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  1. #121
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Does anyone know this for a fact? I'm serious when I ask that.
    We've done EE Sobrien Beat down tests. The full-retards barbs score well but are not worth two party slots.

    The problem is if a barb doesn't go full-retard (cleaving, surrounded, damaging themselves) their damage takes a huge hit. Will this change with the ENH pass? I hope better options are available.

    I had a guidlie literally get mad when he self-healing melee got a better time than he ESOS full-retard barb.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-17-2013 at 05:40 PM.

  2. #122
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    There are literally dozens of scenarios I could cite.
    Never had a problem with running out of self-healing but then I stick to Rejuvenation Cocoon and carry SP potions for backup. You don't even need expensive potions, even the simplest of SP potions will get you at least one or two uses back. If you can tolerate farming I would even recommend trying to get a bauble from Weapon Shipment.
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  3. #123
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Let's exclude EDs for the time being as the mechanic really tends to muddy the waters based on which ED you're using of all the EDs you have.

    Does that 10 - 15% DPS difference include the cool-down on manyshot (which is frickin' extensive)?
    Excluding EDs is stupid, EDs are here and part of the game.

  4. #124
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Who cares about epic leveling, a brain dead chimp can run eh an en to cap at 25, then farm id or rusted blades till they have a maxed main destiny and decent twist options.

    As far as heroic goes once again any gimp can level to 20. A fleshy archmage can level to 20, a halfling thrower build can level to 20, nothing in heroic requires max dps or needs it.
    This is just plain irrelevant.

    If that's the case, then a single toon with a hjealbot is considered a "self-healing build."

    And I so way disagree with you that heroic quests don't require max DPS. That is, unless, you run epic quests over-level on a multi TR. First or second life, in epic, without optimal gear you are hard-pressed to do elite at-level, solo. And when I say solo, I mean no hirelings.

    That's 40 levels of adventuring.

  5. #125
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    ok I can say this despite people want to give me **** about being self sufficient and not having to rely on a nanny. I can't tell you how many times i've saved a group because i was self sufficient. I really would like to know how many barbs out there could say that each time with an honest answer that if the rest of the party was to go down could they do the same? So yet again i will continue to build my self sufficient toons to survive and do damage. i was the last man standing in an elite tor earlier. i was the one resurrecting the cleric and others. Granted it was still a failure because they couldn't pull their part after dying in at the black dragon/fire giant fight.

    They relied on ship buffs and the healer to keep them alive. minute they died or him. it was over for them. i raised the healer first and they got one more person up. The healer and wizard died again then i died. So my point i do like my survival and i will continue to use it as my building of my toons so i can attempt to save groups like this. oh yeah the barb first one dead. just saying.

    Now another note is i'm not saying every barb is a failed experiment either. I'm sure there are some out there that have saved parties but how often? More then likely if they did they were a veteran over someone new. i have an amazon barb. So i built for self sufficient and i still do a good amount of damage.
    even the most self sufficient groups go south sometimes. a barb cant throw a heal, unless they actually built umd into them in which case whats the point of playing a barb than, but they can grab the agro if others are in trouble, they can dismiss rage and use a GH clicky to help up in cap toons and they can run stones back to a shrine. its a trade off just like every other class has to do. the thing about those FOTM builds is that they try to have it all rolled up into 1 bundle. they usually are very good in 1 thing, but are average or above average in everything else.

    a well played barb, or any class/build for that matter, is aware of his surroundings. if theres trouble, quick thinking and action needs to be made before things go too far south. sometimes, just like healers do, players have to be sacrificed for the greater good. if that means killing off the last of the mobs and the healer ends up dying, than hopefully that was the best decision for the good of the group. it is important for barbs to learn to play self sufficient if all they are going to have is pots in case the healer is too busy for them or goes down.

    theres been many times my barb was last one standing and there was many times my barb saved the healer and other party members that were better at staying alive. theres been times, my barb has died for the greater good for the group so they had the chance to get away or someone had the chance to raise up the dead and regroup. the barb class may not have self sufficiency built into it like most other classes and its not a class that everyone can handle playing, but whats more important is how the person behind the character plays the class.

  6. #126
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Excluding EDs is stupid, EDs are here and part of the game.
    ED's are only part of a build for something like 5 levels, if you don't TR.

    There are thousands of hit points that need to be restored or taken away from mobs from levels 1 through 20. That's where your base build needs to carry the load.

    EDs in this discussion is a distraction that only applied to lvl 20 and above...

  7. #127
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Excluding EDs is stupid, EDs are here and part of the game.
    If he's kept to past statements he hasn't bought them and won't because they're p2w. To which if he has kept to that I applaud for sticking to their values but it does make it hard to have a conversation about this when one person doesn't include a major game mechanic.

  8. #128
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    There are thousands of hit points that need to be restored or taken away from mobs from levels 1 through 20. That's where your base build needs to carry the load.
    Heroic levels are pathetic and offer little in the way of challenge. The fact that so many terrible players are managing to get to 20 to TR proves this.
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  9. #129
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This is just plain irrelevant.

    If that's the case, then a single toon with a hjealbot is considered a "self-healing build."

    And I so way disagree with you that heroic quests don't require max DPS. That is, unless, you run epic quests over-level on a multi TR. First or second life, in epic, without optimal gear you are hard-pressed to do elite at-level, solo. And when I say solo, I mean no hirelings.

    That's 40 levels of adventuring.
    It's not irrelevant, very very little in heroic game play is hard. As far as epic elite solo at level yeah you don't do that if your goal is to level. I've ran first life experimental builds to 25 and capped their ed's to see how they perform before I use the build on a tr. Haven't had a problem yet. I don't use hires because they add to scaling and have the ai of a six int barbarian tweaking on meth.
    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ED's are only part of a build for something like 5 levels, if you don't TR.

    There are thousands of hit points that need to be restored or taken away from mobs from levels 1 through 20. That's where your base build needs to carry the load.

    EDs in this discussion is a distraction that only applied to lvl 20 and above...
    I used to think this was an exploit, but it's on the wiki so I'm thinking it's wai now, which means ed's effect every level. Just in lesser ways than at epic level.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destini...Epic_Destinies

  10. #130
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ED's are only part of a build for something like 5 levels, if you don't TR.

    There are thousands of hit points that need to be restored or taken away from mobs from levels 1 through 20. That's where your base build needs to carry the load.

    EDs in this discussion is a distraction that only applied to lvl 20 and above...
    99% of the sub EE content is so trivial it doesn't merit discussion amongst good players.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    And with slots on so much of the gear now, especially on lowbie items/quest rewards, there is no excuse not to have SF pots on a TR. Get them, learn how to use them if you are not a WF.
    Sure there is. Many silverflame favor quests simply suck.

    Maybe you feel that putting up with suckage is a fair price to play a game in a manner that doesn't suck, but personally I'm not of that opinion. I'm here to have fun, not qualify for a special opts team.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The full-retards barbs score well but are not worth two party slots.
    While this is true, that barbarian or another full retard melee advantage doesn't make up for needing another toon babysitting, it offers another option and different challenge for someone willing to hjeal.

    Are you better with 2 self hjealing furies than blitz+nanny ? Almost always, but it can be fun too to nanny a bunch of not completely idiotic playing melee murderers.
    While everything EE is soloable and usually faster to byoh shortman, change of pace is welcome sometimes and you will learn different things as hjealer. But only if your own toon/ability can outweight dumb play of others and it's still enjoyable and not annoying/frustrating.

    Heroic elites/EH, as you said, it's pointless to argue about byoh, any experienced cleric/fvs serves party better if they go full offense.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Does anyone know this for a fact? I'm serious when I ask that.

    let's say you split a barb in such a way as you get self-healing, trapping, and DPS.

    Is the self-healing going to be better than a dedicated healer? No,

    Is the trapping required in every circumstance? No.

    Is the DPS going to be as good as someone who builds for it? No.

    More DPS means less time to kill mobs, and thereby take less damage. By gimping DPS, you place more of a reliance on self-healing, of which you are not the best, and so you need to take extra time to kill mobs AND heal.

    A straight barn kills faster, and the dedicated cleric heals better. Combine the two, you move fairly quickly. I just can't see the "I Can Do It All" types moving just as fast. trapping might be the only hitch.
    Actually the Barb his is own enemey in term of taking damage. Maybe try playing one?

    Also "gimping DPS" by let's say putting point in UMD for self healing... isn't that much of gimping, is it? Same with some APs for healing amp.

    In heroic level, I don't see how it is possible for a Barb to deal more damage VS a caster AoEing everything. Talking overall here, not just single target since that's not what's gonna save you time the most. If you deny that being able to split and clear what has to be cleared isn't faster... well ok. Dreams are fun.
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  14. #134
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    THis depends on the quest, but ive seen as many if not more quests be more efficient with someone playing a healing role versus just having 6 toons who can self heal.

    But then it comes down to how we measure efficiency.

    1. If we only measure it as "time inside quest" then having someone play a healer is better.

    2. If we measure it as "time waiting for healer + time inside quest" at times just having 6 self sufficient people is better. It goes back to the mentality that divines arent there to keep the rest of the group propped up, realizing they will never fully win the "Im not going to heal anyone anymore" argument, so they simply dont PUG.

    Another major part of the issue is that its not just people playing as 6 self sufficient toons, its 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance. The severe lack of cooperation can lead to a wipe. When I was first learning to play epics back in 2009 when they were close to the difficulty of EE today, when a wipe would occur, all of the mobs alive would be at or around half HP. A more cooperative group will kill each mob and move to the next, and each time a mob falls thats one less damage source attacking the party. 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance will attack different mobs and if they werent ready for it, get overwhelmed, not adjust their tactics, wipe, and then the "everyone elses fault but my own" attitude kicks in....if it werent for these 5 other noobs we would have completed, right?
    My point was that the majority of people who have the veiwpoint of "parties that have dedicated healers work better".... are playin gnon-healing tank types.. and not playing healers.

    it would be a different story if a guy playing a Cleric says... "I will heal you, so we will be a more efficient party"... then what we have now which is "heal ME! so we will be a more efficient party!"

    See what I am getting at?

    My opinion is that "I" want to be self sufficient.

    "I" hate waiting for perfect groups. I kno wdarn well that you can do any quest without a perfect group. You can do raidsd without healers for instance....

    I also hate being dependant on others. I want to take care of myself.

    On the other side of the coin.... I hate it when I do play a healing class.. and people can't stay alive if I blink... and force me to use scrols and wands.... when they could be using scrolls wands pots... etc.....

    My toons carry pots! I self heal.

    Yes.. expensive for a new guy... I understand....

    I actually have no problem using my resources to help people.... but I woul dlike to see them try to help themselves...

    and I really, reallym, rreally dislike the babysitting healer role.



    But... I admit that some quests go waaay better with a good healer.
    Even as self sufficient as I try to be, I get saved from sudden deaths quiet often by great healer players....

    There are also some fights that you really need to pour on the DPS.. and they don't work to well if you have to stop and heal up ever two seconds...


    But back to the OP.....

    I have seen this so often...

    Experiences players with zero self healing ability...

    I always rememebr doing an old epic quest where the cleric died.. and none of us could raise.

    I had pots.. but it seemed no one else did.

    I watched them whittle away slowly to death.....
    I eneded up alone.... and eventually died too.

    But IMO, we would have succeeeded if everyone had simply brought pots.

    That quest also taught me that if at all possible, I need to have a means of rasing the dead on my toons.



    I can thnk of tons of other quests where I found myself the last man standing... just because I could self heal.


    it is one thing to run off by yoursel fthinkin gyou can solo half a dungeon.

    It is another to have zero ability to self heal.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  15. #135
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I draw the line by avoiding players with the superiority complex demonstrated in this thread.

    Makes for enjoyable gameplay for all those in group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  16. #136
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Sure there is. Many silverflame favor quests simply suck.

    Maybe you feel that putting up with suckage is a fair price to play a game in a manner that doesn't suck, but personally I'm not of that opinion. I'm here to have fun, not qualify for a special opts team.
    I HATE necro 2.

    Hate it.

    Hate it.

    HATE it.

    Suck it up for a few hours and stop being a drain on groups.

  17. #137
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I was one of the folks demonstrating that self sufficiency was better than specialization in 2008 when almost everyone else was believing the hype the spreadsheet gamers were spreading about specialization being the better way to go. I just dont agree with the absolutism that gets posted about "healers" and "hjeal meh barbs". Hes trying to paint a black and white picture, in a game that is a huge gray area.

    Absolutism in DDO has lead to divines that NEVER heal, and I have demonstrated in my groups that if I have 5 DPS and a healer the group will be far more efficient than a 6 DPS no healer group. My healers arent standing around waiting for people to take damage however, which is the absolutist picture people try to paint when they talk about healing classes. We arent playing a holy trinity MMO here. Adding a healer is not a 0 DPS addition to the party.

    What you are preaching depends on HOW MUCH dps you are sacrificing (again, welcome to the gray area). Good builders can sacrifice 5-10% DPS in order to keep themselves alive in quests. The mediocre builders sacrifice ~half their potential, then contribute less to the group than a healer would, because the healer puts down as much DPS as they do AND HEALS PEOPLE, while the poorly built self sufficient toon only keeps themselves alive and does half the DPS of a specialist build. Also, is the self sufficient toon sacrificing DCs? In the most difficult content this game has to offer, this matters, alot. If your self healing monk cant stun while a specialist monk can in EE, Id take him over you.

    Its not an absolute statement that can be made where peopel can just say one is better than the other outright.
    There is not one size fits all situations best answer...

    I like having good healers in my groups.
    I like not having to stop swiging.

    Actually this is why I like hirelings..... I love haing myu own babysitter. (of course,,, I end up raising and telling him to heal himself..... but still....)

    But I know I prefer the goups full of people who can take care of themselves (and each other).

    roles work.. But I do no tenjoy them.
    And they fail if things go wrong.

    Also... th egame is no tthat hard. You do no t need whatever the 100% best method to finish quests.....

    If someone wants to heal us... great!
    If someone needs healing... I will try to help him... but those guys that need constant babysitting are not fun to run with...

    Much more fun when people can take care of themselves IMO.

    Even more fun when they help each other.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  18. #138
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I HATE necro 2.

    Hate it.

    Hate it.

    HATE it.

    Suck it up for a few hours and stop being a drain on groups.
    I hate the fact that every time I do the underwater one in necro 2, I get the song from finding nemo stuck in my head.

    just keep swimming just keep swimming, what do we do we swim, swim

    Now this thread has it stuck in my head thanks a lot.

  19. #139
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I used to think this was an exploit, but it's on the wiki so I'm thinking it's wai now, which means ed's effect every level. Just in lesser ways than at epic level.
    Well that's interesting. Though I do expect Turbine to eventually change the functionality allowing it.
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  20. #140
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    A barb needing a trapper? Only if his HP is really low, rolls a 1 and lolly gags in the trap. The only deadly traps I have seen that require you to go through/around/over are the poison traps in Red Fang. Barbs will still take damage and need to heal up, but that's the trade off you take with not being an evasion class.

    Without realizing it, I think, you admitted to playing only classes that can be self sufficient and can't understand why a player would not also. That's the attitude and mentality this game has gotten to which makes players feel like they have to play the optimal build with self sufficiency built into it. Never mind the guy who wants to play that max DPS build that survives on pots. The mentality in the game has shifted to self sufficient builds, which are the FOTM builds. Players feel as though they won't get any help from others and have to resort to playing something more fitting for groups.
    It's the second trap that kills the Barbs.

    (and the first one kills the Cleric)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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