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  1. #281
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No traps hit that hard at level 1.

    Try again
    False. There are a few on korthos that can one shot kill. If youre not trivializing it with 30 point resists that is.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #282
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False. There are a few on korthos that can one shot kill. If youre not trivializing it with 30 point resists that is.
    Screenshot or it doesn't happen.

  3. #283
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Maybe this got tuned back down, I didn't pay attention to the numbers as it was still easy, but didn't spell damage in all elites get tuned way up u14? If so does it really matter that the quests were designed pre ship buffs?

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    What you're missing is that humans learn through experience derived through positive or negative consequences.

    When a new player with 42 HP runs headlong into a 52-point trap with no protections, he gets a painful and immediate lesson on taking traps seriously. If soloing, it's probably a do-over, and if in a group, it's embarrassing and a bore while you pike to the next shrine.

    That lesson is suppressed when the 52-point trap becomes a 22-point trap and he can just take a pot and carry on.

    That's all the point that is being made here.
    That's the first time. If he's good already because of previous gaming or just smart, you think he's gonna get caught again and again? Obviously there aren't traps in every single game, but adapting doesn't even take a whole day if you're serious about it, that's what I actually meant. Not saying that divine knowledge will tell you everything even before it happened. Being good at games and learning games is 2 totally different skills in the end. I'm good at this game, like I do my job and don't die much, but my knowledge of the game (not quests themselves) is limited if I would compare it to some, because that is not the part of the game that interrest me.

    And actually if i'm new and can't afford pots, and just get it for 22 damages which could be enought to call it a wipe in the end of the quest, do you think I wouldn't bother about dodging it? I think so. Lesson learned with or without ship buffs. Of course, if I want to learn it and adapt only.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  5. #285
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Maybe this got tuned back down, I didn't pay attention to the numbers as it was still easy, but didn't spell damage in all elites get tuned way up u14? If so does it really matter that the quests were designed pre ship buffs?
    That's possible, and I also mostly solo or two-man the low level stuff and it's MUCH lower with scaling.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Trying to downplay the learning curve, then expect people to learn, is a direct contradiction in logic. Skilled =/= game knowledge. I can have the reflexes of a millitary andriod, but if I dont understand the game mechanics theres still stuff that needs to be learned.
    Maybe you struggled more than I did when you started playing. I don't see which extraordinary mechanics you are talking about. It's an action MMORPG, just like any other. Casters cast spells and melee uses close weapons. Oh but there are traps... which are most likely static.

    I bet whoever said that new players would leave if they didn't have ship buffs was making an assumption or simply eggagerating to prove his point, nothing new there. I am not here to debate what is obviously not true and that is not even 1% of the actual debate. Same with buying your way to 20, how does it matter if it's possible to do it BUT we don't really get to play with those much. Why should we even care.

    Trained conditioning... come on this is not psychology, it's a game and not the first one of it's genre. It's not true that everyone (anyone?) gets in the game with 0 skill when it comes to gaming. Again, casters are casters and melees are melees, nothing new there. You are eggagerating as well to prove your point. Actually you seem to just be sticking to it since admitting your false assumptions would be too hard. I'm used to that anyway.

    It's like if players themselves made no difference when it comes to win/lose and that ship buffs are there to hold their hands and assure completion... really? You really think that deep inside?

    Maybe if that lightning bolt (and traps) on elite would do zero damage with ship buffs, I would be more inclined to agree with you. But anyone who'se good understand that he is playing with ship buffs and that the 30 damage absorbtion is there anyway. They don't just run in there thinking that this is how the game is without resist. I mean it's not so hard to substract 30, is it?

    Edit: LoS are LoS, AoE are AoE, focusing on casters first is important, etc. People aren't just all stupid, you know.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-19-2013 at 02:10 PM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False. There are a few on korthos that can one shot kill. If youre not trivializing it with 30 point resists that is.
    BS. Every life I blast through the Korthos Elite quests, before I go to the bank to get any gear or the ship for buffs. Gets me a good ways into level 2 before I hit my cache for all of my ML2 Crafted goodies.

    The only trap in all of Korthos that even makes a small attempt at killing players who haven't dumped their CON is the cold cones at the end of Stopping the Sahuagen. And you really have to stand in them beating on that spider for awhile, not at all one-shot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Maybe this got tuned back down, I didn't pay attention to the numbers as it was still easy, but didn't spell damage in all elites get tuned way up u14? If so does it really matter that the quests were designed pre ship buffs?
    Indeed. As I mentioned before, the Kobold Shaman's Lightning Bolt bears no resemblance to what it was four years ago, let alone when the game was created. Rebounds have been nearly game changing for that particular spell, and the Spell Power change really cranked up the damage that enemy casters throw out. Saying that it is anything at all like it was when the quests were designed is extremely disingenuous. But it is a lot easier to soap box about irrelevant subjects when you ignore factual information and simply spout whatever fits your agenda.

  8. #288
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Maybe you struggled more than I did when you started playing. I don't see which extraordinary mechanics you are talking about. It's an action MMORPG, just like any other. Casters cast spells and melee uses close weapons. Oh but there are traps... which are most likely static.

    I bet whoever said that new players would leave if they didn't have ship buffs would leave was making an assumption or simply eggagerating to prove his point, nothing new there. I am not here to debate what is obviously not true and that is not even 1% of the actual debate. Same with buying your way to 20, how does it matter if it's possible to do it BUT we don't really get to play with those much. Why should we even care.

    Trained conditioning... come on this is not psychology, it's a game and not the first one of it's genre. It's not true that everyone (anyone?) gets in the game with 0 skill when it comes to gaming. Again, casters are casters and melees are melees, nothing new there. You are eggagerating as well to prove your point. Actually you seem to just be sticking to it since admitting your false assumptions would be too hard. I'm used to that anyway.

    It's like if players themselves made no difference when it comes to win/lose and that ship buffs are there to hold their hands and assure completion... really? You really think that deep inside?

    Maybe if that lightning bolt (and traps) on elite would do zero damage with ship buffs, I would be more inclined to agree with you. But anyone who'se good understand that he is playing with ship buffs and that the 30 damage absorbtion is there anyway. They don't just run in there thinking that this is how the game is without resist. I mean it's not so hard to substract 30, is it?
    I've made the comment that removing ship buffs would make it harder on new players and that is a bad thing with the learning curve of this game. Seriously vets can dodge skip and jump around most anything where new players need to learn the maps mobs etc even at low level. Removing ship buffs might make me have to time some things I just run thru now it's true, but I was timing them before I joined a high level guild and I can do so again np. The new player that doesn't know something is there though stands a decent chance of dying however. I don't see this as a good thing.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I've made the comment that removing ship buffs would make it harder on new players and that is a bad thing with the learning curve of this game. Seriously vets can dodge skip and jump around most anything where new players need to learn the maps mobs etc even at low level. Removing ship buffs might make me have to time some things I just run thru now it's true, but I was timing them before I joined a high level guild and I can do so again np. The new player that doesn't know something is there though stands a decent chance of dying however. I don't see this as a good thing.
    No offence there, but if you run through traps because you have ship buffs, maybe you are not the definition I would use when relating to a good player.

    I also said that new players are the one that benefits the most from ship buffs, which I still think is true. But enought for them to leave or stay... just thinking about it is simply stupid. That's reading between the lines and knowing when someone is actually just trying to "win" an argument instead of trying to make it progress into something that might help for real.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  10. #290
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    No offence there, but if you run through traps because you have ship buffs, maybe you are not the definition I would use when relating to a good player.

    I also said that new players are the one that benefits the most from ship buffs, which I still think is true. But enought for them to leave or stay... just thinking about it is simply stupid. That's reading between the lines and knowing when someone is actually just trying to "win" an argument instead of trying to make it progress into something that might help for real.
    It's a matter of speed, if I know I can live thru it and heal with one click and have it be faster than timing yeah I'll run thru it. Faster equals better xp/min. It all depends on the toon, trap, scaling, etc, but in general I do whatever results in faster completion times.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's a matter of speed, if I know I can live thru it and heal with one click and have it be faster than timing yeah I'll run thru it. Faster equals better xp/min. It all depends on the toon, trap, scaling, etc, but in general I do whatever results in faster completion times.
    Fair enought. Once you know what you can and can't do to survive, I guess this is the right way to do it. I just find it fun to avoid as much damage as I can but understand not everyone is like that.
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  12. #292
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's a matter of speed, if I know I can live thru it and heal with one click and have it be faster than timing yeah I'll run thru it. Faster equals better xp/min. It all depends on the toon, trap, scaling, etc, but in general I do whatever results in faster completion times.
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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Seems like a pretty clear point to me, and a valid one. The entire point of having levels in a game is that power should increase gradually with difficulty. Ship buffs make level 1 characters into demi-gods, which makes low level content not sufficiently challenging that they are able to learn what they need to know to succeed in the game.
    That's only a valid argument if some significant number of new players has access to ship buffs. No one has any concrete evidence that they do. I find it entirely unlikely and have personally not experienced it when I group with new players at low levels.

  14. #294
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    BS. Every life I blast through the Korthos Elite quests, before I go to the bank to get any gear or the ship for buffs. Gets me a good ways into level 2 before I hit my cache for all of my ML2 Crafted goodies.
    This reinforces my point quite nicely actually. But youre wrong, there are traps that can one shot kill there - if you dont know them, youre probably metagaming/metaselecting your way past them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    The only trap in all of Korthos that even makes a small attempt at killing players who haven't dumped their CON is the cold cones at the end of Stopping the Sahuagen. And you really have to stand in them beating on that spider for awhile, not at all one-shot.
    Thats not the only one by far.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    Indeed. As I mentioned before, the Kobold Shaman's Lightning Bolt bears no resemblance to what it was four years ago, let alone when the game was created. Rebounds have been nearly game changing for that particular spell, and the Spell Power change really cranked up the damage that enemy casters throw out. Saying that it is anything at all like it was when the quests were designed is extremely disingenuous. But it is a lot easier to soap box about irrelevant subjects when you ignore factual information and simply spout whatever fits your agenda.
    In doublestrike only.

    Waterworks and a few other quests were also a level lower back then. Hold person was a death sentence back then. Elemental damage was just as threatening save for the doublestrike mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    But it is a lot easier to soap box about irrelevant subjects when you ignore factual information and simply spout whatever fits your agenda.
    Or declare things you disagree with irrelevant due to inability to refute them.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #295
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    That's only a valid argument if some significant number of new players has access to ship buffs. No one has any concrete evidence that they do. I find it entirely unlikely and have personally not experienced it when I group with new players at low levels.
    Kind of funny, because the entire argument was spawned due to the claim made by someone who disagreed with my stance that if they got rid of 30 point resists the newbies would not continue to play the game past the short trial period. Here you are attempting to disagree with me, yet refuting the same premise that I refuted which began the entire discussion. How is there going to be a mass exodus of newbies if they didnt even know ship buffs existed previous to playing the game for a bit?

    In many of these threads discussing game mechanics, I see alot of using newbies as scapegoats. People in opposition should have just said they want to keep their buffs because it allows them to plow each harbor quest 30 seconds faster in their TR runs, which adds up to xp/min for them in the long run.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #296
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Kind of funny, because the entire argument was spawned due to the claim made by someone who disagreed with my stance that if they got rid of 30 point resists the newbies would not continue to play the game past the short trial period. Here you are attempting to disagree with me, yet refuting the same premise that I refuted which began the entire discussion. How is there going to be a mass exodus of newbies if they didnt even know ship buffs existed previous to playing the game for a bit?

    In many of these threads discussing game mechanics, I see alot of using newbies as scapegoats. People in opposition should have just said they want to keep their buffs because it allows them to plow each harbor quest 30 seconds faster in their TR runs, which adds up to xp/min for them in the long run.
    By that you logic you need to drop the "it makes newbie's not learn" bit that you do, because what you want is those people to have to make that slow down.

  17. #297
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No traps hit that hard at level 1.

    Try again
    i don't think they hit for 52ish hp but i do know they hit for 3/4 your hp. 1/2 at the least. still a valuable lesson learned to respect traps. well, until you realize there are very few traps on elite that are practically insta killers.

  18. #298
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I've made the comment that removing ship buffs would make it harder on new players and that is a bad thing with the learning curve of this game. Seriously vets can dodge skip and jump around most anything where new players need to learn the maps mobs etc even at low level. Removing ship buffs might make me have to time some things I just run thru now it's true, but I was timing them before I joined a high level guild and I can do so again np. The new player that doesn't know something is there though stands a decent chance of dying however. I don't see this as a good thing.
    and this supports my argument of some players relying on ship buffs as a crutch. if they learn to play with ship buffs, when they die, how do they learn to play without them? do they know to have resist pots just in case? do they beg for buffs? do they recall out and start over?

  19. #299
    Halfling Hero phalaeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Pretty soon reality will hit you and you'll realize nobody heals anymore.

    If you're not able to heal yourself have fun waiting around while the rest of the server is running quests.

    It's just how things are.
    I agree with your last two sentences, but not the first. People do heal... they just don't heal stupid.
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  20. #300
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phalaeo View Post
    I agree with your last two sentences, but not the first. People do heal... they just don't heal stupid.
    or they just grab a hire, which i have seen a lot over the past many months. a lot more people are not willing to wait for a healer.

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