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  1. #321
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    If that is not an obligation, neither is self healing. Or, roles by classes are totally optional. Fighters should use wands with UMD instead of melee or ranged attacks, Rangers should spec in healing, arcane casters should go melee everytime, since nobody can expect them to use their class given spell repertoire.

    Your view of totally optional utility does not compute.

    The expectations of divine casters healing the group come by inherently given spells. You expect a melee class go into melee or at least use weapons which are appropriate.

    If you do not want to be that party member since you got an authority complex and see your personal freedom of choice *dictatored* then just stay out of groups who might expect you resembling that archtype of healer. Where is the problem with that?

    The whole argument between those 2 camps is just absurd. Play with ppl. you can get along, else, don't meddle with the others. And at least give advice to those, who are searching for it.
    this^

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm getting pretty fed up of this argument being brought up!

    One of the first things said to new players when asking about this game is to FARM 100 Favour on EVERY Server!

    How do you expect them to do that by running Normals?

    Seriously they're creating characters on each server and jumping straight into Korthos/Harbour Favour Runs!

    Even when on their Main/First/Chosen Server they're now inculcated into the Favour System!

    Want your 4th Inventory tab - That's 75 Coin Lords Favour
    A 5th tab? - You need to get to 150 {Oh yeah and find a Portable Hole + 10k Plat!}

    Want a 2nd Bank tab - That'll be 75 House K Favour please
    A 3rd? - 150

    Want Silver Flame Pots? - Here's the FUN PART!
    First you've gotta buy The Catacombs and all FOUR Necropolis {yes there's a Bundle} packs.
    Then you've gotta run EVERY ONE of these quests on ELITE!
    Don't worry - You no longer need the Raid - Not since we've added in the Lords of Dust Chain for ya!

    Agents of Argonessen Favour can get you that Portable Hole btw PLUS +10 HP - BUT to get this you need to buy Gianthold and run pretty much EVERY Quest in there on ELITE!


    Please stop suggesting that Newbies can get away with running nothing but Normal and Hard - They CAN'T!
    They NEED ELITE!

    Elite has become the NEW Normal Not just because it's easy {it's NOT!}.
    NOT because of Loot - Though I still feel the Devs hurt the game by making Elite only Loot!
    NOT because of Bravery Bonus or XP in general - Though this does have a major effect on what Vets are running MEANING that Newbies have to be Capable of running Elites if they want to join those Vets!

    NO - These are all Part of what makes Elite the New Norm BUT by far the worst offender is the FAVOUR GRIND!

    We've had Amrath and Yugo Pots
    We've had House Cannith and it's annoying MUST run Challenges to hit the Favour requirement
    And now we have Eveningstar and the INSANELY HIGH Favour requirements it requires!
    Id like to chime in that in my years of off and on play, from hard core 8 hours a plus to casual 1 hour a day at most in broken up moments from subscribtion to FTP the feeling of HAVING to earn favor has only become intensified since it became a way for those without disposable income to still expand their personal DDO experience, especially when there are have threads, and guides on these very forums telling players when and how they must reach certain community created standards to not be seen as too gimp. And yes this even includes storage space and access to things like Silver Flame pots as no longer optional wants but MUST HAVEs by far too many in game to let it me ignored as a real issue for new comers.

    As always it is truly more to do with a widely prevelent vocal preference in game for number crunching rather then playing. Which derives imo more to do with how much meta we can bring not to just our builds but to the dungeon themselves, The only way to break the cycle is to create content with truly randomized obstacles to force vet and new player alike to slow down and use all our brains and builds brawn to succeed.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Even a fairly new player should be able to easily do Elite Korthos/Harbor...by the time they are level 7 or 10 or whatever. Even such a new player should be able to do Elite House K / VoN / Red Fens by the time they are level 15 or 19 or such.

    New players do NOT need Elite AT LEVEL. They can level up on quests on Normal if that's what they can handle, and go back for favor later if they want to, when they are vastly over-level and over-powered for it. So the argument is perfectly valid.
    unfortunately this is probably one of the very few things I dont concur with you on Val. It is just abhorrent game design by a new comers perspective to be expected to play any content over lvl to succeed. especially when its so static it means ruining any potential challenge for a first time through at lvl. Yes we old timers learned by trial and error in a different era of the game we cant ever get back to, and trying to hold new comers to our old standards is just not reasonable imo. Especially as more of the younger ones are not coming froma D20 3E+ D&D anymore but 4E training when it comes to PnP. You cant expect those whose idea of war is weekend warrior paintballing to look at war the way a real soldier who has served over seas does. perhaps an extreme analogue but I feel an accurate one in this case and no disrespect meant nor belittlement meant to be implied towards actual vets of real wars. Its just night and day the dif between those PnPers from earlier eds and those younglings brought up on 4E.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    If that is not an obligation, neither is self healing. Or, roles by classes are totally optional. Fighters should use wands with UMD instead of melee or ranged attacks, Rangers should spec in healing, arcane casters should go melee everytime, since nobody can expect them to use their class given spell repertoire.

    Your view of totally optional utility does not compute.

    The expectations of divine casters healing the group come by inherently given spells. You expect a melee class go into melee or at least use weapons which are appropriate, do you? So do people expect caster icons using their given spells.

    If you do not want to be that party member since you got an authority complex and see your personal freedom of choice *dictatored* then just stay out of groups who might expect you resembling that archtype of healer. Where is the problem with that?

    The whole argument between those 2 camps is just absurd. Play with ppl. you can get along, else, don't meddle with the others. And at least give advice to those, who are searching for it.
    First, it would be nice if we had an idea which post you were referencing...

    Second, DDO is about CUSTOMIZING your character and you have no right to expect anyone to perform any particular role. If there is a quest that requires a particular role, a smart leader should talk to the party about who is going to fill that role. You know what they say about "A$$ - U - ME".

    And frankly only raids really require any particular role. 2 versions of my static group (3 different groups of characters) has no tank and we run Elite BB just fine.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Not even that, necessarily. We WENT through that curve, the hard way. What ticks some of us off is the new players who won't even TRY to learn, and expect things handed to them.

    No vet owes you private tutoring or hand-holding or carrying you through quests.

    Did you research it yourself? Read about it on the wiki? Go spend some time in there solo on Casual, just to get the the lay of the land? Did you even ASK?
    I sure as hell didnt, dont, wont, and wont ever encourage that of newcomers, my first standard for any MMO is how self contained it is, ANY MMO that makes it a need to go outside the game to be able to play in the game effectively has failed by a huge margin in my book.

    What I had in my corner at start when this game launched was a strong PnP back ground and a paticular fondness for the D20 system to the point I bought many diffferent d20 variations in the quest to make my own groups D20 game as rich and diverse as possible.

    My forum namesake and first cahracter on the fernia server may it never be forgotton was a 2 rogue,3 paladin,5 ranger with great saves, evasion, a nice mix of melee and ranged combat ability, UMD and trap skills. sure he wasnt the pure dps focus so many at the time insisted was the main role for all so called MELEE classes( fact in PnP if your pure melee your dead in the first adventure as per guidelines layed out in articles of Dungeon years ago) yet he was a proper ADventurer in every sense of the word. I knew how to make and play one because of PnP. Many harp on how far from PnP this game was, is, and has become but the fact is it has a huge impact on how well you can enter the game and grasp its mechanics. Yes there are house rules to learn, PnP players are also used to adapting to those as well with each knew home group you meet and play with.

    The fact is its on Turbine to DEVELOP a truly proper intoductory series of adventures, perhaps unqiue ones for each class, and mentor NPCs to spell out certain tricks of each, because otherwise it remains on the players, and its simply a fact most vets are just past the point of caring about meeting and training new players who know 0 about the entire system they are playing in.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I've never understood the mentality that Clerics & FvS somehow have some special burden to heal others when so many other classes have self-healing and other-healing options as well.

    There is no such obligation.



    Except those who try to pretend certain classes automatically have certain obligations.



    Yes, it is, if you're only asking Clr/FvS, and not asking EVERY SINGLE OTHER CLASS that could also be killing, CC, or healing.

    Why isn't your "should have played a Sorc" Sorc preventing/minimzing damage with HIS spells? And healing, too? Or the Ranger, or Monk, or Druid, or Bard, or Arti, with their abilities?

    Expecting Clr/FvS to heal and not expecting others to heal is just being a <omitted due to forum rules>. Everyone should be contributing, regardless of class icon.
    I concur with this post to the point I once again ponder if sir valentine is not an alternate timeline version of myself somehow sharing some kind of forum based trans dimensional nexus.

  7. #327
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    just a question if your a new player your most likely on a first life toon.......why all this talk about elite? I mean a first life toon do you *really* really need to keep an elite streak going?
    They do not really have a choice....

    (unless you know of a bunch of LFMs for something other than elite that I am not seeing...)
    (.. or think that any LFM they put up for any other difficulty will ever fill.....)


    /join
    /p Are we doing Elite?
    /p Oh... sorry... I can't affoord to break my streak... bye
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  8. #328
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    If that is not an obligation, neither is self healing. Or, roles by classes are totally optional. Fighters should use wands with UMD instead of melee or ranged attacks, Rangers should spec in healing, arcane casters should go melee everytime, since nobody can expect them to use their class given spell repertoire.

    Your view of totally optional utility does not compute.

    The expectations of divine casters healing the group come by inherently given spells. You expect a melee class go into melee or at least use weapons which are appropriate, do you? So do people expect caster icons using their given spells.

    If you do not want to be that party member since you got an authority complex and see your personal freedom of choice *dictatored* then just stay out of groups who might expect you resembling that archtype of healer. Where is the problem with that?

    The whole argument between those 2 camps is just absurd. Play with ppl. you can get along, else, don't meddle with the others. And at least give advice to those, who are searching for it.
    You have four character in your sig; I am very curious what their classes are....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False. There are a few on korthos that can one shot kill. If youre not trivializing it with 30 point resists that is.
    I trivialize them by always starting asa rogue, ALWAYS, and frankly everyone should who is not going to play in a static group with one, Rogue skills are essential dungeon delver skills any would be ADVENTURER will NEED to survive. At least for a first life new comer who cant be expected to have every map memorized and all the tricks known to twitch through the overly static dungeon design.

    This is just one of those things DDO really fails to properly convey to newcomers of the whole D&D D20 system. All iconic PnP heroes of this system are what are called batman builds here in DDO, complete skill utility and combat ability, often with enough or even alot of spell ability to viably in character be able to comprhend and counter magical attacks as well. From the princess's of Cormyr to Elminster to the Daughters of Mystra, very few of them do not have at least 3 to 4 core classes and several PRC in their mix in the official 3E suppliments.

    Just a side note to convey how OP Elminster really is, I have D20 BESM books for anime characters and have seen the stats of beings like Goku of DBZ, and even at full SS to the 4th power mode, he would stand absolutely no chance against a Wizard like El with all the OP ed greenwood designed caster feats,items, and spells made just to make casters utterly ridonkulous in end game. even pure vanilla that happens, and litterally every thing added was so imbalanced, combat classes should be giving warriors the ability to one shot kill foes outright when you consider what a build like Elminster allows.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    If that is not an obligation, neither is self healing.
    I'm not sure how you get from "I don't want to die, so I should heal myself after I take damage" to "People with Clr/FvS levels are my slaves who have to heal me."

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Or, roles by classes are totally optional.
    Exactly! DDO is so flexible, between your stats, your skills, your feats, your gear, your enhancements, and your destinies, that base class abilities are just one small piece of the puzzle. Expecting one specific thing just because someone has some class icon is simple-minded and, in many cases, flat-out wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Fighters should use wands with UMD instead of melee or ranged attacks, Rangers should spec in healing, arcane casters should go melee everytime, since nobody can expect them to use their class given spell repertoire.
    "Should"? "Everytime"? That, of course, is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

    There's no reason Fighters can't UMD wands. Give yourself Blur without wasting a gear slot on it. Protection from Evil so you're not Commanded. Cure Wounds to heal yourself.

    Have you tried a heal-specced Ranger? It's very effective. I solo-healed Elite Vale quests at-level on my pure Ranger just fine, thanks very much. If someone else wants to play their Ranger differently, well, that's MY point, you should be free to choose. If the result is effective (even if not in the exact stereotypical way that close-minded bigots expect from your class icon), there's nothing real to complain about.

    Oh, and melee-centric arcanes have been around for a long, long time. Heck, the FotM Juggernaut is just a modern-with-EDs version of the same idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Your view of totally optional utility does not compute.
    It works just fine, thank you very much. Maybe you need to upgrade whatever is failing to compute it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    The expectations of divine casters healing the group come by inherently given spells.
    That makes as much sense as saying every Fighter without a Tower Shield in their off-hand is doing it wrong, since they Tower Shield Proficiency is inherently given to them.

    And why only Clr/FvS with these expectations? What about Bards, Rangers, Druids, Paladins, and Artificers, all of whom get healing spells? And arguably, Wizards and Sorcs, do you expect them to watch the red bars of all Warforged in the party? Monks with their healing Ki stuff, why aren't they automatically responsible for everyone else's health?

    It's just bigotry to apply different standards to Clr/FvS than to every other class, and ignorant narrow-mindedness to think hjealbot is the only way Clr/FvS can be effective, or to think there's only one way for ANY class to be effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    You expect a melee class go into melee or at least use weapons which are appropriate, do you?
    No, I don't. But I do expect melee characters to use appropriate melee weapons. Their class is beside the point.

  11. #331
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I'm not sure how you get from "I don't want to die, so I should heal myself after I take damage" to "People with Clr/FvS levels are my slaves who have to heal me."



    Exactly! DDO is so flexible, between your stats, your skills, your feats, your gear, your enhancements, and your destinies, that base class abilities are just one small piece of the puzzle. Expecting one specific thing just because someone has some class icon is simple-minded and, in many cases, flat-out wrong.



    "Should"? "Everytime"? That, of course, is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

    There's no reason Fighters can't UMD wands. Give yourself Blur without wasting a gear slot on it. Protection from Evil so you're not Commanded. Cure Wounds to heal yourself.

    Have you tried a heal-specced Ranger? It's very effective. I solo-healed Elite Vale quests at-level on my pure Ranger just fine, thanks very much. If someone else wants to play their Ranger differently, well, that's MY point, you should be free to choose. If the result is effective (even if not in the exact stereotypical way that close-minded bigots expect from your class icon), there's nothing real to complain about.

    Oh, and melee-centric arcanes have been around for a long, long time. Heck, the FotM Juggernaut is just a modern-with-EDs version of the same idea.



    It works just fine, thank you very much. Maybe you need to upgrade whatever is failing to compute it.



    That makes as much sense as saying every Fighter without a Tower Shield in their off-hand is doing it wrong, since they Tower Shield Proficiency is inherently given to them.

    And why only Clr/FvS with these expectations? What about Bards, Rangers, Druids, Paladins, and Artificers, all of whom get healing spells? And arguably, Wizards and Sorcs, do you expect them to watch the red bars of all Warforged in the party? Monks with their healing Ki stuff, why aren't they automatically responsible for everyone else's health?

    It's just bigotry to apply different standards to Clr/FvS than to every other class, and ignorant narrow-mindedness to think hjealbot is the only way Clr/FvS can be effective, or to think there's only one way for ANY class to be effective.



    No, I don't. But I do expect melee characters to use appropriate melee weapons. Their class is beside the point.
    what I got out of his post was that melee are expected to be able to dps and be able to heal themselves without the help of other classes. its much easier for a cleric and fvs to heal others because they are supposed to be the best class at healing and its already built in. they take the feats and enhancements to only boost it and they would have the gear to do that too. the talk about rangers and paladins healing others doesn't come up much is because they have to invest in it. its not hard to heal others on those classes, but they don't get much in enhancements to boost pos healing and have to take feats plus its single heals with scrolls or single cure spells. not saying its not possible to heal a group, but how well the are able to play the healer role depends on how much they actually invest for that role and how well the group is knowing its single cast with limited sp compared to a healer class.

    the game is too easy overall to have defined roles most of the time, but its very easy to say just mix your builds for umd, play a self sufficient class, put a bunch of points in Int for more skill points and melees don't need max stats to have sufficient dps. this is 1 big reason why FOTM builds and self sufficient builds are popular. they can do it all and not many actually want to feel like they have to play a role because they help someone else out with a heal. some players got tired of not getting any help or much help from others so they play these builds instead.

  12. #332
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    .. or think that any LFM they put up for any other difficulty will ever fill.....
    This isn't really an issue. Having watched some real-life people become new players recently, it doesn't really matter if the game is set to normal or elite. Normal is only slightly less demanding in terms of needing metagame knowledge. And in most low-level quests, if you die you are down until someone can take you to a shrine - assuming that going to a shrine is even possible at your current quest stage. Suprisingly, I found it to be often NOT a possibility. Being a soul stone in a normal quest takes the same degree of "skill" as being a soul stone on elite.

    The true issue is that despite Turbine's attempts (on Korthos, in particular) of making the game hospitable to new players, once you reach the Harbor their original plan (retrying quests until you succeed) kicks in. Unfortunately their original plan was a hilariously bad idea. The truth is that new players (and not-new people just looking for egotistical fulfillment) need informed people to make the current gaming experience survivable. In the early days, failing a quest and retrying it was standard fare. Now it means auto-breakup and, like the OP's example, often involves squelching and name-calling.

    This is the difference between a decent to good playerbase, and a horrid one. The MMOs of my youth were near-polar opposites to this climate. New players were treated extremely well, and people were often playing simply for the enjoyment of helping others figure out how to enjoy the RPG style of game. In some respects, I think their openness is what helped kill their own genre. But at least they had one. This "genre" of making new players and bad players into pariahs is not a genre, at all. It has failed before it even began.

    Here's the concept I'd like to pass on. Many of us don't care if pikers or newbies join, because we already know what it takes to get through a quest and what it takes to make it profitable, and usually don't care that much about either anyway. If going to pick up someone's soul stone is a massive burden to you, then you might need to look in the mirror while cataloging bad player behavior. I'll admit that often the soul stones try to inflict their incompetence on others in the same way done in this thread, but being soul stones that care far too much about success, I find their banter to be extremely easy to label frivolous.

  13. #333
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    You have four character in your sig; I am very curious what their classes are....
    1 is a haggletoon, 1 is my main, 2 others are banktoons atm.

    Does your wondering have any specific point? Besides the reminder to update the sig., for which I didn't care enough yet?
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  14. #334
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I'm not sure how you get from "I don't want to die, so I should heal myself after I take damage" to "People with Clr/FvS levels are my slaves who have to heal me."
    There, right there it is. You have a way too extreme view, in my opinion. Who the hell is a *slave*? You toss heals in order to keep up somebody, who, in theory, contributes to a quest completion. If you feel enslaved by someone asking you for ressources he does not have access to, then sorry, you are playing the wrong game.

    And, by the way, your view sets 'does not have access to' equal to 'refuses to take care of himself intentively'. That is not accurate. You make no difference between idiots, who refuse to adapt and people, who might not be possible. So, are we talking about idiots or all people, who think, depending on a healer is nothing bad suince the class design indicates this way?


    Exactly! DDO is so flexible, between your stats, your skills, your feats, your gear, your enhancements, and your destinies, that base class abilities are just one small piece of the puzzle. Expecting one specific thing just because someone has some class icon is simple-minded and, in many cases, flat-out wrong.
    Again, if everything is an option, then non self healing is, too. You can like it or not, but you have to accept it at least. That still does not force you to play this way. But it does not validate you telling others, what they should do or should not. And there is the fine line, which is crossed too many times.



    "Should"? "Everytime"? That, of course, is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

    There's no reason Fighters can't UMD wands. Give yourself Blur without wasting a gear slot on it. Protection from Evil so you're not Commanded. Cure Wounds to heal yourself.

    Have you tried a heal-specced Ranger? It's very effective. I solo-healed Elite Vale quests at-level on my pure Ranger just fine, thanks very much. If someone else wants to play their Ranger differently, well, that's MY point, you should be free to choose. If the result is effective (even if not in the exact stereotypical way that close-minded bigots expect from your class icon), there's nothing real to complain about.

    Oh, and melee-centric arcanes have been around for a long, long time. Heck, the FotM Juggernaut is just a modern-with-EDs version of the same idea.
    No, I haven't tried a heal specc.ed Rgr since a Clr or FvS can better in most pugs. if you are running with otherwise twinked out toons or guildies or in general people, who you know, then UMD is all you need. I am not talking about melee centric arcanes, I am talking about refusing to use, what is given by your class, even if it is a core ressource. And that is healing spells on divine classes.



    It works just fine, thank you very much. Maybe you need to upgrade whatever is failing to compute it.
    I try to upgrade you and give you a differing view on the subject so you realize the contradiction in your arguments. Why does self healing stand absolutely mandatory over achtype roles asindicated by the class icons? The answer is:
    because it fullfills your needs to have fun in that game. But that is only for you. There are obvioulsy other people, who think differently. The subjective view is pushed over the whole community.


    That makes as much sense as saying every Fighter without a Tower Shield in their off-hand is doing it wrong, since they Tower Shield Proficiency is inherently given to them.

    And why only Clr/FvS with these expectations? What about Bards, Rangers, Druids, Paladins, and Artificers, all of whom get healing spells? And arguably, Wizards and Sorcs, do you expect them to watch the red bars of all Warforged in the party? Monks with their healing Ki stuff, why aren't they automatically responsible for everyone else's health?

    It's just bigotry to apply different standards to Clr/FvS than to every other class, and ignorant narrow-mindedness to think hjealbot is the only way Clr/FvS can be effective, or to think there's only one way for ANY class to be effective.
    Since divines have the best burst healing. No Bard, Ranger or Paladin can top it (I have never seen one, I might be wrong). In order to replace a divine icon totally, many factors have to synergize. That is simply a different standard of gameplaying. While there are people, who do not realize this and are surprised, when the group wipes even with divine icons present, there are people, who simply cannot rely on those factors. The attitude and words you are using, like bigotry, narrow-minded, enslaved.. are disrespectful. True to those, to whom they are applying, though.

    Who actually claims that divine classes, namely Clr and FvS are most effective when doing the hjealbot? I in fact see no hjeabots on Orien but I see people, who are willing to do so, if it is needed. As long as in return the depending toons compensate for the divine being in that role. If we are complaining about idiots and stupidity, then I think, we do not have to teach anybody and agree that this is not acceptable and disrespectful for others to waste their time. But the problem I have is, that more than once posts read like even asking for s single heal or buff is offensive to everyone playing a divine. This seems very unlikely and I oppsoe this tenor whenever I sense it.

    No, I don't. But I do expect melee characters to use appropriate melee weapons. Their class is beside the point.
    I object. Mundane classes have icons like divine classes, why are they an exception to your view on character customization and playstyle?

    It is matter of showing respect to other people (since we are dealing with each other, right?) to accept that views differ. Especially on this. I don't have a problem with somebody, who is self healing or does not want to share. I just want to know before starting a quest, so I can prepare myself. You instead claim a general expectation instead of communication. I think there is a real problem.

    I picked your posts, because you are using many bitter words for a subject, which can be solved by just using communication. Nobody prevents you from calling somebody a waste of ressources, if that situation ever arises. You are forced to nothing regarding playstyle. But if you aren't, so is nobody else. However you are forced to social conventions, as is everybody else.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 07-21-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    1 is a haggletoon, 1 is my main, 2 others are banktoons atm.

    Does your wondering have any specific point? Besides the reminder to update the sig., for which I didn't care enough yet?
    I don't know why you bothered if you weren't actually going to answer the question. And I won't put words in Talon's mouth but I know that I always wonder if the people who state that certain characters should fill an expected role (in DDO - Healers and Tanks) have ever played such a character.

  16. #336
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Where exactly did I state that? If you are interpreting my posts to this conclusion, then you did it wrong. Show me, where precisely I stated this point of view. I object the tendency to invalidate playing the game beyond self sufficiency.

    Else, my justifictaion regarding the topic is available when you scroll up.
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  17. #337
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    Default On the Internet, Expectations Lead to Entitlement

    I have a level 21 Cleric which I resolved when I created it never to PUG with. This is not because of the expectation that I will heal (the character is primarily a healer) but because of the attitude people have when a healer does not heal according to expectations. Although my character is a healer that doesn't mean I will heal exactly as you would like me to. Or that I want to be constantly "babysitting" the party. Or that I want to spend my (small) bankroll drinking pots. Too many people see a Cleric and think "oh good, now I don't have any responsibility for my character's Health - I can now do whatever I want and someone else is responsible if I die".

    But in general too many players have no concept of playing as a group. I'm not talking about raiding which I rarely do, but in regular questing if a caster lays down an AoE people generally ignore it. I have seen melees with 2 or 3 mobs standing right next to a blade barrier. I don't know if it is some ego thing where people are more concerned with looking like they can't kill the mobs by themselves or what. But what it really is, is disrespect for the caster's blue bar. If they do something to try to help the party, the party should recognize it and take advantage of it. Maybe group tactics aren't "necessary" because quests aren't that difficult. But don't tell me it won't kill the mobs faster to use the AoEs. (I'm not talking about playing at the level where you can kill the mob in the time for you to take the two steps to the AoE.)

    If you want other players to be cooperative in healing and tanking maybe the melees and nukers should play cooperatively also...O.o

  18. #338

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    Currently i play a rogue... I do watch my groupmates red bars and i often throw them a cacoon or scroll a heal. And when i see a divine turning a blind eye and let me do the work, that divine is going bye bye. He/she can explain it's reasons after settling nicely in my ignore list. But that's just me, one of the biggots out there.
    NESALOMLJIVI, Thelanis

  19. #339
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    This thread just sort of sums up 7 years of struggle for DDO to run with the big dogs in the MMO industry.

    New player comes to game.

    New player goes in on elite.

    New player figures cleric implies heals.

    New player gets no heals.

    New player dies.

    New player goes to new game.


    As a practical matter this forum ought to encourage tight class roles, instead of mocking them and allowing any discussion of it to devolve into insult throwing fistfights.

    If the 2 classes best fitted to heal, namely FvS and Cleric, were encouraged to heal, there'd be a hell of a lot more people hanging out in here.

    Don't bother with the 4 paragraph monologue on my close minded, terribad gaming skills. I have read this thread 1,000 times since 2006.

    Keep chasing the individualist, heal thyself through elite mentality...

    Maybe we can get down to 3 live servers by 2014.
    Last edited by Seere; 07-21-2013 at 01:35 PM.

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seere View Post
    If the 2 classes best fitted to heal, namely FvS and Cleric, were encouraged to heal, there'd be a hell of a lot more people hanging out in here.
    Just the two? Cause I would put a spellsinger bard or a druid who focused on it as being close to the random average FvS, and in groups made entirely of warforged sorcerors - I wonder which one of the burning hand icons should be doing the healing? Radiant servant clerics have access to infinite high-powered healing - why are Favored Souls put in the same boat?

    Every character gets in situations where they are in need of external healing. Stuns, trips, DoTs, just to name a few. People are correct in making self-sufficiency a precondition of teamwork, because unless you can help yourself, you aren't going to be helping anyone else.

    Healing power in this game is grossly overpowered. I have absolutely no issue helping real-life friends with a paladin at low levels, as long as circumstances allow me to heal and we aren't split up (and I'm not the one who has temporary connection problems). It doesn't take a cleric or a favored soul, it takes teamwork. From the beginning of DDO, turning your barbarian into a mana sponge was NEVER about teamwork. It was pretty much the opposite of that.

    The game actually needs less barbarian mana sponges and other characters played similarly. What you are casting as the problem is actually the solution. DDO would succeed if everyone (not just particular classes) who played treated each other as essential to the group, and worthy of healing and other assistance.

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