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  1. #41
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosEmperorDragon View Post
    The way I see it is if our groups effectiveness (DPS or whatever) is gimped because of this attitude that ultimate self-sufficiency is vital to running quests, I'll be pulling out my throwing axe so I'm on par with the group.
    You seem to imply that five characters with a dedicated healer are somehow automatically better than six self-sufficient characters. Yet it isn't expensive in the slightest to twist in Rejuvenation Cocoon and slot Devotion into your build somewhere. My experience with Epic Elite, both as DPS and as a healer, has been that groups with self-sufficient characters go far smoother than groups without.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I would have far more respect for the opinions of those who claim that groups are more efficient with someone playing the healing role.... if they were playing the healer... and not the guy with the greataxe....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  3. #43
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I would have far more respect for the opinions of those who claim that groups are more efficient with someone playing the healing role.... if they were playing the healer... and not the guy with the greataxe....
    Yes, but they have to blame someone for their inability to keep themselves alive if problems occur.
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  4. #44
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosEmperorDragon View Post
    Agreed, and that's fine. I also agree that the build type you referred to is excellent. What we're talking about here is the majority of gamers, though. Admittedly I'm a bit biased, but what I see through my tinted lenses are elitist players who feel superior because their build can self-heal, whatever that build may be, however bad that build may be.
    Non self-healers are inferior.

    It's just how it is.

    They are the chimps who never quite evolved to crude stone tools and fire.

    Having to have a healer in a group to cover the weakness of your character overall makes the group weaker. Every BYOH EE I've been in has been smoother than the ones that required a healer.

    Waiting for a healer make leveling take way too long, besides CSW pots should cover anyone completely until at least level 12.

  5. #45
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Non self-healers are inferior.

    It's just how it is.

    They are the chimps who never quite evolved to crude stone tools and fire.

    Having to have a healer in a group to cover the weakness of your character overall makes the group weaker. Every BYOH EE I've been in has been smoother than the ones that required a healer.

    Waiting for a healer make leveling take way too long, besides CSW pots should cover anyone completely until at least level 12.
    And with slots on so much of the gear now, especially on lowbie items/quest rewards, there is no excuse not to have SF pots on a TR. Get them, learn how to use them if you are not a WF.

  6. #46
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    And with slots on so much of the gear now, especially on lowbie items/quest rewards, there is no excuse not to have SF pots on a TR. Get them, learn how to use them if you are not a WF.
    And if you are a non self-healing WF melee delete your toon.

  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I would have far more respect for the opinions of those who claim that groups are more efficient with someone playing the healing role.... if they were playing the healer... and not the guy with the greataxe....
    THis depends on the quest, but ive seen as many if not more quests be more efficient with someone playing a healing role versus just having 6 toons who can self heal.

    But then it comes down to how we measure efficiency.

    1. If we only measure it as "time inside quest" then having someone play a healer is better.

    2. If we measure it as "time waiting for healer + time inside quest" at times just having 6 self sufficient people is better. It goes back to the mentality that divines arent there to keep the rest of the group propped up, realizing they will never fully win the "Im not going to heal anyone anymore" argument, so they simply dont PUG.

    Another major part of the issue is that its not just people playing as 6 self sufficient toons, its 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance. The severe lack of cooperation can lead to a wipe. When I was first learning to play epics back in 2009 when they were close to the difficulty of EE today, when a wipe would occur, all of the mobs alive would be at or around half HP. A more cooperative group will kill each mob and move to the next, and each time a mob falls thats one less damage source attacking the party. 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance will attack different mobs and if they werent ready for it, get overwhelmed, not adjust their tactics, wipe, and then the "everyone elses fault but my own" attitude kicks in....if it werent for these 5 other noobs we would have completed, right?

  8. #48
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    THis depends on the quest, but ive seen as many if not more quests be more efficient with someone playing a healing role versus just having 6 toons who can self heal.

    But then it comes down to how we measure efficiency.

    1. If we only measure it as "time inside quest" then having someone play a healer is better.

    2. If we measure it as "time waiting for healer + time inside quest" at times just having 6 self sufficient people is better. It goes back to the mentality that divines arent there to keep the rest of the group propped up, realizing they will never fully win the "Im not going to heal anyone anymore" argument, so they simply dont PUG.

    Another major part of the issue is that its not just people playing as 6 self sufficient toons, its 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance. The severe lack of cooperation can lead to a wipe. When I was first learning to play epics back in 2009 when they were close to the difficulty of EE today, when a wipe would occur, all of the mobs alive would be at or around half HP. A more cooperative group will kill each mob and move to the next, and each time a mob falls thats one less damage source attacking the party. 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance will attack different mobs and if they werent ready for it, get overwhelmed, not adjust their tactics, wipe, and then the "everyone elses fault but my own" attitude kicks in....if it werent for these 5 other noobs we would have completed, right?
    The "full-******" that requires a healer to be able to stay alive needs to pull the weight of two people to be worth his party slot.

    This sure as heck isn't the case in any part of the game at this time at any point in level 1-25.

    Big difference between now and 2009 is there are many more self-healing options available. Then the "hjeal meh!" barb was a great option, now it's a dinosaur.

  9. #49
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Non self-healers are inferior.

    It's just how it is.


    They are the chimps who never quite evolved to crude stone tools and fire.

    Having to have a healer in a group to cover the weakness of your character overall makes the group weaker. Every BYOH EE I've been in has been smoother than the ones that required a healer.

    Waiting for a healer make leveling take way too long, besides CSW pots should cover anyone completely until at least level 12.
    This x 1000.

    With that said, I could understand if you built a character without said self-healing for a static group with a healer, or to fill a particular role for raids or something.

    Toons without self-healing have their place. But that place is not in pugs dedicated to xp, particularly ones that advertise BYOH.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eden2760 View Post
    This x 1000.

    With that said, I could understand if you built a character without said self-healing for a static group with a healer, or to fill a particular role for raids or something.

    Toons without self-healing have their place. But that place is not in pugs dedicated to xp, particularly ones that advertise BYOH.
    With this said . . . there is no malice in my observation. it's just the reality of the game has shifted. With divines being meh right now and nobody wants to play a healbot it's just really a bad situation for those who cannot self-heal.

    Adapt or die. The game has changed.

    Will the ENH pass bring about a change? I cannot say. I can say though that it never bothered me when FvS were the borderline ubber-class, slightly over-powered but that was okay because the accepted the responsibility of keeping the group alive while they tried to keep up with the PMs in kills.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The mistake being made here is expecting that TR equates to game knowledge. The quests that contain the most learning curve can be trivialized or paid to skip. Getting to 20 once is not really an indication of anything other than having made/bought 1,900,000 XP points.
    While it might be wrong that TR = knowledge I don't think it's wrong to hold TRs to a standard. If they don't meet that standard it is on them, not the person with the expectations.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by eden2760 View Post
    This x 1000.

    With that said, I could understand if you built a character without said self-healing for a static group with a healer, or to fill a particular role for raids or something.

    Toons without self-healing have their place. But that place is not in pugs dedicated to xp, particularly ones that advertise BYOH.
    Erm, that's exactly where these types of toons belong. LFMs are for new and inexperienced players.

  13. #53
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    I draw the line by avoiding players with the superiority complex demonstrated in this thread.

    Makes for enjoyable gameplay for all those in group.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  14. #54
    Community Member shibe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Pretty soon reality will hit you and you'll realize nobody heals anymore.

    If you're not able to heal yourself have fun waiting around while the rest of the server is running quests.

    It's just how things are.
    It is? Maybe for you on your server. We have healers in our guild and occasionally put up LFMs and healers join all the time. I wait only for my guildies and friends to get on to play. Other then that I'm happy playing the way I do.

  15. #55
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    Not making excuses for anyone and their lack of dedication to learning the game, but there may have been other circumstances... I recall an E-Chrono (prior to the new epic system) that was started by a character that was somewhat well known by folks in the group. The leader of the raid was not using voice and limited text chat (lots of flags there); raid was started prematurely, and wiped before it even got underway. As it turns out, the raid leader was the young child of the player who usually plays that character, and decided it would be fun to run their dad's high level character with out him knowing. So, perhaps it was someone's kid taking a joy ride :0.

    I agree that it doesn't take much skill to get to lvl 20 anymore, but it is, IMHO, just how the game is progressing. Someone out there in Turbine's marketing Department observed they were loosing too many newer players because of the time it took to reach cap, that they decided they could make money off of the situation by level skipping mechanic (stones and packages). So they have essentially created a divide between new (can't waste time learning the game and level the hard way, so I'll buy a stone), and the folks that learned the game by doing things the hard way. A whole subculture has basically been created; those who use the stone to gain levels fast to get to the cool content, whilst not learning the game, and those who use the stone to TR extremely fast, and still don't learn the game or develop the skills to be effective. Both serve to create a division between newer and veteran players. Thank the Marketing Gods for that, not the newer players who are taking advantage of it.


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  16. #56
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Just curious. And I'm not saying "new" players, I'm saying "bad" players. I'll get more to that in a second.

    Running through Elite VON4 last night . . . a TR barb joins our no healer group. He then goes off and gets killed running in the opposite direction of the group. Somebody eventually rezes him and he sits at 26 HP the rest of the quest.

    A TR . . . doesn't carry cure pots . . . has no means of healing himself. he became the first person I squelched in over a year.

    So where do you draw the line? When do you expect basic competence?

    Me personally . . . if the character has "wings" I expect them to know *** they are doing. If said barb had been a non-TR I'd have bought him a bunch of pots and let him tag along, on a TR I expect better. Anyone who's made it to 20 should know the basics like bring CSW pots with you as nobody heals anymore.

    Am I expecting too much? Have the Otto's boxes given us a whole "class" of players who are completely clueless?
    i would kick the barbarian out too. There is NO reason for a player to go off on their own die then just stay at low hp the rest of the quest. It doesnt matter if its tr or a new player or anyone in general. there is still no reason for it. what that tells me is not a team player at all. Not willing to keep yourself alive.

    My point is if you're are not willing to do anything like that to help out your teammates what so ever then you're a waste of a party slot to me. Its just as bad as a piker to me. I cant stand someone who just stops without saying a word. i count it along the same thing they chose not to contribute so might as well piked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    THis depends on the quest, but ive seen as many if not more quests be more efficient with someone playing a healing role versus just having 6 toons who can self heal.

    But then it comes down to how we measure efficiency.

    1. If we only measure it as "time inside quest" then having someone play a healer is better.

    2. If we measure it as "time waiting for healer + time inside quest" at times just having 6 self sufficient people is better. It goes back to the mentality that divines arent there to keep the rest of the group propped up, realizing they will never fully win the "Im not going to heal anyone anymore" argument, so they simply dont PUG.

    Another major part of the issue is that its not just people playing as 6 self sufficient toons, its 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance. The severe lack of cooperation can lead to a wipe. When I was first learning to play epics back in 2009 when they were close to the difficulty of EE today, when a wipe would occur, all of the mobs alive would be at or around half HP. A more cooperative group will kill each mob and move to the next, and each time a mob falls thats one less damage source attacking the party. 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance will attack different mobs and if they werent ready for it, get overwhelmed, not adjust their tactics, wipe, and then the "everyone elses fault but my own" attitude kicks in....if it werent for these 5 other noobs we would have completed, right?
    Sorry chai i just don't agree with you at all. i've played self sufficient toons ever since i learned of them and did a lot of byoh groups as well or just groups that filled with no healer so you get put into stay alive or die mentality. A lot of the groups i did went very smoothly. Sure some did solo roles but some also set up the role for the others to take advantage of. A caster or divine bard whatever. Sure some melee would attack their own mobs because its not about soloing. it could be they can kill mobs faster while 2 others work on a different one etc.

    I also had times where we all did work on the same mobs. My point being that is a huge assumption that all groups work like that. If you're a full dps barb with no self healing then what use are you to a group if you're just sitting there relying on another to keep you up. what happens if you join a group no one wants to heal you. What use are you besides wasting a party slot. your potential is wasted. what happens if the healer gets tired of healing you?

    So yes if it means i do less damage but i stay alive im taking it. If im still completing a quest and im not dead. Yep ill take it. This mentality of mine had helped me complete 13 lives on my main tr. It keeps working. I do my part many times to bring that group up as well if they died. Guess i should go back to soloing huh.

  17. #57
    Founder xberto's Avatar
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    The only thing really "random" in this game, is the players you group with. Ya Take The good, ya take the bad, ya take em both and there ya have The Facts of life, the facts of life.
    Its not very often one bad player can kill my fun. No Lines
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  18. #58
    Community Member shibe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I don't have a problem with bad players. Only rude ones.



    I don't really buy into the idea that Otto's boxes are creating an influx of noobs in high level content. Playing through all the levels only once (or even twice) does little to give players an understanding of game mechanics and strategies, so I don't think Otto's box users are much worse off than if they had taken the long route.
    Buying an Otto's box takes some cash or a lot of turbine points. That means time or money invested. That means the person likes/loves the game enough to invest one or both time/money. That just means we will have more players that will keep the game running.

  19. #59
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I draw the line at the point where a bad player blames everyone else for their shortcomings. Especially when they are abusive about it.

    When a person admits they have a shortcoming they can grow. I actually disagree that "Wings" should be treated any different than non-winged characters. There are actually non-winged players that have been around for years that are good players. But the TR game is not what they are after. I know I've run into my share of multi-lifers that brag about how many lives they have and how uber they are because of it, but then proceed to be carried to the next shrine all the time blaming lag for their 5 deaths (when it was obvious that running two rooms ahead and gathering 1/2 the dungeons mobs to beat on you was actually the reason they died)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think the problem that many have with the term BYOH is that there are misunderstandings of what it means. For me BYOH means you have a means of keeping yourself alive, at least the ability to fix minor issues like stat damage, poison, and curses etc.

    But what is often missed by some groups is that BYOH can be a cooperative effort that does not excuse players from helping other players out of a jam even if it is a simple as a Rage Clickie.

    Basically BYOH is not an excuse to not work together, in fact to me it is a contract for greater cooperation as each member takes responsibility for the survival of everyone.

  20. #60
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuleAxe View Post
    Not making excuses for anyone and their lack of dedication to learning the game, but there may have been other circumstances... I recall an E-Chrono (prior to the new epic system) that was started by a character that was somewhat well known by folks in the group. The leader of the raid was not using voice and limited text chat (lots of flags there); raid was started prematurely, and wiped before it even got underway. As it turns out, the raid leader was the young child of the player who usually plays that character, and decided it would be fun to run their dad's high level character with out him knowing. So, perhaps it was someone's kid taking a joy ride :0.

    I agree that it doesn't take much skill to get to lvl 20 anymore, but it is, IMHO, just how the game is progressing. Someone out there in Turbine's marketing Department observed they were loosing too many newer players because of the time it took to reach cap, that they decided they could make money off of the situation by level skipping mechanic (stones and packages). So they have essentially created a divide between new (can't waste time learning the game and level the hard way, so I'll buy a stone), and the folks that learned the game by doing things the hard way. A whole subculture has basically been created; those who use the stone to gain levels fast to get to the cool content, whilst not learning the game, and those who use the stone to TR extremely fast, and still don't learn the game or develop the skills to be effective. Both serve to create a division between newer and veteran players. Thank the Marketing Gods for that, not the newer players who are taking advantage of it.
    on the other hand here is another problem. How do you know its the kid or the player behind the screen. I dont ask every person hey is that your kid playing or you. Some will lie, some will have their kids play. who knows. That is the biggest problem. you never know. So sadly if people do blacklist you for whatever reason its the price that you have to pay i guess.

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