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  1. #301
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    and this supports my argument of some players relying on ship buffs as a crutch. if they learn to play with ship buffs, when they die, how do they learn to play without them? do they know to have resist pots just in case? do they beg for buffs? do they recall out and start over?
    I see it as providing them a buffer for potential newb mistakes, they can still look at the trap that hit them for example and say,

    "well I timed that badly"

  2. #302
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    I was just soloing a level 2 quest on elite. Durk maybe? Anyway, I got hit by an acid trap, I don't remember how much it hit for, but it was over 50 hp. I'm a twinked fighter and have over 100 so it wasn't a problem for me, but it would be for lots of characters. (I do have a problem in that my rogue splash isn't allowing me to find traps properly, but that's a different matter.)

    As for new players joining guilds, I'm sure many are not members, but they get invites, and the harbor is full of guilds recruiting. What's the #1 thing they advertise to get new members? Ship buffs.

  3. #303
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    just a question if your a new player your most likely on a first life toon.......why all this talk about elite? I mean a first life toon do you *really* really need to keep an elite streak going?

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    just a question if your a new player your most likely on a first life toon.......why all this talk about elite? I mean a first life toon do you *really* really need to keep an elite streak going?
    No, even a hard streak is totally unnecessary on a first life. But just because it's not needed doesn't mean players aren't going to run elites.

    There isn't a magical point at which someone stops being "new" and suddenly everything clicks. It's a process, and there's a whole spectrum of experience.

    Even if someone works their way up from normal to being comfortable in hard, they can still be unprepared for elite when they get to it. I think most people who make through the harbor and market can figure out things on normal difficulty without advice. It's when they start running at higher difficulty when the minor issue become big problems, and at some point people tend to attempt elites.

  5. #305
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisP.Fancypants View Post
    No, even a hard streak is totally unnecessary on a first life. But just because it's not needed doesn't mean players aren't going to run elites.

    There isn't a magical point at which someone stops being "new" and suddenly everything clicks. It's a process, and there's a whole spectrum of experience.

    Even if someone works their way up from normal to being comfortable in hard, they can still be unprepared for elite when they get to it. I think most people who make through the harbor and market can figure out things on normal difficulty without advice. It's when they start running at higher difficulty when the minor issue become big problems, and at some point people tend to attempt elites.
    I'm sorry but I'm getting pretty fed up of this argument being brought up!

    One of the first things said to new players when asking about this game is to FARM 100 Favour on EVERY Server!

    How do you expect them to do that by running Normals?

    Seriously they're creating characters on each server and jumping straight into Korthos/Harbour Favour Runs!

    Even when on their Main/First/Chosen Server they're now inculcated into the Favour System!

    Want your 4th Inventory tab - That's 75 Coin Lords Favour
    A 5th tab? - You need to get to 150 {Oh yeah and find a Portable Hole + 10k Plat!}

    Want a 2nd Bank tab - That'll be 75 House K Favour please
    A 3rd? - 150

    Want Silver Flame Pots? - Here's the FUN PART!
    First you've gotta buy The Catacombs and all FOUR Necropolis {yes there's a Bundle} packs.
    Then you've gotta run EVERY ONE of these quests on ELITE!
    Don't worry - You no longer need the Raid - Not since we've added in the Lords of Dust Chain for ya!

    Agents of Argonessen Favour can get you that Portable Hole btw PLUS +10 HP - BUT to get this you need to buy Gianthold and run pretty much EVERY Quest in there on ELITE!


    Please stop suggesting that Newbies can get away with running nothing but Normal and Hard - They CAN'T!
    They NEED ELITE!

    Elite has become the NEW Normal Not just because it's easy {it's NOT!}.
    NOT because of Loot - Though I still feel the Devs hurt the game by making Elite only Loot!
    NOT because of Bravery Bonus or XP in general - Though this does have a major effect on what Vets are running MEANING that Newbies have to be Capable of running Elites if they want to join those Vets!

    NO - These are all Part of what makes Elite the New Norm BUT by far the worst offender is the FAVOUR GRIND!

    We've had Amrath and Yugo Pots
    We've had House Cannith and it's annoying MUST run Challenges to hit the Favour requirement
    And now we have Eveningstar and the INSANELY HIGH Favour requirements it requires!

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    ...
    All these you mentioned are totally optional and not needed. You're trying to make them looking more mandatory than they are. I would say House K / Coin Lord are the most important but they're low level so it's not like you can't revisit those a couple level later to clear elite if it hasn't been done. I Did endgame raids, soloed EE, soloed pretty much everything that can be soloed without ever getting Yugo's pots (back when I did amrath I had no idea they existed) or needing silver flame pots (I got some though). 10 HP? Sure i'll take that. Needed? Some people dumb CON...

    Also, i've been playing since 2007 and I never yet created a character on every servers to get the TPs so you're kind of wrong if you think that everyone will do that.

    Need / Want, 2 different words.

    No one NEED elite.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-20-2013 at 03:52 AM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  7. #307
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    missclicked.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  8. #308
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm getting pretty fed up of this argument being brought up!

    One of the first things said to new players when asking about this game is to FARM 100 Favour on EVERY Server!

    How do you expect them to do that by running Normals?

    Seriously they're creating characters on each server and jumping straight into Korthos/Harbour Favour Runs!

    Even when on their Main/First/Chosen Server they're now inculcated into the Favour System!

    Want your 4th Inventory tab - That's 75 Coin Lords Favour
    A 5th tab? - You need to get to 150 {Oh yeah and find a Portable Hole + 10k Plat!}

    Want a 2nd Bank tab - That'll be 75 House K Favour please
    A 3rd? - 150

    Want Silver Flame Pots? - Here's the FUN PART!
    First you've gotta buy The Catacombs and all FOUR Necropolis {yes there's a Bundle} packs.
    Then you've gotta run EVERY ONE of these quests on ELITE!
    Don't worry - You no longer need the Raid - Not since we've added in the Lords of Dust Chain for ya!

    Agents of Argonessen Favour can get you that Portable Hole btw PLUS +10 HP - BUT to get this you need to buy Gianthold and run pretty much EVERY Quest in there on ELITE!


    Please stop suggesting that Newbies can get away with running nothing but Normal and Hard - They CAN'T!
    They NEED ELITE!

    Elite has become the NEW Normal Not just because it's easy {it's NOT!}.
    NOT because of Loot - Though I still feel the Devs hurt the game by making Elite only Loot!
    NOT because of Bravery Bonus or XP in general - Though this does have a major effect on what Vets are running MEANING that Newbies have to be Capable of running Elites if they want to join those Vets!

    NO - These are all Part of what makes Elite the New Norm BUT by far the worst offender is the FAVOUR GRIND!

    We've had Amrath and Yugo Pots
    We've had House Cannith and it's annoying MUST run Challenges to hit the Favour requirement
    And now we have Eveningstar and the INSANELY HIGH Favour requirements it requires!
    yes, they need elite for the favor but isn't it better to learn the quests, their build and to learn how to play before jumping into a difficulty that could be too much for them to handle? they join a group on elite without much experience and without much gear, maybe even their build is a little messed up and this is where the problems are between vets and new/inexperienced players.

    Coin Lord favor is the easiest favor to get. there are Coin Lord quests from low all the way to high and theres a lot of them. Argo favor isn't necessary and I don't think its ever been necessary favor. its only 10 hp. if you don't get it in GH, theres still Reavers Refuge with 4 quests. a portable hole is very random and I usually only pull 1-2 per life, but they are so cheap today and usually can find someone willing to just give 1 away. I have 10 on a bank toon after I stopped selling them after I pulled them. its what, 10k plat to get the guy to repair the hole? you can loot that in a couple quests. the House K favor could still be ran later on as a higher level. you can get the first tab easy enough by the time you started Von series if you just ran normal/hard.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    elite, know it , need guide
    elite byoh bss, only cleric fvs ticked
    elite ip. they are looking pretty on the ship
    Those are all obvious and easy to avoid, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    hard farm, solo tower, you join, they are all dead
    "Sorry, misclick" and drop :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    elite byoh, you join on cleric, suddenly noone can hjeal themselves and is just awful.
    Let'em die, no biggie.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm getting pretty fed up of this argument being brought up!

    <snipped long rant about favor rewards>

    Please stop suggesting that Newbies can get away with running nothing but Normal and Hard - They CAN'T!
    They NEED ELITE!
    Even a fairly new player should be able to easily do Elite Korthos/Harbor...by the time they are level 7 or 10 or whatever. Even such a new player should be able to do Elite House K / VoN / Red Fens by the time they are level 15 or 19 or such.

    New players do NOT need Elite AT LEVEL. They can level up on quests on Normal if that's what they can handle, and go back for favor later if they want to, when they are vastly over-level and over-powered for it. So the argument is perfectly valid.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    It is apparent that most of the existing players don't comprehend or remember the steep learning curve that this game can be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No, it's that we don't care.
    Not even that, necessarily. We WENT through that curve, the hard way. What ticks some of us off is the new players who won't even TRY to learn, and expect things handed to them.

    No vet owes you private tutoring or hand-holding or carrying you through quests.

    Did you research it yourself? Read about it on the wiki? Go spend some time in there solo on Casual, just to get the the lay of the land? Did you even ASK?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    What we are expecting from them is to LEARN it by themselves THEN go play with the big boys. If YOU want to teach new players, go ahead and do it. We don't have to do that all the time. And we shouldn't NEED to do it in order to not have people coming in an Elite quests only to keep dying.
    Yes, this.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Telling me that I need to have at least three lives in cleric to be self-sufficient doesn't help me get there through live 1 through three.
    Good, because whoever told you that was lying. 3 Cleric lives is to have better CC, not better self-sufficiency. Maybe you should look into 3 Pally lives instead.

  14. #314
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    Back when I bothered with divines my solution for this was never heal an arcane unless they tell me they will need heals. Unless they say say they need heals I assume they're fully self sufficient.
    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    And you're 1 out of how many divines?

    And if you assume wrong?

    Granted, I'm picking on you, but I think you're maybe the exception to the rule.
    He's not the exception. Isn't it standard practice?

    When that reasonable assumption is wrong, well, their reward for building a gimp is dying.

    I don't say every arcane has to be Warforged, or has to be a PM, or has to build for UMD, or has to have Silver Flame pots, or has to twist in Cocoon, or WHATEVER, but why the heck would you deliberately pick NONE of the many self-healing options?

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redtalktree View Post
    It dont matter if u a TR or not, doing Elite quests in trap infested dungeon will kill toons that don,t have evasion\imp evasion, especially groups that dont have trapper and just zerg thru, no matter how high you can heal, them damn traps still going to get you if its not disabled.
    LOL.

    Many of us know from experience that that is simply not true.

    There are ways to avoid traps (timing, for example). There are ways to mitigate traps (Protection From Energy, say). There are ways to simply survive traps (have lots of HP). Evasion and trappers are NOT needed. Though the bonus XP for disabling enough traps is nice.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive never understood the mentality behind playing a divine and never healing others. Should have just played a sorc. Considerably more DPS, and no obligation to heal anyone other than themselves when they see fit. Its a win win situation for all involved.
    I've never understood the mentality that Clerics & FvS somehow have some special burden to heal others when so many other classes have self-healing and other-healing options as well.

    There is no such obligation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nobody is FORCING a class role on anyone in this game.
    Except those who try to pretend certain classes automatically have certain obligations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Divines as more of a prevention/mitigation device rather than a recovery device. Instakilling, commanding, BB kiting, turning undead, holding, etc....are all mitigation that prevents/minimizes damage to the party. If a divine cant do that well enough to where the party still takes damage IN BATTLE, they should throw a heal - and at that point its not too much to ask of them.
    Yes, it is, if you're only asking Clr/FvS, and not asking EVERY SINGLE OTHER CLASS that could also be killing, CC, or healing.

    Why isn't your "should have played a Sorc" Sorc preventing/minimzing damage with HIS spells? And healing, too? Or the Ranger, or Monk, or Druid, or Bard, or Arti, with their abilities?

    Expecting Clr/FvS to heal and not expecting others to heal is just being a <omitted due to forum rules>. Everyone should be contributing, regardless of class icon.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I don't have a problem with bad players. Only rude ones.
    I'm actually a pretty forgiving person. I can forgive rudeness, from a competent person. I can forgive incompetence, from someone who's polite and earnest.

    But don't be both incompetent and rude. <Kick & squelch!>

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosEmperorDragon View Post
    Truth is a group of versatile self-sufficient toons will never be as effective as a coordinated group of dedicated specialists working as a team.
    LOL. Not in DDO, and not in real life. Only in romantic, idealized textbook situations where nothing ever goes wrong. In practice, the huge increase in flexibility and reliability is far more important and useful than the slight gain in (almost-never-realized) maximum theoretical efficiency.

  19. #319
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    LOL. Not in DDO, and not in real life. Only in romantic, idealized textbook situations where nothing ever goes wrong. In practice, the huge increase in flexibility and reliability is far more important and useful than the slight gain in (almost-never-realized) maximum theoretical efficiency.
    lag and rolling multiple ones never happens and will never happen right?

  20. #320
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    I've never understood the mentality that Clerics & FvS somehow have some special burden to heal others when so many other classes have self-healing and other-healing options as well.

    There is no such obligation.
    If that is not an obligation, neither is self healing. Or, roles by classes are totally optional. Fighters should use wands with UMD instead of melee or ranged attacks, Rangers should spec in healing, arcane casters should go melee everytime, since nobody can expect them to use their class given spell repertoire.

    Your view of totally optional utility does not compute.

    The expectations of divine casters healing the group come by inherently given spells. You expect a melee class go into melee or at least use weapons which are appropriate, do you? So do people expect caster icons using their given spells.

    If you do not want to be that party member since you got an authority complex and see your personal freedom of choice *dictatored* then just stay out of groups who might expect you resembling that archtype of healer. Where is the problem with that?

    The whole argument between those 2 camps is just absurd. Play with ppl. you can get along, else, don't meddle with the others. And at least give advice to those, who are searching for it.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 07-21-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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