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  1. #1
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default Where do you draw the line with bad players?

    Just curious. And I'm not saying "new" players, I'm saying "bad" players. I'll get more to that in a second.

    Running through Elite VON4 last night . . . a TR barb joins our no healer group. He then goes off and gets killed running in the opposite direction of the group. Somebody eventually rezes him and he sits at 26 HP the rest of the quest.

    A TR . . . doesn't carry cure pots . . . has no means of healing himself. he became the first person I squelched in over a year.

    So where do you draw the line? When do you expect basic competence?

    Me personally . . . if the character has "wings" I expect them to know *** they are doing. If said barb had been a non-TR I'd have bought him a bunch of pots and let him tag along, on a TR I expect better. Anyone who's made it to 20 should know the basics like bring CSW pots with you as nobody heals anymore.

    Am I expecting too much? Have the Otto's boxes given us a whole "class" of players who are completely clueless?

  2. #2
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Stoners man ... stoners.

    Been that way since they started getting their fix ahead of MOTU and now that the cops are basically looking the other way well dopers are gonna be dopey right.

    Just sayin'


  3. #3
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Me personally . . . if the character has "wings" I expect them to know *** they are doing... If said barb had been a non-TR I'd have bought him a bunch of pots and let him tag along, on a TR I expect better. Anyone who's made it to 20 should know the basics like bring CSW pots with you as nobody heals anymore.

    Am I expecting too much? Have the Otto's boxes given us a whole "class" of players who are completely clueless?
    First big mistake imo. Wings != experience or skill, when anyone can pop a fifty pot, combine it with a box, and be a TR in a single day.

    With that said, I don't think you're expecting too much; however, I think you'll be expecting too much if you thing things will change. I can *not* count the number of times I've posted "BYOH (no hirelings)", "Know it", etc. type of LFMs to which people will join and either pop a hireling or ask for a share for something like Tempest's Spine.

    And I think that's the problem. LFM messages either get unread, or willfully ignored far too often.

    This is kind of why I think Stones of Experience (and possibly xp pots) should be restricted to those who are at least TR-1s or maybe even TR-2s. You shouldn't be able to bypass those critical first steps in learning DDO common knowledge and common sense.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The mistake being made here is expecting that TR equates to game knowledge. The quests that contain the most learning curve can be trivialized or paid to skip. Getting to 20 once is not really an indication of anything other than having made/bought 1,900,000 XP points.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #5
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Still gonna stick with my "hand-hold new toons, tough-love for mooks with wings" thing. It's just easier than asking people "hey, are you terrible?"

  6. #6
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    Posting a know it, byoh LFM just means you will be filled with people that don't know it or bring their own health. I don't know why this is, but it just is.

    Perhaps he thought there'd be a hireling. Perhaps that's the standard he's used too. I don't know. This is just what you get when you pug. In my opinion, if you are going to use the LFM panel, might as well allow someone to use a hire. Just seems to go more smoothly that way, and it's a small price to pay for peace of mind.

  7. #7
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Posting a know it, byoh LFM just means you will be filled with people that don't know it or bring their own health. I don't know why this is, but it just is.

    Perhaps he thought there'd be a hireling. Perhaps that's the standard he's used too. I don't know. This is just what you get when you pug. In my opinion, if you are going to use the LFM panel, might as well allow someone to use a hire. Just seems to go more smoothly that way, and it's a small price to pay for peace of mind.
    This is where I have to disagree.

    I'm posting the LFM. It's my belief that the LFM constitutes a contract of sorts between myself and the person who wants to join (e.g. Tokens reserved). If I feel the person doesn't meet the qualifications, then I'll let them know and then remove them.

    I don't go out of my way to be a <insert expletive here> about it, but I don't feel bad about it either. I make it very clear what is expected. If you click and don't meet the requirements, you're either illiterate or mentally challenged, and we'll part ways.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by eden2760 View Post
    This is where I have to disagree.

    I'm posting the LFM. It's my belief that the LFM constitutes a contract of sorts between myself and the person who wants to join (e.g. Tokens reserved). If I feel the person doesn't meet the qualifications, then I'll let them know and then remove them.

    I don't go out of my way to be a <insert expletive here> about it, but I don't feel bad about it either. I make it very clear what is expected. If you click and don't meet the requirements, you're either illiterate or mentally challenged, and we'll part ways.
    I understand your point, but when you fight reality, you never win. The reality is that people will continue to join BYOH groups without bringing their own health. And the reality is that they will continue to cost ten percent. In the end, allowing a person to bring a hire will probably increase overall XP.

    While I'm sure this wasn't a devastating moment for the troll, it at least left somewhat of a bad taste, since it squelched the person and then made a post about it. If that person had popped a hire, would it be better or worse for troll? I don't know, I can't answer that. For me, personally, the problem has made me just stop pugging, but when I do, I allow a hire, since it almost always goes better.

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Posting a know it, byoh LFM just means you will be filled with people that don't know it or bring their own health. I don't know why this is, but it just is.

    Perhaps he thought there'd be a hireling. Perhaps that's the standard he's used too. I don't know. This is just what you get when you pug. In my opinion, if you are going to use the LFM panel, might as well allow someone to use a hire. Just seems to go more smoothly that way, and it's a small price to pay for peace of mind.
    I absolutely allow hirelings in my group. I completely understand that it's the cheapest way for a non-healer to keep himself alive.

    I just don't summon them myself.

  10. #10
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    wings don't mean anything anymore. a few years ago they actually meant something. today, with all the boosts in xp and skipping stones available to us and the "need for speed" "hurry up and cap" its way too easy to TR. what took players an average of a month depending on play time and if you followed the zerg to cap TR guide, now can take a few days while waiting out the 1 week timer. experience, knowledge and respect used to go along with wings. now everybody does it and can be done easily and quickly bypassing content without having to learn to play.

  11. #11
    Community Member shibe's Avatar
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    Default Omg *** byoh ok?

    I say just be friendly. I have been playing on and off for a year and a half with a few toons. One of them is going to TR soon for the first time. I still have questions and do not always do things right. Just because I have wings does not mean I have memorized the quest or can heal myself. I like playing with a live cleric or FS who can heal the group. Self healing can be hard on some of the quests. Don't worry I won't join your LFM but since there is no restriction on who can click on them you can expect someone to miss understand BYOH and join the group. Hell when I first saw BYOH I had no idea what the hell it meant. New players may not either. If you really do not want someone to join the LFM maybe spell it out. When you mention that the player should also know the quest in the LFM it also could imply that you want to go fast or zerg. That means that people are trying to get XP fast and not enjoy the game. I typically avoid those as well. I prefer to take my time with a group who likes to have fun and not take it too seriously.

  12. #12
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    When I do actually bother to set up groups, which in all honesty doesn't happen that often I will take whoever.
    Sometimes they die or sometimes I'm surprised by their resilience, I have seen terrible third life toons, I have seen awesome first life toons, I have been shocking on occasions myself.

    One thing that really gets my goat though is Healing classes that post LFMs (not BYOH ones by the way) for elite streaks and then play like complete tool bags when it comes to the crunch part of those quests... almost every toon I make has some way of keeping itself alive ( I have 17 atm... ) but sometimes that healer has to actually heal and not be the first person to go 'DING' because they absolutely have to be front line, up to their necks in it...... Sure being a battle cleric, melee/evoker fvs or a clonk is fun, but sometimes, just sometimes you need to concentrate on healing!
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by eden2760 View Post
    This is where I have to disagree.

    I'm posting the LFM. It's my belief that the LFM constitutes a contract of sorts between myself and the person who wants to join (e.g. Tokens reserved). If I feel the person doesn't meet the qualifications, then I'll let them know and then remove them.

    I don't go out of my way to be a <insert expletive here> about it, but I don't feel bad about it either. I make it very clear what is expected. If you click and don't meet the requirements, you're either illiterate or mentally challenged, and we'll part ways.
    The problem here is that people won't respect the leader or the writtings on the LFM anyways because, like it or not, they are there because they want to run that quest. You are just a mean to their end at this point.

    I've been on a TR train since 2 months (+/- 1 TR per 10 days) and i've pugged alot. At first, I told myself let's just take anyone and be patient if needs be. But when I realized I was compromising my own playstyle and giving time to people that just didn't care or respect me/LFM, I gave up. Now I open a LFM, run to the quest and once i'm 2mins IP I just remove it. I have learned that bad (skills or attitude) players will often sneak in and click once it's IP for a bit more than that.

    For me it's unconceivable to act like that but once again I know what a micro society is and it in fact does reflect the behaviours we see in real life. Sad but true.
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  14. #14
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So where do you draw the line? When do you expect basic competence?
    I'll address those in reverse order:

    •I only expect (any level of) competence when soloing or questing with people I know.

    •Attitude is the #1 determining factor in where I draw the line. We've all had that "Doh! Forgot to re-up (heal pots/spell components/scrolls). It happens. Other people are in the game less than a week, and already on a second or third life - because they bought it. Vet status -> Ottos -> tag along with elite streak to cap; TR & repeat. If they fix the "Doh!" moment between quests, it's all good. If they're simply too new to have learned about the importance of pots (cure/curse/etc), but heed advice and acquire needed supplies (plat help provided if needed), it's all good. If they refuse to take any accountability for themselves... That's a bootable offense.

    I'm hesitant to blame the "P2W" stuff as the source of the issue. While I think it certinly (and unfortunately) enables new players to get into situations ahead of their place in the learning curve, I don't think it generates bad attitudes/poor players - some people just are.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  15. #15
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    I expect puggers to be awful all the time. I pretty much will only pug if there is a core that can complete the quest already and just want more company. That way the only surprises I get are pleasant. I'm not surprised often, maybe 1 person a night with a night of heavy pugging.

  16. #16
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    I have only two reasons to kick someone from my groups:

    1) They are silently piking (If you are going AFK, tell the others)

    2) They are activelly playing against the group (killing venerated, messing with puzzles, zerging on a non-zerg run, etc).

    I believe 1 is self-explanatory. If you join my group, enter the quest, and stand at the entrance without sending a word, we will reform around you once we complete. If you do the same, but are not inside a instance, you will be kicked. People that are going AFK and explain the reason ("brb phone" or such) are OK.

    There is a small notice on #2, however. The griefing must be active. Someone doing it wrong from inexperience or even plain mistake is ok. The problem is people that goes against the group tactics and don't listen to advise or direct orders. I don't care if you are a fantastic player. If you are "doing your stuff" while in a group, even when the leader directly say you to not do that, you are not being a team player, and will be kicked as soon as possible.

    After leading pugs for some time you get a feeling of people that are trying, but dont know how (like a 800 HP barbarian trying to drink cure potions while in combat), people that have no idea what to do and wait an order, and people that are just messing with you. The major key to find which one is them is directly asking about what the hell they are doing.

    I never squelched anyone (other than gold sellers) in the last 6 years playing this game.
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  17. #17
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibe View Post
    I say just be friendly. I have been playing on and off for a year and a half with a few toons. One of them is going to TR soon for the first time. I still have questions and do not always do things right. Just because I have wings does not mean I have memorized the quest or can heal myself. I like playing with a live cleric or FS who can heal the group. Self healing can be hard on some of the quests. Don't worry I won't join your LFM but since there is no restriction on who can click on them you can expect someone to miss understand BYOH and join the group. Hell when I first saw BYOH I had no idea what the hell it meant. New players may not either. If you really do not want someone to join the LFM maybe spell it out. When you mention that the player should also know the quest in the LFM it also could imply that you want to go fast or zerg. That means that people are trying to get XP fast and not enjoy the game. I typically avoid those as well. I prefer to take my time with a group who likes to have fun and not take it too seriously.
    Pretty soon reality will hit you and you'll realize nobody heals anymore.

    If you're not able to heal yourself have fun waiting around while the rest of the server is running quests.

    It's just how things are.

  18. #18
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    The problem here is that people won't respect the leader or the writtings on the LFM anyways because, like it or not, they are there because they want to run that quest. You are just a mean to their end at this point.
    I wish people would remember this when people come here crying when they are booted from a party. If someone shows little respect for zerg LFM I have up, then I could give a damn if I upset them. If they cry, oh well. These idiots make me wanna cry.

    OP, if some gimp shows up and does not meet the requirements, they are fair game. Go off on them and then they may think twice about joining a group that is not meant for them. If they quit the game, oh well. It just means I will not have to encounter them in the future.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Go off on them and then they may think twice about joining a group that is not meant for them.
    But lfm description doesn't mean jack anymore so it can confuse new folks or they get the wrong idea about a particular type of lfm.
    There are too many tools these days posting lfms which they don't meet the standard for themselves.
    elite, know it , need guide
    elite byoh bss, only cleric fvs ticked
    elite ip. they are looking pretty on the ship
    hard farm, solo tower, you join, they are all dead
    elite byoh, you join on cleric, suddenly noone can hjeal themselves and is just awful.
    Last edited by Veles; 07-16-2013 at 07:16 PM.

  20. #20
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Haha OP you are expecting too much, i have come across completionist's in game who are like that barbarian you described. We had one everyone in guild was talking about..........dying over and over in quests by doing stupid stuff and the guy had 20+ past lives. But he would often put his own lfms up and people would join and drag him through the content. yay pike your way to completionist . I guess he has tons of time to play the game and things like 50% pots and stones would of helped his tr addiction.

    One example of his stupidity is on his dwarven sorc (he always plays dwarves) he would zerg ahead get aggro of a whole bunch of mobs then run around desperately taking damage till he died over and over, even at level 19 he didnt have any umd for scrolls he expected to be healed no csw pots no curse pots or anything else.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-16-2013 at 07:25 PM.

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