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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Just the two?


    Let me amend my previous comment.


    Maybe we can get down to ONE live server by 2014.

  2. #342
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    I've never understood why it is that people expect the sorceror to blast stuff, the ranger to pick off enemies up high, the wizard to CC, the fighter to tank the boss and damage him down, the rogue to pick locks.. but ask a cleric or FVS to heal, and boy, everyone freaks out.

    This is a team-based game with roles to be filled. Healers are often necessary and there are classes that are tailored for it. If you want to play one of those classes and not fill that role, fine, but you better contribute solidly in other ways, because if not, you're just taking up space. And most divines who choose not to heal simply aren't as good at whatever it is they are doing as someone playing a class designed for it.

  3. #343
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seere View Post
    Maybe we can get down to ONE live server by 2014.
    You think there is a shortage of people like you? When I started playing, fully half of the game was filled with people just like you. They all wanted to turn every cleric into a healbot and actually got MAD at me when my sorcerer used a heal scroll on the cleric because he was tripped and getting killed.

    Your attitude is nothing new. It's the same-old stagnant Holy Trinity (Tanks, Heals, DPS) that has failed countless times now. And no, D&D was not the inventor of the Holy Trinity - that was a purely MMO invention that was just as bad an idea at the time of implementation as it is now.

    YOUR system is what killed DDO the first time. Just because you didn't stick around to see the carnage doesn't give you a pedestal to start proselytizing your failed religion. Especially when you don't have any rational arguments backup your sermons.
    Last edited by Raithe; 07-21-2013 at 04:08 PM.

  4. #344
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've never understood why it is that people expect the sorceror to blast stuff, the ranger to pick off enemies up high, the wizard to CC, the fighter to tank the boss and damage him down, the rogue to pick locks.. but ask a cleric or FVS to heal, and boy, everyone freaks out.

    This is a team-based game with roles to be filled. Healers are often necessary and there are classes that are tailored for it. If you want to play one of those classes and not fill that role, fine, but you better contribute solidly in other ways, because if not, you're just taking up space. And most divines who choose not to heal simply aren't as good at whatever it is they are doing as someone playing a class designed for it.
    I'm going to take a guess here and say that 99% of divines that don't heal, don't want to be divines but are just on the road to completionist. They probably don't actually like the class or the typical role of that class.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I've never understood the mentality that Clerics & FvS somehow have some special burden to heal others when so many other classes have self-healing and other-healing options as well.

    There is no such obligation.



    Except those who try to pretend certain classes automatically have certain obligations.



    Yes, it is, if you're only asking Clr/FvS, and not asking EVERY SINGLE OTHER CLASS that could also be killing, CC, or healing.

    Why isn't your "should have played a Sorc" Sorc preventing/minimzing damage with HIS spells? And healing, too? Or the Ranger, or Monk, or Druid, or Bard, or Arti, with their abilities?

    Expecting Clr/FvS to heal and not expecting others to heal is just being a <omitted due to forum rules>. Everyone should be contributing, regardless of class icon.
    A rogue that refuses to trap.
    A melee that refuses to smash.
    An arcane that refuses to cast.
    A divine that refuses to heal.

    Players have a right to play as they wish. If they wish to not play to their characters' strengths, that is their choice. Fact: certain classes are better suited to certain roles. Opinion: MMO's are about teamwork, and a team works best when roles are met by those best matched.

    By all means, hammer that screw into place, if that is how you roll. This game allows great diversity in builds and playstyle. Just know that there will always be plenty who say, "You don't WHAT?!?"
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  6. #346
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've never understood why it is that people expect the sorceror to blast stuff, the ranger to pick off enemies up high, the wizard to CC, the fighter to tank the boss and damage him down, the rogue to pick locks.. but ask a cleric or FVS to heal, and boy, everyone freaks out.
    this is so close to the truth it isn't funny.

  7. #347
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've never understood why it is that people expect the ranger to pick off enemies up high
    They do?
    , the wizard to CC,
    They do?
    the fighter to tank the boss
    They do?
    This is a team-based game with roles to be filled.
    In 1% of quests, maybe
    Healers are often necessary
    Where? Oh, right, in 1% of game (or less)
    and there are classes that are tailored for it. If you want to play one of those classes and not fill that role, fine, but you better contribute solidly in other ways, because if not, you're just taking up space. And most divines who choose not to heal simply aren't as good at whatever it is they are doing as someone playing a class designed for it.
    There is no class designed to do something, there are builds designed to do something.
    Thats huge difference, its sad people think class=build=role.
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    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  8. #348
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've never understood why it is that people expect the sorceror to blast stuff, the ranger to pick off enemies up high, the wizard to CC, the fighter to tank the boss and damage him down, the rogue to pick locks.. but ask a cleric or FVS to heal, and boy, everyone freaks out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    this is so close to the truth it isn't funny.
    It's not the truth though. Sorc's blasting, rangers shooting, fighters meleeing are examples of dps which most people find more fun. CC is something that makes it easier to kill not only for the wizard but for the rest of the group, rogue skills only take a small amount of time in some dungeons and in general isn't a big deal to most but some still don't like it as they'll just run thru anyways. Healing is something where the people that want you to play nanny freak out on you the moment you cast something other than a heal on them, the people that don't heal don't find it fun to take responsibility for your fun. Healing is like trying to be a parent suddenly transported into the end of the lord of the flies.

  9. #349
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've never understood why it is that people expect the sorceror to blast stuff, the ranger to pick off enemies up high, the wizard to CC, the fighter to tank the boss and damage him down, the rogue to pick locks.. but ask a cleric or FVS to heal, and boy, everyone freaks out.

    This is a team-based game with roles to be filled. Healers are often necessary and there are classes that are tailored for it. If you want to play one of those classes and not fill that role, fine, but you better contribute solidly in other ways, because if not, you're just taking up space. And most divines who choose not to heal simply aren't as good at whatever it is they are doing as someone playing a class designed for it.
    You have to remember how the game has transformed over the years. At launch, the party would stick together and explore as not everyone had figured out the easiest and shortest way. Add in that people did not have piles of heal pots and twink gear and you have the “dungeon crawl” game that many want.

    Fast forward and many people have millions of plat to throw on pots, twink gear and could give you an exact map layout of any quest.

    A combination of the game becoming easier, people knowing every dungeon, and having access to nearly unlimited resources, this game goes from a “dungeon crawl” to “split up and meet at the end”. After people have been playing for 7+ years, I think it is unrealistic to expect them to spend 30 minutes in garrisons missing pack. Maybe it is just me, but I always take the route of least resistance.

    Turbine can implement any poppycock idea that gets thrown on the boards by people saying the game should be played in a certain way, but the vets will always be one step ahead as they have experience.

    Of topic, but I also see issue with people wanting to eliminate BB. Being premium, I look forward to the 800/tp I get per life. If Turbine were to stop BB, I would still run quest elite just to get the favor/tp and then maybe do it once or twice on hard to make up for no BB. I imagine that there are others like me that would follow suit. They can get rid of BB, but it will not stop the “elite, BHOY, I loathe you” LFM’s”.
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  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seere View Post
    This thread just sort of sums up 7 years of struggle for DDO to run with the big dogs in the MMO industry.

    New player comes to game.

    New player goes in on elite.

    New player figures cleric implies heals.

    New player gets no heals.

    New player dies.

    New player goes to new game.


    As a practical matter this forum ought to encourage tight class roles, instead of mocking them and allowing any discussion of it to devolve into insult throwing fistfights.

    If the 2 classes best fitted to heal, namely FvS and Cleric, were encouraged to heal, there'd be a hell of a lot more people hanging out in here.

    Don't bother with the 4 paragraph monologue on my close minded, terribad gaming skills. I have read this thread 1,000 times since 2006.

    Keep chasing the individualist, heal thyself through elite mentality...

    Maybe we can get down to 3 live servers by 2014.
    2014? Bah, this game will implode in 2015. The inertia will keep us going that long. This will of course be subject to change, my predictions are based on Turbine's current course right towards the iceberg.

    Regarding new players and their sense of entitlement . . . not my problem. It's Turbine's problem. This game shuts down I get a new hobby, for Turbine it's their money on the line.

    It is simple. People don't like to play healbots. The insane saves of recent updates have made DC casting pointless, people park the FVS.

    Turbine needs to make the game less stupid, people will start playing their FvS again, and they'll toss the gimpy barbarian a heal once in a while.

    Or Turbine can keep EE content ******** and watch the game fail.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-21-2013 at 05:25 PM.

  11. #351
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    They can get rid of BB, but it will not stop the “elite, BHOY, I loathe you” LFM’s”.
    I so need to post lfm's as I loathe all of you in the description for now on.

  12. #352
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's not the truth though. Sorc's blasting, rangers shooting, fighters meleeing are examples of dps which most people find more fun. CC is something that makes it easier to kill not only for the wizard but for the rest of the group, rogue skills only take a small amount of time in some dungeons and in general isn't a big deal to most but some still don't like it as they'll just run thru anyways. Healing is something where the people that want you to play nanny freak out on you the moment you cast something other than a heal on them, the people that don't heal don't find it fun to take responsibility for your fun. Healing is like trying to be a parent suddenly transported into the end of the lord of the flies.
    not true. ive been in plenty of groups where you ask for a heal because you need help or its obvious you need help and because the lfm says BYOH or the FVS/cleric says they melee either gripe because they have to throw a heal or don't do anything to help. it is expected for rogues to do traps, for fighters to melee and bring proper weapons, for casters to blast/cc, rangers to pew pew while meleeing but to ask for a fvs/cleric to throw heals while they dps is like asking if I can pull their tooth out with pliers. there are players who want to be nannyed but a lot of players I come across respect them more than that a know that they need to be self sufficient as well.

  13. #353
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    not true. ive been in plenty of groups where you ask for a heal because you need help or its obvious you need help and because the lfm says BYOH or the FVS/cleric says they melee either gripe because they have to throw a heal or don't do anything to help. it is expected for rogues to do traps, for fighters to melee and bring proper weapons, for casters to blast/cc, rangers to pew pew while meleeing but to ask for a fvs/cleric to throw heals while they dps is like asking if I can pull their tooth out with pliers. there are players who want to be nannyed but a lot of players I come across respect them more than that a know that they need to be self sufficient as well.
    If that's true there has been a shift in the population since I was willing to pug a divine. Last time I was willing to pug one I threw a greater command on some mino's in framework when it first came out and had the two barbs freak out that they were at half health instead of full and I wasted a global cooldown on something other than healing them. That's the last time i was willing to even take a divine into a pug byoh or no.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I don't know why you bothered if you weren't actually going to answer the question. And I won't put words in Talon's mouth but I know that I always wonder if the people who state that certain characters should fill an expected role (in DDO - Healers and Tanks) have ever played such a character.
    Don't know whether I am in the minority or the majority, but that is how I play my characters. My rogue sneaks, finds, traps. My cleric heals the party and slaps undead. My barb kills and draws agro. This is what they are best at, and I built them as party toons.
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  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'm going to take a guess here and say that 99% of divines that don't heal, don't want to be divines but are just on the road to completionist. They probably don't actually like the class or the typical role of that class.
    I wouldn't be surprised. lol
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  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If that's true there has been a shift in the population since I was willing to pug a divine. Last time I was willing to pug one I threw a greater command on some mino's in framework when it first came out and had the two barbs freak out that they were at half health instead of full and I wasted a global cooldown on something other than healing them. That's the last time i was willing to even take a divine into a pug byoh or no.
    If you're good enought to know what's best, you don't question your choices. You still do what's best even if people tells you otherwise because they might be bad or not understand what is actually best. That's how I play. I would never stop CCing if I know it's the best way to mitigate damage even if someone would doubt it.

    This shouldn't stop you from pugging a divine.
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  17. #357
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    If you're good enought to know what's best, you don't question your choices. You still do what's best even if people tells you otherwise because they might be bad or not understand what is actually best. That's how I play. I would never stop CCing if I know it's the best way to mitigate damage even if someone would doubt it.

    This shouldn't stop you from pugging a divine.
    It was a bs quota is full from real life kind of decision.

  18. #358
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    My rogue sneaks,...
    Yet a ranger (or mostly-ranger) with Hide in Plain Sight, Sprint Boost, and Camouflage will sneak better and possibly faster than your rogue...


    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    ...finds...
    Once again, a mostly-ranger with Wild Instincts may be better at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    ...traps...
    Is your rogue a mechanic? You going to be the primary trapper with my mutt mechanic (only 7 rogue levels) in the party, who rolls 80s for disarming without even trying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    ...My cleric heals the party and slaps undead.
    My cleric heals, slaps undead (which is NOT a healing duty - it draws aggro), instakills, CCs, melees, and throws DoTs and AoEs. She also uses AoV, has a high UMD, and has the ability to get to hard-to-reach places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    My barb kills and draws agro.
    Please don't group with me. Ever. If your barb is trying to draw aggro, he is a nuisance - and no, he is not good at it. Single target heals and cures will approach an efficiency of maybe 10 hp/sp. Multi-target heals, auras, radiant bursts, and cures can approach 50 hp/sp. Tanking has a purpose (rarely), but it's almost always a 1v1 situation, and "drawing" aggro is a simple matter of keeping it. Not to mention that the paladin who MUST be in your party (according to your mentality, not mine) will be much better at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    This is what they are best at, and I built them as party toons.
    Ignorance is no excuse for pushing your agenda on others. Just because you haven't figured out how to play the game well yet does not give you equal voting rights. The game needs to be designed around people who KNOW how the game works, even if they choose not to take advantage.
    Last edited by Raithe; 07-21-2013 at 06:03 PM.

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    While I do the quests on Elite they are hardly "autocomplete". Of course there are a few easy quests that are. The average quest might not be "challenging" but we still have to be cautious of Elite traps, casters, etc. so those are not "autocomplete". In that type of quest the new player will still often die which is not what I would call "autocomplete for him either.
    Well, that's a difference in definition of auto-complete then. When I enter most quests on elite, I have absolute confidence the group will complete. That's not saying we can walk through it and collect our reward, but that having run the quest before, we, or at least I, know exactly what we will be facing and how to beat it and in most cases can take care of all the heavy lifting and essential tasks, generally at speed. I consider that to be auto-complete.

    If asked, I will point out the keys, if not I will assume those with me either know them or aren't interested in learning them.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What we can discern from observation is that the OP (and many others throughout the years) is expecting players to just know what to do, but they are not willing to support an environment that is conducive to players learning how to play at the level they expect them to, which is a direct contradiction in logic.
    Really? I was under the impression that the only thing the OP expects others to do is to know their place and stay away from his groups if he doesn't feel that is where they belong.

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