choice of either making that clear yourself, or saying nothing and then getting upset when people expect you to play that traditional role. Which is more productive?

    ETA: The need for constant healing does not, in and of itself, imply that the group is bad. It is often a sign of poor play, I agree, but the game is deliberately designed with some classes being better at healing than others.
    What more experienced players are trying to tell you is simply that your attitude is the reason you have trouble grouping. And that blaming others for your issue is inappropriate. As an experienced player, you adapt. And you appreciate others for being of help. Your statements imply you are a micromanger. A class/role player. There are plenty more people playing this game that are completely turned off by that notion. Whether you argee or disagree that people play the game differently, you should know that they are.
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  9. #469
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I play both a Cleric and FvS, my opinion on the matter can be summed as the following.

    1. I am not going to chase people around just to heal them

    2. I have no intention of letting a party member die of anything other than their own stupidity

    3. Healing minor boo boos and scratches is a waste of "Party" resources (i.e. if you are at 1/2 your HP and that still puts you at more HP then the next party member and there is no risk of losing those HP in one or two hits, you may not be getting a heal right away - but you will be getting one when I'm free from my current task)

    4. I will use the spell that I deem will save the party resources. If that means a Greater Command or Comet Fall then that will be what is used - I'm aware of my DCs and how effective my spells are from years of experience.

    5. I like it when people come prepared with potions to help keep themselves up - I don't expect you do drink potions to bring you from 1 to Full. I do however, expect that you will use them to give me time to heal you

    But a bad player of a divine is easier to spot than most. In some cases they are the ones yelling for a "hjeal".

    Melee Only types (non-SP users) have many skills that they can use to help mitigate incoming damage. Trip, Stun, and SAP are just a few methods. Some require gear and some require feats to be effective. While I understand the mentality of getting out ahead of a group to kill stuff, it is always best to understand your limits (both character and player) to help avoid unnecessary damage/death.

    I've said this before but I think it bears repeating:

    Every character has multiple abilities to help a party succeed, How many are you using?

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    What you are talking about is called "stereotyping" and isn't tolerated in RL either. You might have certain expectations of a person in RL based on their race or gender but it isn't polite or socially correct to actually act on those expectations. If there is a woman in the room you don't expect her to get the coffee or clean up. And that HAS changed from the way it used to be (so yes, human nature can change). While it might be true (I don't claim to have the data) that most Rogues / Arties do traps, I personally would not simply expect them to do so. There are many reasons why they might not. What if the person was new and put points in something else? And while I think its a good idea for a divine to have at least some healing that doesn't mean it is required and if I needed healing in my party I would ask, not assume.

    And no, I don't agree that it is on the player to announce that they will not be doing those things anymore than I think a woman in the 50s should have to come into a room and announce that she is not going to be cleaning up. O.o
    I don't really wanna be part of this useless discussion so that'll be my only comment. Anyway I don't see how you can go so far into this when it's clear to see that there are only 2 different ways to see this.

    I think it's fair to have expectations related to the class or the role. I mean, it's not that a, say, FVS or Cleric has to heal... I know how strong they are CC/DPS wise but it is fair to think they will. And that is based on the fact that a majority of people playing those classes are smart and GOOD enought to realize that it's easy for them to do so, having access to all the heal spells. I'd say same with a trapper. If it's a good player playing it, expect them to heal/trap. Now if he's bad, just don't expect anything.

    So yeah... they won't always do it, neither do they need to do it, but I think I would expect them to do so more than to not do so. Having played 4 FVS lives and 3 1/2 cleric over times, I don't see how I could restrain myself to not do what has to be done to ensure no one dies when I have all the tools to do it effortlessly.

    Using everything that your class has to offer to maximize overall efficiency is just... what a good player do. So the argument about Cleric / FVS don't NEED to heal... I will agree. But if they don't when it's needed, it's just bad playing to me even though I would understand someone not doing it in the shape of the game today.

    Edit: And if you really don't wanna heal, neither NEED to do so, rush ahead and throw BBs, getting all the agro. That ain't too hard either... just not so much fun for the rest of the group. Oh wait, that's why all the divine solos .

    Edit2: I'd say a healer that can but won't heal is pretty much trying to sell the point that its so easy to be self sufficient that even if you aren't he won't heal you. Because you should be self sufficient, it's the only way to do it.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-22-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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  11. #471
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Indeed, they were the only ones being accepted cause the party leader was a noob

    99% of the game does not require any specific class to be completed easily, for the remaining 1% having specific classes might help a lot but it's not even mandatory.
    Reading and understanding LFMs should be reciprocated by those who demand it. Being a noob has nothing to do with having a preferred playstyle. If divines are going to carry on about people joining their BYOH groups and not being able to heal themselves, then they should understand that joining a "healer needed" group and then not healing makes them as big of a noob as people joining their byoh groups and not being self sufficient.

    Deeming the party leader a noob due to something specifically stated in an LFM and then joining said group with the intent to screw up the way the leader wants to run things, is a shortcoming of the joiner, and not the leader.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #472
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    ETA: The need for constant healing does not, in and of itself, imply that the group is bad. It is often a sign of poor play, I agree, but the game is deliberately designed with some classes being better at healing than others.
    The need of constant healing IS a clear sign that the group/player is really bad. It has nothing to do with classes either; there are fighters and barbarians that might need a couple of heals per quests, then there are fleshy sorcs that would die in 5 seconds unless you are spamming all your heals on them.

    Bad players are bad regardless of the class they are playing. People needing another players attached to them to survive in a quest are bad players: everyone can play the way he wants to have fun, just stay away from groups that clearly ask to be at least self sufficient.
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  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I play both a Cleric and FvS, my opinion on the matter can be summed as the following.

    1. I am not going to chase people around just to heal them

    2. I have no intention of letting a party member die of anything other than their own stupidity

    3. Healing minor boo boos and scratches is a waste of "Party" resources (i.e. if you are at 1/2 your HP and that still puts you at more HP then the next party member and there is no risk of losing those HP in one or two hits, you may not be getting a heal right away - but you will be getting one when I'm free from my current task)

    4. I will use the spell that I deem will save the party resources. If that means a Greater Command or Comet Fall then that will be what is used - I'm aware of my DCs and how effective my spells are from years of experience.

    5. I like it when people come prepared with potions to help keep themselves up - I don't expect you do drink potions to bring you from 1 to Full. I do however, expect that you will use them to give me time to heal you

    But a bad player of a divine is easier to spot than most. In some cases they are the ones yelling for a "hjeal".

    Melee Only types (non-SP users) have many skills that they can use to help mitigate incoming damage. Trip, Stun, and SAP are just a few methods. Some require gear and some require feats to be effective. While I understand the mentality of getting out ahead of a group to kill stuff, it is always best to understand your limits (both character and player) to help avoid unnecessary damage/death.

    I've said this before but I think it bears repeating:

    Every character has multiple abilities to help a party succeed, How many are you using?
    Yep, this is the classic.

  14. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Edit2: I'd say a healer that can but won't heal is pretty much trying to sell the point that its so easy to be self sufficient that even if you aren't he won't heal you. Because you should be self sufficient, it's the only way to do it.
    If a character is built as a healer then it definitely would be a waste if they refused to heal. I think you mean divine. And that right there is the problem - people look at a divine class and automatically think "healer". One does not equal the other and you should determine if the divine in your party is, in fact, built as a healer if you really need one.
    Last edited by HAL; 07-22-2013 at 11:40 AM.

  15. #475
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    Default Was a D&D MMO ever a good idea?

    I see one thing popping up over and over in alot of peoples comments. You should just play solo or stick with a static group. Pugging is the foundation stone for a good MMO imo, but not since DDOs first month has it ever really been fun to do so here. I still recall my first hesitant group experience to get through the water works back when we had to to get access to the market. Up till then my rogue/pal/ranger was holding his own through alot of quests that now exist tweeked on korthos. I recall being surprised by people talking, and got my own settings turned on, but also soon relized how much this would hurt RPing something I had enjoyed doing on my other MMOs where pure text was the standard and guild voice the exception used for truly challenging content. I was a always lightly in character RPer from City of Heroes Virtue server for those familair with that game and server specific community, but it was truly amazing being on a server with typically as many as 30,000 people logged on to it and the vast majority of them all RPing to some extent. So I set aside my RP inclinations and focussed on my character building, I like alot of dice chuckers can spend days making a single starting character in build and concept for a table top game, hell in a current upcoming group Im thinking of joining ive already rolled up and tossed aside about a dozen very promising characters.

    I like alot soon joined a guild, and soon thereafter left it due to its members RL connections leading to drama I had no interest in, and expectations of me in game that I felt costs me more then any return. Plus I frankly like pugging I like meeting knew people every day on MMO, and in the first months it was fun to.

    Then things began to change, I would say around the 3 month mark as new comers began to get picked on by older players, hazed with traps by being brought in on max dif for their first run, and ofcourse good ol grease cast under them during such. Some new players took it in stride, the frat boy types, while the actual D&D players found it so in poor taste as I myself did, that they just left the game. I stuck on for another 5 months that first year, but it only got worse, my ignore list reached max in no time flat like in no other MMO before or since. DDO was going to the cliques, the bromance fueled brotherly love work together for good natured types who lasted .06 seconds in RPGA meat grinder adventures. The fact is for most old dice chuckers, the kinds of pranks that constitue hazing/griefing for first timers is beyond abhorrent. its the epitome of loathesome human behavior that we would wish treated with complete intolerance by the whole of human civilization.

    Eventually the griefing got boring though, and then came the outright xenophobic grouping, with zero acceptance of black sheep classes, rogues became obsolete for the vast majority of quests as people twitched/buffed their way through the traps, and all people saw them for was traps especially with undead/constructs making up about 70% of the games earlier monster content. Soon most groups would just be 4 barbs,a cc arcane, and a nanny bot, and people like me who liked pugging for randomness found ourselves spending hours with empty lfms or soloing. Soloing ofcourse was damn hard back in the day, and only PnP players who already had alot of tricks when it came to knowing how to make an actual adventurer rather then a cog in a wheel had any chance at it. We also found places to farm chests to sustain our needs, I recall working the 3 giant caves in threnal solo back in the days of the lvl 10 cap on my entire stable of toons each week, lots of portable holes seemed to drop from them i recall.

    And now in this very thread, from pretty much every faction I see the same thing hurled at each other, well if you prefer to play a divine like this you should just solo, oh you prefer to play a pure dps so you should just solo with a hirling or stick to a static group, that pugs are just a PITA and not worth the effort, so just solo if you can unless you have friends you know can handle it. Old D&D games like NWN 1 and 2 and the baldurs gates had ways to play with others, specifically known friends usually, and always where more fun for it, D&D is great social time with friends, and endless frustration when a hard style of play is not set like is found back in the hayday of RPGA run games where you brought your A game or you spent more time rolling up fresh characters then playing them. But by A game I dont mean being a cog, or just using a min maxxed build, but by making a character who wanted to SURVIVE his chosen life profession as an adventurer, to be Indiana Jones, Jackie Chan, James Bond all rolled into one or you are dead the first time the DM uses something classic like random location tp traps to scatter the party to the far reaches of the dungeon into completely unknown and unexpected challenges and foes.

    I am just starting to really think D&D cant be a good MMO because it just is not well suited to pugging. and for me pugging is the thing MMO need to stick best to make it fun enough to keep attracting new players to make up for the ones who get bored/frustrated/disgusted and leave.

  16. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    If a character is built as a healer then it definitely would be a waste if they refused to heal. I think you mean divine. And that right there is the problem - people look at a divine class and automatically think "healer". One does not equal the other and you should determine if the divine in your party is, in fact, built as a healer if you really need one.
    Yep, meant divine.

    Not sure if you ever played one of those... but if you did I think you will agree that it's hard to not build a divine with healing capabilities... since you get all the metas for DPS anyway: Quicken, Empower and Maximize. Also unless you put APs in improve skills, you have more than enought to put at least some in the healing tree... and you most likely will because you will be healing yourself. So gimping your healing is gimping your self sufficiency... Are you gonna argue that we shouldn't be as much self sufficient as possible as well? Luckily it's a 2 for 1 when you're on a divine, healing yourself and other as a bonus for the same AP/Feat cost.

    It's more a question of they won't do it and not they can't do it usually. Could see a melee cleric telling me i'm wrong... but he's that... a melee cleric and most likely not pure.

    Had to add this, really.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  17. #477
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=FranOhmsford;5046249]Yet still you don't even put your main/s in your signature?

    If you're NOT willing to put your own characters on show in your forum posts what makes you think you have the right to belittle other people's?

    I have a large number of alts over multiple servers - I've listed as many of them as possible in my signature - before the forum update.
    Since finally getting back on to the forums I've found the Biography on my forum account and added EVERY SINGLE ONE of my characters on this account there!
    I haven't found out how to update my signature though - Perhaps you can't either?


    What I object to is that I can see the player's characters in his signature {you know the player you're attacking - and don't say you're not attacking while implicitly saying you already know what his character is but just want him to come out with it!}.

    You can see his characters too {and as you're someone who has had a major presence on these forums for at least as long as myself if not longer you should know that you can easily find out much about those characters by checking YourDDO.

    QUOTE]


    Thelanis
    Talonkage: Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5(E5) My seven year old, first character with 4520 Favor.
    Blacksilk: Wiz20(E2)
    Missgadget: Art20(E3)
    Phorester: Drd20(E5)
    Angelofmercy: Fvs20 (Past life Clr)
    Blacktiger: Rg11/Rog6 (past life Rog. Was Rog14/Rgr6)
    Deltari: Rgr12
    Dragonkhan: Rgr2/Mnk6
    Gladeshadow: Rgr3/Wiz7
    Indigofox: Drd11
    Neanderthal: Rgr16
    Ptalonia: Brd1/Rgr5/Wiz1
    Ptiger: Rgr8
    Ptigress: Rgr7
    Ravenika: Brd11(past lives Pal and Rgr.. was Pal18Rog2)(formerly named Tsunamikhan)
    Sapharri: Rgr2/Drd7
    Valkk: Mnk20/E2
    Violetangel: Rgr4/Fvs3
    {Second Acount (SA) } Khatari: Rgr20
    (SA) Ptalon: Rog12 (past life Rgr, Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5)

    Argonesson
    Blackfeather: Ftr18/Rgr1/Wiz1/E1
    Bowgue: Rog7
    Cfour: Rgr20
    Drkpriestess: Clr15
    Kagemaru: Rgr20
    Katari: Rgr11/Brd5
    Khanari: Sor20/E1
    Owlina: Rgr7
    Phoxshadow: Drd7
    Ptalon: Rgr1/Rog1/Wiz5
    Ptiger: Ftr3/Rgr5
    Saphari: Rgr8
    Shieldknight: Ftr13
    Talonkhan: Rgr17
    Tasmia: Rog20/E2
    (SA) Xhebra: Rgr4

    Sarlona
    Khania: Rgr4/Art3
    Phantomheart: Rog9
    Ptalon: Rgr1/Rog1/Wiz5
    Pterror: Pal2/Sor13
    Ravenika: Drd7
    Saphari: Rgr11/Clr9
    Sapharri: Rgr3
    Snowprincess: Brb17
    Talonkhan: Ftr6
    Tomahawk: Rgr8
    Xephyri: Rgr7
    (SA) Xhebra: Rg4
    Khyber
    Articfoxx: Clr1/Rg4/Mnk1
    Knockturnia: Rgr7
    Korvala: Clr5
    Ptalon: Rgr1/Rog1/Wiz5
    Saphari: Rgr19
    (SA) Xhebra: Rgr4

    Ghallanda
    Arconia: Pal2/Rgr3
    Khaelin: Rgr3/Sor2
    Maidtofight: Rgr7
    Mooneagle: Rgr4
    Ptalia: Art7
    Ptalon: Rg2/Rog1/Wiz1
    Ptyphoon: Rgr4
    Quail: Rtr4/Pal3/Rgr11
    Saphari: Brb3/Rgr5
    Sapharri: Rgr7
    (SA) Greyrabbit: Wiz7

    Cannith
    Cfour: Wiz4
    Greyrabbit: Wiz2
    Kharabus: Pal15
    Ptalon: Rgr2/Rog1/Wiz1
    Quail: Rgr18
    Saphari: Rgr7
    Shadowkite: Rgr6
    (SA) Xhebra: Rgr4

    Orien
    Axamillion: Rgr17
    Cfour: Wiz4
    Kagemaru: Mnk7
    Ptalon: Rgr4/Rog2/Wiz1
    Pteradon: Pal15
    (SA) Xhebra: Rgr4

    Wayfinder
    Nymphalina: Rgr7
    Ptalon: Rgr10/Rog1/Wiz5
    Rhazor: Pal1/Rgr14
    (SA) Xhebra: Rgr4


    Hope that helps anyone who wanted that information.
    Many of those toons are obviously vet 4 and 7 characters… but some of the lvl 4 and 7s started at lvl 1.
    Some are obviously Iconics.
    I used a MOTU stone of xp on every server.
    I’ve deleted dozens over the years, mostly from the second account when I realized that no longer made sense. (technically, my Daughter has a few toons still, but I see no need to list those.)
    Like I said, I have tried it all. I have been playing since about two months after the game went live.
    I obviously prefer Rangers to any other class. …. But I am quite proud of my Rogue on Argo and how I play her. I do not enjoy playing healers. I find Brbs very limiting. And have struggled to build a Ftr I like as well.


    Yes, I have had a significant forum presense. I have also listed my capped character in my sig in the past. I have listed my main in my sig and in many threads in the past.

    I have not attempted to find out what class he plays.
    I did not ask him so that I could critisize his toon/build... etc. and I do not keep a blackilist. He has said nothing that makes me not want to group with him.

    But yes.. I suspect he plays a melee toon that is not self healing.
    And I would bet that he does not play a healer type.

    Which was my point all along.

    I might respect a healer player who takes the viewpoint that Clerics/FVSs should heal other people.
    I do not respect (the viewpoint of) melee guys who expect OTHER PEOPLE to heal THEM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Yep, meant divine.

    Not sure if you ever played one of those... but if you did I think you will agree that it's hard to not build a divine with healing capabilities... since you get all the metas for DPS anyway: Quicken, Empower and Maximize. Also unless you put APs in improve skills, you have more than enought to put at least some in the healing tree... and you most likely will because you will be healing yourself. So gimping your healing is gimping your self sufficiency... Are you gonna argue that we shouldn't be as much self sufficient as possible as well? Luckily it's a 2 for 1 when you're on a divine, healing yourself and other as a bonus for the same AP/Feat cost.

    It's more a question of they won't do it and not they can't do it usually. Could see a melee cleric telling me i'm wrong... but he's that... a melee cleric and most likely not pure.

    Had to add this, really.
    For a cleric I would agree with you. But as I said earlier there is a big difference between having enough in healing to heal yourself and maybe toss out a little healing here and there, and having enough healing to keep up a Barb who is tanking a raid. Again, since you don't know how the other character is built, if you need a certain role it is better not to assume but to ask.

  19. #479
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    snip
    If you think pugging is bad from how people treat each other here, you should really play some other mmo's. You mentioned one, on an rp server that was probably an exception. Most mmo's involve people insulting each other with terms that would get me an instant forum ban the moment they zone into a dungeon together. DDO probably actually has the least toxic environment in an mmo that I've seen.

  20. #480
    Community Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    ...
    Because in DDO, everyone can join anything, even beyond their capabilities just because they want to. There aren't many games that allow this and even less healty ones. Most of the games are made so everyone pretty much HAS to contribute to a certain level (depending on difficulty) to ensure a win and in DDO, this is not the case. Here, you can get carried for 20 lives in a row just by joining the LFMs popping.

    It's the bad taste of being mixed with people that aren't playing the game the same way or on the same level that lead to this over time. Just take a second to compare to other MMOs mechanics when it comes to grouping and end game if you've played a couple other.

    Like I said before, with DDO's main focus being TRing (not for all... but it's what is keeping the game alive I think), the elite difficulty is pretty much endgame, but at every level instead of just when you're maxed. So in DDO, endgame players are being mixed with anyone every single day, until they can't take it anymore. That's how you kill pugging.

    Edit: Talking about elite/end game only.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-22-2013 at 12:00 PM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

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