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  1. #61
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Erm, that's exactly where these types of toons belong. LFMs are for new and inexperienced players.
    Soloing gets boring, some times I need to add a little bit of stupid into my group to keep things entertaining. And most of the people you meet along the way are decent, just a occasionally you meet somebody who belongs on the short bus.

  2. #62
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I draw the line by avoiding players with the superiority complex demonstrated in this thread.

    Makes for enjoyable gameplay for all those in group.
    I don't have a complex about my superiority.

  3. #63
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibe View Post
    It is? Maybe for you on your server. We have healers in our guild and occasionally put up LFMs and healers join all the time. I wait only for my guildies and friends to get on to play. Other then that I'm happy playing the way I do.
    Different servers have different cultures, that is true. I'm on Ghallanda so YMMV.

    Healer only join LFMs if you say "BYOH" in them

  4. #64
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The "full-******" that requires a healer to be able to stay alive needs to pull the weight of two people to be worth his party slot.
    Nope. In fact, the easiest most efficient way to steamroll dungeons is to have 5 DPS and a healer. If I take the healer out of the equation, the 6th DPS would need to make up for the entire amount of time people re spending keeping themselves alive, which aint gonna happen. Also, healers in this game are not standing around waiting for folks to get damaged. They contribute far more than simply pushing the heal button when the red bar goes down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This sure as heck isn't the case in any part of the game at this time at any point in level 1-25.
    You seem to believe the way you play the game is the way everyone else plays, or even the way the majority plays. This is false. I have multiple static groups going nowdays where there really isnt time wasted getting into groups. I also raid in a guild where there isnt really any time wasted getting into groups either. It is_more_efficient if you have someone playing a healer role. Note that this is not an absolute where one person is doing 100% of the party healing and everyone else is just swinging an ax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Big difference between now and 2009 is there are many more self-healing options available. Then the "hjeal meh!" barb was a great option, now it's a dinosaur.
    False again. This is another observation made due to chosen playstyle.

    If I have 5 "hjeal meh" barbs and a cleric, and you have 6 "self sufficient" barbs/fighters, etc. My group is far more efficient than yours, in orders of magnitude. We steamroll the shinola out of dungeons, while you continually take time outs in order to top off and stay alive. Obsolete? Not even close.

    You continue to speak in terms of absolutes, about a game that is a huge gray area. Being a good healer does not mean standing around waiting for folks to take damage. Being a high DPS melee doesnt mean ignoring all other aspects or not being able to heal themselves.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-17-2013 at 11:23 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #65
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope. In fact, the easiest most efficient way to steamroll dungeons is to have 5 DPS and a healer. If I take the healer out of the equation, the 6th DPS would need to make up for the entire amount of time people re spending keeping themselves alive, which aint gonna happen. Also, healers in this game are not standing around waiting for folks to get damaged.
    I've done both and I cannot say you're right. I think a big part of it is the BYOH crowd is typically better players.

    We've done many an EE with 4 barbs, my ESoS Horc bard, and a hjealbot. They are darned fun actually. Issue is finding a divine willing to do this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You seem to believe the way you play the game is the way everyone else plays,
    No, but is how everybody should play. I'm brilliant and you should follow my example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False again, especially in heroics which is what your story is based on.

    If I have 5 "hjeal meh" barbs and a cleric, and you have 6 "self sufficient" barbs/fighters, etc. My group is far more efficient than yours, in orders of magnitude. We steamroll the shinola out of dungeons, while you continually take time outs in order to top off and stay alive. Obsolete? Not even close.
    Sure, you get your 5 barbs, put up an LFM, wait for a healer. In the meantime I'll have the quest done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You continue to speak in terms of absolutes, about a game that is a huge gray area. Being a good healer does not mean standing around waiting for folks to take damage. Being a high DPS melee doesnt mean ignoring all other aspects or not being able to heal themselves.
    I can speak in best practices. Playing a "hjeal meh!" toon at this point in time is just a dumb idea. Everyone I know who has one leaves them parked on the air ship.

  6. #66
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post

    Sorry chai i just don't agree with you at all. i've played self sufficient toons ever since i learned of them and did a lot of byoh groups as well or just groups that filled with no healer so you get put into stay alive or die mentality. A lot of the groups i did went very smoothly. Sure some did solo roles but some also set up the role for the others to take advantage of. A caster or divine bard whatever. Sure some melee would attack their own mobs because its not about soloing. it could be they can kill mobs faster while 2 others work on a different one etc.

    I also had times where we all did work on the same mobs. My point being that is a huge assumption that all groups work like that. If you're a full dps barb with no self healing then what use are you to a group if you're just sitting there relying on another to keep you up. what happens if you join a group no one wants to heal you. What use are you besides wasting a party slot. your potential is wasted. what happens if the healer gets tired of healing you?

    So yes if it means i do less damage but i stay alive im taking it. If im still completing a quest and im not dead. Yep ill take it. This mentality of mine had helped me complete 13 lives on my main tr. It keeps working. I do my part many times to bring that group up as well if they died. Guess i should go back to soloing huh.
    I was one of the folks demonstrating that self sufficiency was better than specialization in 2008 when almost everyone else was believing the hype the spreadsheet gamers were spreading about specialization being the better way to go. I just dont agree with the absolutism that gets posted about "healers" and "hjeal meh barbs". Hes trying to paint a black and white picture, in a game that is a huge gray area.

    Absolutism in DDO has lead to divines that NEVER heal, and I have demonstrated in my groups that if I have 5 DPS and a healer the group will be far more efficient than a 6 DPS no healer group. My healers arent standing around waiting for people to take damage however, which is the absolutist picture people try to paint when they talk about healing classes. We arent playing a holy trinity MMO here. Adding a healer is not a 0 DPS addition to the party.

    What you are preaching depends on HOW MUCH dps you are sacrificing (again, welcome to the gray area). Good builders can sacrifice 5-10% DPS in order to keep themselves alive in quests. The mediocre builders sacrifice ~half their potential, then contribute less to the group than a healer would, because the healer puts down as much DPS as they do AND HEALS PEOPLE, while the poorly built self sufficient toon only keeps themselves alive and does half the DPS of a specialist build. Also, is the self sufficient toon sacrificing DCs? In the most difficult content this game has to offer, this matters, alot. If your self healing monk cant stun while a specialist monk can in EE, Id take him over you.

    Its not an absolute statement that can be made where peopel can just say one is better than the other outright.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #67
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope. In fact, the easiest most efficient way to steamroll dungeons is to have 5 DPS and a healer.
    Hands down, easiest way to roll EE content is 6 WF Shiradi Sorcs. If you want, throw in an archer or two. Use fog and sleet. Stuff never touches you and you blast through it like it was EN.

  8. #68
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I was one of the folks demonstrating that self sufficiency was better than specialization in 2008 when almost everyone else was believing the hype the spreadsheet gamers were spreading about specialization being the better way to go. I just dont agree with the absolutism the OP is posting about "healers" and "hjeal meh barbs". Hes trying to paint a black and white picture, in a game that is a huge gray area.

    Absolutism in DDO has lead to divines that NEVER heal, and I have demonstrated in my groups that if I have 5 DPS and a healer the group will be far more efficient than a 6 DPS no healer group. My healers arent standing around waiting for people to take damage however, which is the absolutist picture people try to paint when they talk about healing classes. We arent playing a holy trinity MMO here. Adding a healer is not a 0 DPS addition to the party.
    The only thing absolute are your misinterpretations of people's statements.

    Tell me what your divines are doing in EEs besides healing?

    Tell me what other difficulties are remotely hard enough for a divine to need a group or a group a divine?

  9. #69
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    Hands down, easiest way to roll EE content is 6 WF Shiradi Sorcs. If you want, throw in an archer or two. Use fog and sleet. Stuff never touches you and you blast through it like it was EN.
    Thats just meta-ing FOTM builds for the specific era of the game we are in. Before then it was DC casters, and before then it was stun+autocrit. As the game changes, so too does the FOTM. Get ready for monk splash fighter being the thing the nerf-demanders complain about for the next 6 months.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #70
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Thats just meta-ing FOTM builds for the specific era of the game we are in. Before then it was DC casters, and before then it was stun+autocrit. As the game changes, so too does the FOTM. Get ready for monk splash fighter being the thing the nerf-demanders complain about for the next 6 months.
    This is the reality of the game.

    I don't think the 12/6/2 FoTM kensai will dominate, it needs a healer

  11. #71
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The only thing absolute are your misinterpretations of people's statements.

    Tell me what your divines are doing in EEs besides healing?

    Tell me what other difficulties are remotely hard enough for a divine to need a group or a group a divine?
    Its not about NEED - this is another absolute statement, as always.

    The good divines play their entire class in EE, including deleveling, damaging, healing, and instakilling mobs. Its not hard to do with the right combination of debuffs.

    A good FVS for instance is debuffing 50% fort, deleveling mobs, instakilling caster mobs (the ones with the weaker fort saves) or meleeing (depending on build) and providing a few buffs here and there like FOM or DW. Do you think people build endgame FvS to hjeal people? Remember, when EE first came out, FvS was the class soloing most EE content before others were. What are they doing besides healing? Everything.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #72
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is the reality of the game.

    I don't think the 12/6/2 FoTM kensai will dominate, it needs a healer
    Its the reality of the game for people who gravitate to FOTM builds - which is by far not the majority of players.

    That FOTM kensai monk abomination is OP on lamannia right now - if the track record holds true, it will golive regardless of feedback provided and people will start building them, just like the blizt in 2009.

    With half elves in the game, no one NEEDS a healer - and that race just happens to be a good one for FOTM builders.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #73
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not about NEED - this is another absolute statement, as always.

    The good divines play their entire class in EE, including deleveling, damaging, healing, and instakilling mobs. Its not hard to do with the right combination of debuffs.

    A good FVS for instance is debuffing 50% fort, deleveling mobs, instakilling caster mobs (the ones with the weaker fort saves) or meleeing (depending on build) and providing a few buffs here and there like FOM or DW.
    EE now is NOT what it was when MoTU first hit. What could be done in U14 is not relevant now.

    Forget buffs, they are all available to any player who puts a little effort into their toons.

    Insta-killing . . . really? Sure if you don't minds spending 150 SP a kill. 1-2 energy drains are needed for a maxed divine's necro DC.

    Meleeing? Sure you can do some damage but it really is meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Do you think people build endgame FvS to hjeal people? Remember, when EE first came out, FvS was the class soloing most EE content before others were. What are they doing besides healing? Everything.
    WERE doing. What they WERE doing is irrelevant compared to what ACTUALLY WORKS NOW. I don't care what they could do a year ago. You think the saves aren't going to get higher in Shadowfail?

    In Turbine's infinite wisdom we now see saves so ridiculous that DC casting is pretty much off the menu.

    What's that leave you with?

    I'd be pretty ****ed if I put a lot of effort into an FvS to see where the game is now.

  14. #74
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its the reality of the game for people who gravitate to FOTM builds - which is by far not the majority of players.

    That FOTM kensai monk abomination is OP on lamannia right now - if the track record holds true, it will golive regardless of feedback provided and people will start building them, just like the blizt in 2009.

    With half elves in the game, no one NEEDS a healer - and that race just happens to be a good one for FOTM builders.
    It'll be the next Exploiter/Monster/Blitz. We need to come up with a cool name for it, I like the "Abomination" myself. Good one, i'll give you the credit.

    They'll all be horcs though with SF pots.

  15. #75
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Another major part of the issue is that its not just people playing as 6 self sufficient toons, its 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance. The severe lack of cooperation can lead to a wipe. When I was first learning to play epics back in 2009 when they were close to the difficulty of EE today, when a wipe would occur, all of the mobs alive would be at or around half HP. A more cooperative group will kill each mob and move to the next, and each time a mob falls thats one less damage source attacking the party. 6 people soloing inside the same quest instance will attack different mobs and if they werent ready for it, get overwhelmed, not adjust their tactics, wipe, and then the "everyone elses fault but my own" attitude kicks in....if it werent for these 5 other noobs we would have completed, right?
    Chai

    Outside of some raids where you want everyone to burn down one mob at a time, what quest needs this? I just woke up so maybe I'm not thinking of it. Very little is made so that you can't burn down one mob 1vs1, if you can't do this in short order on a build thats on the build, gear, or player ability. Some of the fastest quests are when the players can all split up and go their own way. Divide and conquer is teamwork and strategy if just not one you like.

  16. #76
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    EE now is NOT what it was when MoTU first hit. What could be done in U14 is not relevant now.

    Forget buffs, they are all available to any player who puts a little effort into their toons.

    Insta-killing . . . really? Sure if you don't minds spending 150 SP a kill. 1-2 energy drains are needed for a maxed divine's necro DC.

    Meleeing? Sure you can do some damage but it really is meh.
    SoD, and a WOP bow - I dont need to do damage, but lowering con lowers fort save. After they run through the symbol a few times and lost con points, I can usually AE them down with implosion. Kiting dweeb divine FTW.

    As for melee, the destinies provide most of the damage nowdays, so yes, even a melee fvs contributes well enough to DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    WERE doing. What they WERE doing is irrelevant compared to what ACTUALLY WORKS NOW. I don't care what they could do a year ago. You think the saves aren't going to get higher in Shadowfail?

    In Turbine's infinite wisdom we now see saves so ridiculous that DC casting is pretty much off the menu.

    What's that leave you with?

    I'd be pretty ****ed if I put a lot of effort into an FvS to see where the game is now.
    Nope. ARE doing. They are capable of, and still do the things they did a year ago, to the benefit of the party. At least the good ones do. The poorly played ones are off trying to solo in the same quest instance the rest of the party is in, but this isnt limited to divines. The semantics may be slightly different, but the end result is they can still do all those things.

    DC casting is not off the menu for people who understand their debuff stacking. The only people who have been saying this are those who expect it to be a one cast solution, where they roll up on the mob, cast FOD, and it dies, with no prep work done whatsoever.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #77
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Chai

    Outside of some raids where you want everyone to burn down one mob at a time, what quest needs this? I just woke up so maybe I'm not thinking of it. Very little is made so that you can't burn down one mob 1vs1, if you can't do this in short order on a build thats on the build, gear, or player ability. Some of the fastest quests are when the players can all split up and go their own way. Divide and conquer is teamwork and strategy if just not one you like.
    I dont know how many times I have to say it in the same thread. Its NOT_ABOUT_NEED. If we use this logic, no quest NEEDS any formula to beat it therefore all arguments are invalid.

    It is a good strategy for a melee oriented group. Each mob killed takes another source of damage off the map. If youre fighting 6 mobs, after some time has passed, would you rather be still fighting 6 mobs, each at 50% HP, or would you rather have 3 mobs left each at full health. Remember, we are playing a game where a mob with 1hp left can do just as much damage as a mob at full HP. If a melee oriented group is fighting the same mob, they eliminate sources of damage where 6 people each soloing are still ALL taking damage.

    Divide and conquer is only faster when quest objectives can be achieved simultaneously and there is no specific order. Overgeared metagamers succeed this way, as well as those who know how to avoid running into mob encounters through metagaming spawn points.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-17-2013 at 12:34 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #78
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    SoD, and a WOP bow - I dont need to do damage, but lowering con lowers fort save. After they run through the symbol a few times and lost con points, I can usually AE them down with implosion. Kiting dweeb divine FTW.

    As for melee, the destinies provide most of the damage nowdays, so yes, even a melee fvs contributes well enough to DPS.
    Do you even play this game?

    90% stat damage immunity in EH/EE. WOP bow? Really? Are you kidding me?

    Mobs regain neg-levels too fast for that to be effective.

    Destinies can get a divines melee DPS to slightly above terrible, that is true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope. ARE doing. They are capable of, and still do the things they did a year ago, to the benefit of the party. At least the good ones do. The poorly played ones are off trying to solo in the same quest instance the rest of the party is in, but this isnt limited to divines. The semantics may be slightly different, but the end result is they can still do all those things.
    Screenshot or it isn't happening. I quite frankly do not believe you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    DC casting is not off the menu for people who understand their debuff stacking. The only people who have been saying this are those who expect it to be a one cast solution, where they roll up on the mob, cast FOD, and it dies, with no prep work done whatsoever.
    With all the debuffs needed to be effective it is not practical. 100+ points a kill is to the point where you're better off bringing another toon.

  19. #79
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Do you even play this game?

    90% stat damage immunity in EH/EE. WOP bow? Really? Are you kidding me?.
    Like I said, those who understand their debuff stacking. You just played your hand.

    You see, its not every_single mob that has the stat resistance. Also, since the poison "nerf" some of the poison spells have actually become a real boon. Those are your two hints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Mobs regain neg-levels too fast for that to be effective.
    Nope, they dont. It is quite effective when done correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Destinies can get a divines melee DPS to slightly above terrible, that is true.
    Just played your hand on destinies as well. Using your logic, everyone who plays hybrids (which is alot nowdays) is slightly above terrible. All it took was for people to post videos steamrolling EE on what used to be considered "slightly above terrible" and next thing you know, its an FOTM build.

    The reality is destinies are providing more character power above level 20 than any other one entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Screenshot or it isn't happening. I quite frankly do not believe you.
    Its a good thing then that your validation is not required in order for other strategies than the ones you use to succeed. This absolutist mentality of "its either great or it sucks" is limiting peoples ambition to search for more good things that happen in these patches rather than just complain about the nerfs. WHen divines got changed, people were kicking and screaming about 50% spell power reduction, but they paid absolutely no attention to a few things that happened right around the same era of time to spells that used to be next to useless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    With all the debuffs needed to be effective it is not practical. 100+ points a kill is to the point where you're better off bringing another toon.
    If youre spending that many points a kill, youre doing it wrong, if this is a discussion about efficiency. Two of the debuffs that can be used require 0 SP -two more require clickies, and one symbol can delevel alot of mobs when done correctly.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-17-2013 at 12:47 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #80
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I dont know how many times I have to say it in the same thread. Its NOT_ABOUT_NEED. If we use this logic, no quest NEEDS any formula to beat it therefore all arguments are invalid.

    It is a good strategy for a melee oriented group. Each mob killed takes another source of damage off the map. If youre fighting 6 mobs, after some time has passed, would you rather be still fighting 6 mobs, each at 50% HP, or would you rather have 3 mobs left each at full health. Remember, we are playing a game where a mob with 1hp left can do just as much damage as a mob at full HP. If a melee oriented group is fighting the same mob, they eliminate sources of damage where 6 people each soloing are still ALL taking damage.

    Divide and conquer is only faster when quest objectives can be achieved simultaneously and there is no specific order. Overgeared metagamers succeed this way, as well as those who know how to avoid running into mob encounters through metagaming spawn points.
    Six tripped or stunned mobs do no damage.

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