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  1. #361
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If that's true there has been a shift in the population since I was willing to pug a divine. Last time I was willing to pug one I threw a greater command on some mino's in framework when it first came out and had the two barbs freak out that they were at half health instead of full and I wasted a global cooldown on something other than healing them. That's the last time i was willing to even take a divine into a pug byoh or no.
    all I know, I don't see 95% of the horror stories posted here that pugs demand only heals from healers. there aren't many healers joining pug groups and players are adapting to that by either playing a self sufficient class or bringing a hire. I think its bonus if im in a group when I get a heal from a cleric or fvs. ive learned, and I think a lot of other players are doing the same thing who are not new, to learn to take care of themselves and I see more help from rangers, bards, paladins today than I ever saw before. there will always be some bad apples in the bunch, but I think there are more players who are a little more up to date with the versatility of healers.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    This is why I said "easy for a new player to understand". The current method of abbreviations and acronyms is not new player friendly. If many of these "common" terms were added to the LFM system so that a person putting up a LFM could choose the terms they want and then a new player could mouse-over those terms to see an explanation, I think that would help new players stay out of groups that are not a fit. I think the LFM system should also have some kind of rating the creator can use to indicate the level of play expected in the group. That rating could also have a mouseover tooltip to explain.
    The problem with that is that Turbine would have to add it and I don't see them adding things that cause players not to hit up LFMs. They seem much more likely to do the opposite and hope the group compensates for the weak links that join. The problem with this is they don't seem interested in thinking about such things while developing other areas of the game. So we end up with a situation where, for example; they want the group to back down to hard for the sake of those weak links, but their Bravery Bonus system give an incentive not to.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    They do?
    They do?
    They do?
    I assume this was a failed attempt to be clever.

    Yes, people generally do expect people in many classes to play their roles. If you apply for a group needing a trapper with your rogue and then refuse to do traps, expect to get booted at the first opportunity. Same with arcanes that don't CC when it is needed. And so forth.

    I know a very experienced player who had trouble last life because he was a melee with more sorc levels than anything else and people freaked when they saw him swinging an axe. He even said he had trouble getting into groups (even though he is an excellent player).

    If people want to play divines and not heal then they need to accept the importance of that role and make sure the rest of the team knows that they don't plan to fill it. Then they can decide if they want that individual taking up a space or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    You have to remember how the game has transformed over the years. At launch, the party would stick together and explore as not everyone had figured out the easiest and shortest way. Add in that people did not have piles of heal pots and twink gear and you have the “dungeon crawl” game that many want.

    Fast forward and many people have millions of plat to throw on pots, twink gear and could give you an exact map layout of any quest.
    I understand that, but contrary to popular opinion, teamwork isn't dead. When I want to solo, I solo; when I go into a group, then I try to do what I can to ensure the group survives, and that everyone has fun.

    Last life I was an artificer and on more than one occasion found myself putting away my heavy damage bow for my paralyzer to help the melees, or even helping out with the healing. One guy I ran several quests with in FR was an offensive druid who, when it was clear we weren't going to get a healer, went and re-specced himself to heal the party.

    These are the people that make parties great. The self-absorbed people who only care about themselves and what they want to do and with ensuring they run ahead of everyone and rack up the most kills -- they should be soloing.

  4. #364
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Please don't group with me. Ever. If your barb is trying to draw aggro, he is a nuisance - and no, he is not good at it. Single target heals and cures will approach an efficiency of maybe 10 hp/sp. Multi-target heals, auras, radiant bursts, and cures can approach 50 hp/sp. Tanking has a purpose (rarely), but it's almost always a 1v1 situation, and "drawing" aggro is a simple matter of keeping it. Not to mention that the paladin who MUST be in your party (according to your mentality, not mine) will be much better at it.
    curious as to what you think a barb should do than. any decently built barb cant help to draw agro while dpsing. FB barbs are supposed to be built for one thing and one thing only. agro comes along with it. that's why its important to kill faster than it requires you to need heals. if you think a barb should just get on the back of mobs and not grab agro, than I would question your knowledge of the class. sorry.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If that's true there has been a shift in the population since I was willing to pug a divine. Last time I was willing to pug one I threw a greater command on some mino's in framework when it first came out and had the two barbs freak out that they were at half health instead of full and I wasted a global cooldown on something other than healing them. That's the last time i was willing to even take a divine into a pug byoh or no.
    I think there's nothing wrong with a divine pushing back in this sort of situation. A firm but polite word to the unwise can do wonders. Self-centered melees who think you're their hireling often need only a quick reminder that unlike them, you can easily recall and do it by yourself.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Yet a ranger (or mostly-ranger) with Hide in Plain Sight, Sprint Boost, and Camouflage will sneak better and possibly faster than your rogue...




    Once again, a mostly-ranger with Wild Instincts may be better at it.



    Is your rogue a mechanic? You going to be the primary trapper with my mutt mechanic (only 7 rogue levels) in the party, who rolls 80s for disarming without even trying?



    My cleric heals, slaps undead (which is NOT a healing duty - it draws aggro), instakills, CCs, melees, and throws DoTs and AoEs. She also uses AoV, has a high UMD, and has the ability to get to hard-to-reach places.



    Please don't group with me. Ever. If your barb is trying to draw aggro, he is a nuisance - and no, he is not good at it. Single target heals and cures will approach an efficiency of maybe 10 hp/sp. Multi-target heals, auras, radiant bursts, and cures can approach 50 hp/sp. Tanking has a purpose (rarely), but it's almost always a 1v1 situation, and "drawing" aggro is a simple matter of keeping it. Not to mention that the paladin who MUST be in your party (according to your mentality, not mine) will be much better at it.



    Ignorance is no excuse for pushing your agenda on others. Just because you haven't figured out how to play the game well yet does not give you equal voting rights. The game needs to be designed around people who KNOW how the game works, even if they choose not to take advantage.
    Since I am not pushing any 'agenda' on anyone, you must be confessing your own lack of excuse, since a player as über and knowledgeable as yourself wouldn't dream of doing anything so noob as insulting another player for how they choose to build and play their toons, right?
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  7. #367
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I assume this was a failed attempt to be clever.

    Yes, people generally do expect people in many classes to play their roles. If you apply for a group needing a trapper with your rogue and then refuse to do traps, expect to get booted at the first opportunity. Same with arcanes that don't CC when it is needed. And so forth.
    Problem with your examples are:

    -rangers are not great with ranged combat. elven fighters are much better, artificers outclass both. Rangers excel at two weapon fighting, not archery.
    -Paladins are usually better tanks than fighters.
    -Sorcs and wizards are usually equal CC, as most of wizards ar palemasters, which are killing as much as sorcs are DPSing. Even if wizard is an archmage, that equals just 2 DC more, which, in heroics is irrelevant, in EE target DCs are so high its also irrelevant, as they're unreachable for most of playerbase, and in EH CC is completly unimportant, as everything (except bosses, who BTW are CC immune) dies way too fast to notice.
    -traps/locks are not real roles, all it takes is decent int and 1 lvl splash. You can get any trap in game, while doing anything else you want.

    This is not a holy trinity wow style game, no matter how much you want it to be.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'm going to take a guess here and say that 99% of divines that don't heal, don't want to be divines but are just on the road to completionist. They probably don't actually like the class or the typical role of that class.
    As having both a CLR and FVS, I think you way off base. For everything except harder raids and EE I always have BYOH in the LFM. Why? Because I don't want to babysit people. They people who have some for of self healing (Healing Spring, Cocoon, SF pots, DDO store pots, heal scroll, wands, whatever) also tend be more aware and more versatile. Hence more of an asset to my group.

  9. #369
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    As having both a CLR and FVS, I think you way off base. For everything except harder raids and EE I always have BYOH in the LFM. Why? Because I don't want to babysit people. They people who have some for of self healing (Healing Spring, Cocoon, SF pots, DDO store pots, heal scroll, wands, whatever) also tend be more aware and more versatile. Hence more of an asset to my group.
    Yeah the thing is for everyone that says that, I've personally talked to several that have said that they hate healing and just want the past life. My percentage may be off but .... Now personally I have no problem with anything you say, all my toons self heal, and I won't pug a divine byoh or not.

  10. #370
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    curious as to what you think a barb should do than. any decently built barb cant help to draw agro while dpsing. FB barbs are supposed to be built for one thing and one thing only. agro comes along with it. that's why its important to kill faster than it requires you to need heals. if you think a barb should just get on the back of mobs and not grab agro, than I would question your knowledge of the class. sorry.
    Or, you could get two sufficient players beating on a mob instead of just one barb and a healer. You can play your barb however you like, but I highly doubt that he will put out the DPS as two other players that do not require a baby sitter.
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  11. #371
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Ignorance is no excuse for pushing your agenda on others. Just because you haven't figured out how to play the game well yet does not give you equal voting rights. The game needs to be designed around people who KNOW how the game works, even if they choose not to take advantage.
    What a condescendingly fat load of carp. No amount of ignorance or (supposed) knowledge is an excuse for pushing your agenda on others. As there's nothing to vote on, there's no rights to be had or lost. It's a very open game design, capable of accommodating soloists, tank & spankers and everything in-between. We only get this friction when playstyles collide (usually only happens in pugs or the forum) and people start telling eachother "you're doing it wrong."

    Well, for my moment of potential hypocrisy - here ya go: anyone who says there's only one way to play and the game needs to be designed around their interpretation of how the game works, is wrong.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  12. #372
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Or, you could get two sufficient players beating on a mob instead of just one barb and a healer. You can play your barb however you like, but I highly doubt that he will put out the DPS as two other players that do not require a baby sitter.
    playing a barb doesn't necessarily mean you need a babysitter. in todays DDO where self sufficiency is crammed down every class throat, playing a barb means learning to play with pots and killing faster than the mob can kill you. not all are cut out to play that way, but I have learned to play with pots.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yeah the thing is for everyone that says that, I've personally talked to several that have said that they hate healing and just want the past life. My percentage may be off but .... Now personally I have no problem with anything you say, all my toons self heal, and I won't pug a divine byoh or not.
    How do you go from saying you've talked to several people to that equating to 90+%? And you percentage might be off? Maybe it's 99% of the people you know.

    I'm always amazed at people who just make up numbers to support an argument they are making.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    What a condescendingly fat load of carp. No amount of ignorance or (supposed) knowledge is an excuse for pushing your agenda on others. As there's nothing to vote on, there's no rights to be had or lost. It's a very open game design, capable of accommodating soloists, tank & spankers and everything in-between. We only get this friction when playstyles collide (usually only happens in pugs or the forum) and people start telling eachother "you're doing it wrong."

    Well, for my moment of potential hypocrisy - here ya go: anyone who says there's only one way to play and the game needs to be designed around their interpretation of how the game works, is wrong.
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  15. #375
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    You have four character in your sig; I am very curious what their classes are....
    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I don't know why you bothered if you weren't actually going to answer the question. And I won't put words in Talon's mouth but I know that I always wonder if the people who state that certain characters should fill an expected role (in DDO - Healers and Tanks) have ever played such a character.
    No Characters in either of your sigs {no sigs at all}!

    Try looking those characters he has in his sig up on YourDDO perhaps rather than attempting to attack him with no knowledge!

  16. #376
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    What a condescendingly fat load of carp. No amount of ignorance or (supposed) knowledge is an excuse for pushing your agenda on others. As there's nothing to vote on, there's no rights to be had or lost. It's a very open game design, capable of accommodating soloists, tank & spankers and everything in-between. We only get this friction when playstyles collide (usually only happens in pugs or the forum) and people start telling eachother "you're doing it wrong."

    Well, for my moment of potential hypocrisy - here ya go: anyone who says there's only one way to play and the game needs to be designed around their interpretation of how the game works, is wrong.
    Look at the name of the thread. If you want to make your FB Barb, do it. If you want to make nay build (no matter how bad it is), do it. I nor anyone else is standing in the way of you playing, making or doing whatever you like.

    I will say this though. If you join a BYOH, and you are playing your non-sufficient build, you are doing it wrong. Not because you built a “bad toon”, but you are not wanted in the party. I could care less what your play style is, but if you bring your hang-ups to my party, I will be more than glad to tell you a thing or three.
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  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    How do you go from saying you've talked to several people to that equating to 90+%? And you percentage might be off? Maybe it's 99% of the people you know.

    I'm always amazed at people who just make up numbers to support an argument they are making.
    To be fair, he did call it a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'm going to take a guess here and say that 99% of divines that don't heal, don't want to be divines but are just on the road to completionist. They probably don't actually like the class or the typical role of that class.
    Last edited by Tscheuss; 07-21-2013 at 05:58 PM.
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  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    To be fair, he did call it a guess.
    With that I could say, and it would be "fair": I have 2 friends who are (X) and robbed a spaceship. So I am going to take a guess and say that 99% of (X) people rob spaceships. And that's ok? C'mon!

  19. #379
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    How do you go from saying you've talked to several people to that equating to 90+%? And you percentage might be off? Maybe it's 99% of the people you know.

    I'm always amazed at people who just make up numbers to support an argument they are making.
    I think you might be misplacing your anger a bit, since I have no issue with byoh and tend to post my groups that way. Yeah my number may be off and an exagerration, but my experience has been that divines that never throw heals don't actually want to play the class they just want the pl and are going thru it as fast as they can. I have zero issue with this, all my comment was is an explanation to some people of why some divines, (and my experience most) post byoh.

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I think you might be misplacing your anger a bit, since I have no issue with byoh and tend to post my groups that way. Yeah my number may be off and an exagerration, but my experience has been that divines that never throw heals don't actually want to play the class they just want the pl and are going thru it as fast as they can. I have zero issue with this, all my comment was is an explanation to some people of why some divines, (and my experience most) post byoh.
    There's no anger but what you (and many other people) fail to realize is, this is how people (in real life), classes (here) become pigeon-holed. I understand that you were only talking about your relatively small sample size but your post insinuated much more.

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