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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Overall what Troll is saying here, however my previous post was something I'd call sarcastic truth. True morons who don't read, listen, ext are fairly rare overall but you tend to get them in clumps, if all that's left in a population is a group of morons, then yeah that's what you're going to get, a large population in general has enough people that can read an lfm description for it to work. That goes for flower sniffing, zerg, byoh, one handed midgets only, you name it.
    It's less likely that they can't read than that they just don't care what some pug leader wrote.

    That said, the post that precipitated this little debate had says Hi and engages me in conversation as expectations for the perfect strangers that hit up their LFM. Others seem to include reads my mind and knows exactly what I want them to be doing at all times as qualifications.

  2. #202
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It's less likely that they can't read than that they just don't care what some pug leader wrote.

    That said, the post that precipitated this little debate had says Hi and engages me in conversation as expectations for the perfect strangers that hit up their LFM. Others seem to include reads my mind and knows exactly what I want them to be doing at all times as qualifications.
    My statement of can't read likely is that they just don't care which is rude on their part.

    also rude on their part is asking for a share before hi, hey, ext.

    not following questing style is rude

    People with that much disdain for others get clumped together in a general moron category for me. These people clump together as stated, more people and you get less of them.

  3. #203
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    So... you are actually going and basing your idea that your Barbarian is doing something great, against a caster who is kiting things through Acid Fog?!? A pitifully low damage persistent AoE? A huge number of extremely clueless things have been brought up, and I was staying out of this discussion since I do not particularly care, but this just takes it to an entirely insane level of stupidity.....

    The argument keeps getting made that 'self sufficient' characters have gimped themselves in order to get to this level of self sufficiency. That is entirely false as well. It would be more accurate to say that some characters gimp themselves in order to build in self sufficiency, which is no different than any other way that people gimp their own builds. This is going to happen any time you allow people to make choices that have meaningful consequences.

    Forcing 'class roles' onto people is something that was pushed when DDO first launched. And it didn't exactly make much of a splash when it launched. Forcing parties just does not work in modern MMOs.
    what you quoted was the middle of an argument that escalated into my barbarian vs his caster. he was using worse case scenario of how he apparently plays to show that casters can kill, self heal and zerg better than barbarians.

    what i posted and you quoted is an example much like i see in BYOH, zerg and solo a side groups. acid fog was just one example to show what i typically see in those kind of groups. i see casters throwing down disco ball and rounding up mobs to use chain lightening and wail as well. it just depends on the quest, level and what spells these casters are using. i was merely trying to point out that a well played barb can solo a side just as easily as a self sufficient caster can. the caster should be faster at it, but i have experienced seeing it not always like that and sometimes even a caster gets too much agro and dies. the thing i repeatedly say is that it doesn't matter what class or build you are playing or how self sufficient you are or how bad ass you might think your character is, it will always boil down to how well you play your character. people pick apart a class too much when they should be looking at the player instead.

  4. #204
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Actually, it looks more to me like a complaint about a player not recognizing they are in over their heads and not taking the game seriously enough to follow along and take the opportunity to rectify the situation. Of course it also only offers one side of the story, so we don't know if interaction with the rest of the group may have encouraged the player to play the way he/she did. From opinions given by the OP in this thread, that does not seem unlikely.
    Right but if the environment was as such that the player either had to learn or they would not succeed, this issue would not exist. The environment was more and more like that the further and further you go back. The irony here is the dumbing down of the game where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge is supported by the same folks who complain about people not knowing how to play when they hit their LFMs - which is a direct contradiction in logic.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #205
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    I'm sorry, I don't mean to be picking on you Chai, but this statement just doesn't make any sense:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    the dumbing down of the game where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge
    people not knowing how to play
    If the game is so easy that it is now autocompletion then why do people need to know how to play?

    And to bring the point back to the OP, we're not really talking about knowing how to play there. We're talking about a lack of simple logic. When you join a LFM you can see who is already in. So the Barb knew there was no healer. I hope he also knew he had no healing pots. So its not a matter of game tactics or strategy, its a matter of 1+1=2 that he had no form of healing and yet was running off by himself. If you don't even have that basic ability to understand your own situation, no amount of "learning how to play" is going to help you.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My statement of can't read likely is that they just don't care which is rude on their part.

    also rude on their part is asking for a share before hi, hey, ext.

    not following questing style is rude

    People with that much disdain for others get clumped together in a general moron category for me. These people clump together as stated, more people and you get less of them.
    I guess we just have different definitions of rude. Personally I don't see not going out of one's way to be polite as being rude. I actually often find it to be rude, as in "how are you".

    BTW, what is ext. an abbreviation for here, because none of the definitions I can find seem to fit with the context?

  7. #207
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I guess we just have different definitions of rude. Personally I don't see not going out of one's way to be polite as being rude. I actually often find it to be rude, as in "how are you".

    BTW, what is ext. an abbreviation for here, because none of the definitions I can find seem to fit with the context?
    should have been etc for etcetera typing fast and not looking close and thinking.

    and unless I'm misunderstanding what you typed you find

    "hey everyone"
    "hey can I get a share real quick"

    to be rude

    while you don't find

    "Share PLZ"
    to be rude for the first comments out of someones mouth?
    Last edited by Charononus; 07-18-2013 at 05:46 PM.

  8. #208
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't mean to be picking on you Chai, but this statement just doesn't make any sense:



    If the game is so easy that it is now autocompletion then why do people need to know how to play?
    What I actually stated: The irony here is the dumbing down of the game where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge is supported by the same folks who complain about people not knowing how to play when they hit their LFMs - which is a direct contradiction in logic.

    The only thing distorted here is quoting of choice words in the sentence not including all words from beginning to end giving a different premise to argue against, a premise I might add, that I did not post in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    And to bring the point back to the OP, we're not really talking about knowing how to play there. We're talking about a lack of simple logic.
    Nope, we are talking about the OPs definition of knowing how to play, which he states as an absolute which according to him "all smart people follow" - I grinned right before I completely refuted that premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    When you join a LFM you can see who is already in. So the Barb knew there was no healer. I hope he also knew he had no healing pots. So its not a matter of game tactics or strategy, its a matter of 1+1=2 that he had no form of healing and yet was running off by himself. If you don't even have that basic ability to understand your own situation, no amount of "learning how to play" is going to help you.
    Understanding that if you want peopel to understand what you call "simple logic" you must insert them into an environment where they will learn it. Supporting the environment not being conducive to where it is not NEEDED - and at the same time expecting them to play according to that definition, is a direct contradiction. The reality of the situation is that player did not learn survivability playing through 20 levels on a first life and 9-11 levels on a second life - even enough to understand they need cure pots - due to the very fact that the environment they SHOULD HAVE learned this in, DOES NOT teach them this with failure being the penalty until they learn.

    In order to have that expectation at all, you must also support playing in an environment that is realistic to learn this expectation in. If you do not support that environment, then you must understand that you cannot expect players to show up ready for action, by your own definition.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #209
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Right but if the environment was as such that the player either had to learn or they would not succeed, this issue would not exist. The environment was more and more like that the further and further you go back. The irony here is the dumbing down of the game where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge is supported by the same folks who complain about people not knowing how to play when they hit their LFMs - which is a direct contradiction in logic.
    The reason things are auto complete is some people do research. We already touched on it, but I will have a monk/fighter kensai mutt that will be OP on day one when the pass goes thru. Sure it may be a FOTM build, but it is because of me taking time to learn these types of things that I may have an easier time than someone that cannot be bothered.

    This game is only as easy as you make it. If you invest no time in learning anything and just go around swinging your “ice looking club”, not putting any thought into anything else, whose fault is it?

    It is hard for me to have sympathy for the 95% of players that can’t be bothered to read this forum. Hell, who knows how many even use Wiki or some other source of knowledge.

    DISCAIMER: I am not calling out people that want to play in whatever way they like. If they are having fun, fine. Just don’t nerf me because others are too lazy to do for themselves.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  10. #210
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    should have been etc for etcetera typing fast and not looking close and thinking.
    ...and the fact that the default colors for the text entry box for the forums is black on dark gray...

  11. #211
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What I actually stated: The irony here is the dumbing down of the game where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge is supported by the same folks who complain about people not knowing how to play when they hit their LFMs - which is a direct contradiction in logic.

    The only thing distorted here is quoting of choice words in the sentence not including all words from beginning to end giving a different premise to argue against, a premise I might add, that I did not post in the first place.
    I'll go one further. The definition of a bad player is now extended to those who do not self-heal, whether they need to self-heal or not.

    Which is an extension of not having a high enough CON for any specific level of quest.

    In short, it is ultimately a build-in bias by many forumites, who still are obsessed with defining a book based on its cover.

  12. #212
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    The reason things are auto complete is some people do research. We already touched on it, but I will have a monk/fighter kensai mutt that will be OP on day one when the pass goes thru. Sure it may be a FOTM build, but it is because of me taking time to learn these types of things that I may have an easier time than someone that cannot be bothered.

    This game is only as easy as you make it. If you invest no time in learning anything and just go around swinging your “ice looking club”, not putting any thought into anything else, whose fault is it?

    It is hard for me to have sympathy for the 95% of players that can’t be bothered to read this forum. Hell, who knows how many even use Wiki or some other source of knowledge.

    DISCAIMER: I am not calling out people that want to play in whatever way they like. If they are having fun, fine. Just don’t nerf me because others are too lazy to do for themselves.
    This game has been made easier and easier to play through for a long time now. No one is nerfing you at all, in fact if you call installing a learning curve into this game a nerf, by that logic then they have been buffing you for 4 years now, regularly, by making the game easier and easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    This game is only as easy as you make it. If you invest no time in learning anything and just go around swinging your “ice looking club”, not putting any thought into anything else, whose fault is it?
    This statement is particularly false. Heres why. The game is not simply as hard or easy as the PLAYER makes it. It is as easy as the company makes it. As to whose fault is it, if the game doesnt require at least some learning curve, then it is no fault of any players that they can succeed by "swinging their nice looking club" - and it is also no fault of their own to expect that to be the formula for success later on.

    If they didnt NEED to invest any time learning, it cant be expected of them to do so. Setting that expectation at the same time not supporting the environment being conducive to requiring it to succeed, is a direct contradiction.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-18-2013 at 05:56 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #213
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This game has been made easier and easier to play through for a long time now. No one is nerfing you at all, in fact if you call installing a learning curve into this game a nerf, by that logic then they have been buffing you for 4 years now, regularly, by making the game easier and easier.



    This statement is particularly false. Heres why. The game is not simply as hard or easy as the PLAYER makes it. It is as easy as the company makes it. As to whose fault is it, if the game doesnt require at least some learning curve, then it is no fault of any players that they can succeed by "swinging their nice looking club" - and it is also no fault of their own to expect that to be the formula for success later on.

    If they didnt NEED to invest any time learning, it cant be expected of them to do so. Setting that expectation at the same time not supporting the environment being conducive to requiring it to succeed, is a direct contradiction.
    Chai I think you've been playing a little too long and have forgotten what it's like to be new. Yes things are easier now however there is still a lot a new player needs to learn before the game is easy and "autocomplete" for them. Things are easy and autocomplete for vets but I really don't think there are many new players that would find elites to be that way.

  14. #214
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Chai I think you've been playing a little too long and have forgotten what it's like to be new. Yes things are easier now however there is still a lot a new player needs to learn before the game is easy and "autocomplete" for them. Things are easy and autocomplete for vets but I really don't think there are many new players that would find elites to be that way.
    probably not to a new player, but there has been many changes over the last couple years now that have dumbed down the challenge of the game to support soloists and new players. i could do a "GET OFF MY LAWN!" if people think elite is challenging to them, but i wont go there.

    the expectation for auto complete is the attitude mainly of vet players. this clashes with new players that join vet player groups which brings up the whole argument of being self sufficient and being prepared and learning curve. a good example of auto complete can be seen here on the forums when players complain certain quests are too hard, when 2 years they were actually hard. or look at the lfm and see how many zerg, BYOH lfms we see on a daily basis compared to non zerg lfms.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    should have been etc for etcetera typing fast and not looking close and thinking.
    Thanks, I've just been seeing that a lot lately and been wondering if I missed a memo or something.

    and unless I'm misunderstanding what you typed you find

    "hey everyone"
    "hey can I get a share real quick"

    to be rude

    while you don't find

    "Share PLZ"
    to be rude for the first comments out of someones mouth?
    Actually I don't find any of those to be rude. I would find "give me a share" to be rude though as it's a demand rather than a request. That said, it's really subjective what anyone considers to be forward or offensive, which is where I draw the line for rudeness. So I find minimal and superficial to be the best bet when dealing with those not I don't know well. I just wish others would feel the same way so I could quit being accused of being rude when I honestly answer the good old "How are you?" question with something like "A bit constipated, and yourself?".

    So, basically, while I don't find any of them to be rude, neither do I find their absence to be particularly rude either.

  16. #216
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    sometimes people come across as rude when the first thing they type in chat is "share plz" or voice it. but other times i know some people not from USA do that and they struggle with the language. i know a bunch of people like that and they are not talkative, but they are friendly. i know its not hard to say hi first before asking for a share, but remember this is not a game played only in America.

  17. #217
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I'll go one further. The definition of a bad player is now extended to those who do not self-heal, whether they need to self-heal or not.
    .
    I can accept that.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And that's really the issue with DDO right now . . . just not enough people playing it.

    With a larger population it's easier to find people in your level range that fit your style of play.

    With the ghost-town that is DDO post MoTU . . . it's not the case.

    So Turbine's solution . . . is to increase the level cap . . . to yet further dilute this.

    Ponderous, friggin ponderous.

    A few thoughts form somebody who has only played the game for a month or so...
    (Also somebody who is always looking for a group rather than looking for members)

    Let me qualify and say this is my first experience with an online game, and I'm a bit of an old timer who hadn'd played DnD since before there needed to be a DDO / PnP distinction. I see BB and think dial-up bulletin-board so I'm not likely the standard new player population. However, I think my experiences and viewpoint are likely common of new players.

    It is apparent that most of the existing players don't comprehend or remember the steep learning curve that this game can be. Just how is it that a new player is to learn the game and jump in with the level of understanding that everyone seems to expect? Point is – you can't expect new players to understand everything you put in a looking for group message if you use cryptic (at least the first time you see them) messages. Heck, I thought BYOH stood for bring your own healer – drawing from the analogy BYOB used to stand for bring your own booze -– not be able to brew your own booze at a party by yourself, sit in the corner, do only what I want you to do without me telling you what it is, don't ask anything from me, don't expect any help, don't slow me down, and don't bother me in any way. First group I tried to join (at level 7) kicked me out as soon as I called my heal hire – to meet the requirement of BYOH. Gave me such a great experience I didn't try a group again until Ginthold. Told the group leader I was new and did not know the area before clicking join (was posted just for the slayer/rare/explorer). Joined and was immediately called a piker because I could not find my way to the group. (Anyone on these forums remember what it was like to try and find your way around Ginthold for the first time by yourself without a map?) Everyone in the group left within a few minutes after I joined saying they would not play with a piker except for one person. That person actually took the time to tell me what a piker was, find me, show me a round, and give me a few pointers. Had that one person not shown a little kindness, I would likely have concluded that game was full of elitist, my way or the highway players and either continued to play solo or given up on the game entirely.

    This thread has a lot of talk about TR players expected to know everything – it is my experience that any first life toon over about 7 or 8 is expected to know everything. I started a new character just so I could join lower level groups where there seems to be a bit more tolerance to new players and have continued to have mixed interactions. I always tell group leaders before joining that I am new – over half either tell me to find another group or don't bother to respond at all. I appreciate being told no – kinda rude to not even bother responding. The groups I have joined, I have usually enjoyed and usually end up running several quests. Simple suggestion for the person creating the message, be a bit clearer in the message about what you want – example does “know quest” mean that you know the quest or are only interested in people that “know the quest”. I have really come to appreciate the people who post with “all welcome.”

    Now on to the reason for my rambling – If you enjoy the game and want it to continue, as a community you need to do a better job of supporting and encouraging new players. Bragging about mow much better you are than everyone else won't mean much when the game gets shut down for lack or revenue generation. As was already mentioned, there seem to be far fewer players now. Simple economics say that if the trend continues, it is only a matter of time. One simple act of kindness and a little help from a single person got me hooked on the game. Take out that one act and I'm gone like so many other people seem to be.

    For all you “need to be self sufficient” players – the wiki generally points people to playing a pure barb or fighter first – with no mention of how to self heal. I've learned a few things but I still would have no idea how to be a first time player and create a pure self healing barb (without resorting to a half elf which the wiki points out as bad for a barb...) so please point me in the right direction, I like to learn.

    Lastly – I still don't know what BB is and nobody I've asked has bothered to respond when I ask about their group post, can't find it in the wiki or forums (most likely there – just too generic of a term) so I'd love it is someone could help out a noob and tell me. Otherwise I'll just continue to treat it as a red flag and avoid any group with BB in the message.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    DISCAIMER: I am not calling out people that want to play in whatever way they like. If they are having fun, fine. Just don’t nerf me because others are too lazy to do for themselves.
    Not that I particularly disagree with the sentiment. But it seems unrealistic to ask not to be nerfed if that's what they feel will help keep the other "95%" of their customers happy.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What I actually stated: The irony here is the dumbing down of the game where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge is supported by the same folks who complain about people not knowing how to play when they hit their LFMs - which is a direct contradiction in logic.

    The only thing distorted here is quoting of choice words in the sentence not including all words from beginning to end giving a different premise to argue against, a premise I might add, that I did not post in the first place.
    I essentially highlighted the two main points of the sentence which did not change those points at all. Putting them back into the complete sentence doesn't give it any different meaning except adding your "aside" about people who support the dumbing down of the game. If the game is so easy that it is autocomplete then nothing needs to be learned to do that autocomplete - it's "auto".

    Nope, we are talking about the OPs definition of knowing how to play, which he states as an absolute which according to him "all smart people follow" - I grinned right before I completely refuted that premise.
    I do have to wonder about anyone who doesn't understand that taking damage means you need healing, which means you either need your own or someone else to do it. Its the most basic gaming premise.

    Understanding that if you want peopel to understand what you call "simple logic" you must insert them into an environment where they will learn it.
    Nope, that's the nice thing about simple logic. Its like a child who gets burned by a pan - now they understand that the pan is hot. Simple observation. As I quest when an enemy hits me I take damage. I observe that I have a finite HP bar. If nothing gives me those HP back it will run out and I will die. I don't need to be taught that. It's simple observation.

    Supporting the environment not being conducive to where it is not NEEDED - and at the same time expecting them to play according to that definition, is a direct contradiction. The reality of the situation is that player did not learn survivability playing through 20 levels on a first life and 9-11 levels on a second life - even enough to understand they need cure pots - due to the very fact that the environment they SHOULD HAVE learned this in, DOES NOT teach them this with failure being the penalty until they learn.

    In order to have that expectation at all, you must also support playing in an environment that is realistic to learn this expectation in. If you do not support that environment, then you must understand that you cannot expect players to show up ready for action, by your own definition.
    I disagree that the environment is too easy for beginning players. I defy your assumptions that they ALWAYs join a guild, nevermind with a large guild ship. As someone else mentioned, I don't think you remember what its like to be new. I have a brand new player in my group right now. Despite having played other MMOs, running with a bunch of seasoned players and having access to a guild ship he used to die all the time. He does not find it easy. And he is learning every day despite having these advantages.

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