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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    Currently i play a rogue... I do watch my groupmates red bars and i often throw them a cacoon or scroll a heal.
    Nice, that what I like in teammates, regardless of class.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    And when i see a divine turning a blind eye and let me do the work, that divine is going bye bye. He/she can explain it's reasons after settling nicely in my ignore list.
    And do you apply that same standard to everyone else, or just to certain class icons?

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    But that's just me, one of the biggots out there.
    I guess you already answered me.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    That makes as much sense as saying every Fighter without a Tower Shield in their off-hand is doing it wrong, since they Tower Shield Proficiency is inherently given to them.
    If someone was saying divine characters should only cast healing spells, I'd agree with you. But in this case, I expect every fighter to have a tower shield on them for when the situation comes up that it's useful as the proficiency is given to them. By the same token, I expect those with inherent healing to have it on hand when the situation likewise calls for it.

    What I don't expect is for anyone to ever feel they have to have any class splashes or cross class abilities as that should be in the realm of personalization. If the game doesn't work that way, then the problem lies with the game, not the players lack of bending it into some form that does work.

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    that's not the impression I get in every pug group I join. and its been that way since BB first came out, so 2 years?
    Ok, I'll admit that I have not seen the term in common usage except as an extreme exaggeration. If it has common usage in DDO as "know exactly what we will be facing and how to beat it and in most cases can take care of all the heavy lifting and essential tasks, generally at speed" then most quests in DDO fall in that category. But "know exactly what we will be facing and how to beat it and in most cases can take care of all the heavy lifting and essential tasks, generally at speed" isn't just a snap of the fingers. It requires a lot of knowledge and experienced play. The term "autocomplete" sounds a lot more "easy" than that.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seere View Post
    New player figures cleric implies heals.

    New player gets no heals.

    New player dies.

    New player goes to new game.
    I'd much rather DDO be Dungeons and Dragons Online, and a bit smaller, rather than (maybe) a bit bigger and just another generic MMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seere View Post
    ...the 2 classes best fitted to heal, namely FvS and Cleric...
    Quite a few people who like playing healers have said that Druid is much better fitted to that role. Yet people don't see to EXPECT Druids to be their hjeal-slaves. Great for Druids, generally being accepted regardless of whether you have a healer, or a melee, or a nuker, or CC, or whatever, build. Now if we could only get the same treatment for Clr & FvS.

    Oh, and the class that gets a mass healing ability first is Artificer.

    And all sorts of healing abilities are available to every class via Epic Destinies.

    The absurd single-minded attempts to force all Clr and FvS, and only Clr & FvS, to be everyone else's little hjeal-b!(#3$ really gets tiresome.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Just the two? Cause I would put a spellsinger bard or a druid who focused on it as being close to the random average FvS
    A Druid who focuses on it is well ahead of the random average FvS, and some would argue ahead of the FvS who focuses on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Every character gets in situations where they are in need of external healing. Stuns, trips, DoTs, just to name a few. People are correct in making self-sufficiency a precondition of teamwork, because unless you can help yourself, you aren't going to be helping anyone else.
    Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    It doesn't take a cleric or a favored soul, it takes teamwork.
    Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    From the beginning of DDO, turning your barbarian into a mana sponge was NEVER about teamwork. It was pretty much the opposite of that.
    Yes!

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Frankly, if most of your levels are in a healing class and you aren't a healer, you're probably taking up a slot that would be better filled by someone else. That's not true 100% of the time, but it is about 80-90% IME.
    Your estimation is so wrong I don't know where to begin.

    If you don't have a blue bar, ya you probably are taking a spot that someone else could fill better. I personally don't care - but it's obvious that you do. So get with the freakin program. Since the classes in question (Cleric, FvS) DO have a blue bar, they are, in general, much better at EVERYTHING than that other class that doesn't have it. Ironically, most of the classes that DO have a blue bar also happen to be quite good at taking care of themselves healing-wise, at least in certain incarnations of their class.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've never understood why it is that people expect the sorceror to blast stuff, the ranger to pick off enemies up high, the wizard to CC, the fighter to tank the boss and damage him down, the rogue to pick locks.. but ask a cleric or FVS to heal, and boy, everyone freaks out.
    Why aren't you also asking the Cleric to pick off enemies high up, and blast stuff, and tank the boss and damage him down?

    Or, why aren't you just asking everyone to contribute, instead of getting hung up on what class icon they have? Do you really care if the Sorc tanks the boss and the Fighter picks off the enemies high up and the Ranger heals, and the Wizzy gets the locks and traps, and the FvS CCs? As long as they are all getting the job done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    If you want to play one of those classes and not fill that role, fine, but you better contribute solidly in other ways, because if not, you're just taking up space.
    That's true of EVERY class. Contribute solidly, don't just take up space.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Ok, I'll admit that I have not seen the term in common usage except as an extreme exaggeration. If it has common usage in DDO as "know exactly what we will be facing and how to beat it and in most cases can take care of all the heavy lifting and essential tasks, generally at speed" then most quests in DDO fall in that category. But "know exactly what we will be facing and how to beat it and in most cases can take care of all the heavy lifting and essential tasks, generally at speed" isn't just a snap of the fingers. It requires a lot of knowledge and experienced play. The term "autocomplete" sounds a lot more "easy" than that.
    im not going to lay claim to being the first, but I thought I was the only one recently using it. I originally started using it in a thread talking about dungeon scaling. I was saying how easy questing has become on elite that its like autocomplete. maybe its the wrong word to use, but it is the expectation in all types of groups from norm to elite today that if you fail a quest, than the group was really bad or some kind of finger pointing happens. its been a long long time since I have been in an actual failed heroic or epic n/h group that wasn't because of bad lag spikes. we have gotten to that point now where elite is the expected completion most of the time.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    That is correct. That's how it works in most games with classes.

    Rage about it if you want, it will not change human nature.
    I'm not sure why you are trying to project rage on me, I am merely disagreeing with you. Is it your opinion that everyone who disagrees with you is in a rage?

    You agreed that there shouldn't be an assumption of how people play, and above you say that assumption is how it works...

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    There is no class designed to do something, there are builds designed to do something.
    Thats huge difference, its sad people think class=build=role.
    QFT.

    If you really need to know the role(s) someone is built, geared, and played to fill, don't assume it from their class icon, ASK them.

  11. #411
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I'd much rather DDO be Dungeons and Dragons Online, and a bit smaller, rather than (maybe) a bit bigger and just another generic MMO.



    Quite a few people who like playing healers have said that Druid is much better fitted to that role. Yet people don't see to EXPECT Druids to be their hjeal-slaves. Great for Druids, generally being accepted regardless of whether you have a healer, or a melee, or a nuker, or CC, or whatever, build. Now if we could only get the same treatment for Clr & FvS.

    Oh, and the class that gets a mass healing ability first is Artificer.

    And all sorts of healing abilities are available to every class via Epic Destinies.

    The absurd single-minded attempts to force all Clr and FvS, and only Clr & FvS, to be everyone else's little hjeal-b!(#3$ really gets tiresome.
    ive noticed Druids taking on the healer role in groups more so than a fvs and cleric. normally, if a fvs or cleric does join a group, they either are willing to heal, dps or do both. whichever the case, I see more asking what kind of build they are so the party leader can plan his group accordingly. ive seen Druids be able to handle dps and heal in groups without complaint. in my opinion and experience, druids have a much better reputation than the cleric and fvs at the moment because most I have seen do both without question.

    there will always be players that want someone to be their hjeal-b(#3$, but ive seen a trend for quite sometime now that are learning to play without healers because its too much of a hassle to find one and too much of a hassle to find one that wont complain by being a team player and help out with a heal once in awhile like the rangers, bards, druids, paladins do.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've never understood why it is that people expect the sorceror to blast stuff, the ranger to pick off enemies up high, the wizard to CC, the fighter to tank the boss and damage him down, the rogue to pick locks.. but ask a cleric or FVS to heal, and boy, everyone freaks out.
    Well, most don't. It's just that most of these conversations refer to how things are done in pugs, where you can't expect anyone to watch your back, so why should you go out of your way to watch theirs. We humans just get along better when we don't feel an obligation to do anything for anyone we don't know without some sort of compensation agreed upon ahead of time. To easy to end up on the raw end that way.

    The better we know each other or the more ties we have in common, the less this tends to matter as trust and accountability enters into things.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'm going to take a guess here and say that 99% of divines that don't heal, don't want to be divines but are just on the road to completionist. They probably don't actually like the class or the typical role of that class.
    I wouldn't say that. I would say a goodly portion are divines because playing a class designed to have enough built in healing to keep a whole party up when well played should be good enough to keep their own butt up however it's played.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    what I do expect is teamwork. it doesn't matter if you are a ranger or a barbarian. if someone needs a heal, why not throw a heal regardless what class or build you are as long as you are capable of doing it in spell form or wand. if someone is having trouble taking down a mob, why not help that player kill the mob. teamwork makes for smooth runs, not babysitting or what icon class you are.
    (Emphasis added.)

    Exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    when a fvs or cleric say they melee or gripe because they have to throw a heal, than that's not teamwork. that's them saying they are babysitting or not being a team player.
    Wait...are they griping about throwing a heal, or griping about the fact that THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES BEING ASKED to throw a heal, instead of having ANYONE AND EVERYONE in the party willing to help out with that nice teamwork we were just talking about?

    It's not teamwork when it only applies to Clr/FvS. It's class bigotry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    rangers and paladins get devotion enhancements they can increase. they than would have to take feats to boost it more on top of the other melee focused feats that are required to fulfill pre-reqs and for general combat. than they would have to figure out a way to fill a slot to boost it more with an item without losing out on dps. to boost it more they could use clickies and ardor pots every few minutes which could be wasted if they aren't continuously healing.
    You say that like it's special to Rangers and Paladins. Here, let me try it:

    Clerics and Favored Souls get devotion enhancements they can increase. they than would have to take feats to boost it more on top of the other melee focused feats that are required to fulfill pre-reqs and for general combat. than they would have to figure out a way to fill a slot to boost it more with an item without losing out on dps. to boost it more they could use clickies and ardor pots every few minutes which could be wasted if they aren't continuously healing.

    Boy, that was easy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    rangers and paladins have so much less sp than a fvs that to "catch up" they would have to take more feats, past lives, enhancements and craft a GS item and they still would be behind a lot in the sp pool.
    Well, your average Pally probably isn't using ANY of his SP on CC, instakills, AoE damage spells, etc.. So the difference in amount available for healing isn't really large at all.

    All of which is still beside the point.

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I'm not sure how you can have a semantic debate about the word "autocomplete":

    "auto: a combining form representing automatic".

    So a quest that is "autocomplete" would literally mean that it completes itself. However since that doesn't happen it would at the very most mean that the quest PRACTICALLY completes itself. There are multi-TRs that can zerg through quests with no problem and complete them in a minute or two. I would include that in "autocomplete". However the vast majority of DDO players are not able to do that.
    I'm sorry, would no fail work better for you. Though it would actually only mean practically no fail as the servers could go down at any time or some such.

    What I mean is that not completing is almost inconceivable. It might take resources, it might even take re-entries. But we will complete.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I'm guessing that you live in a world where no doctors, lawyers, engineers or other professions exist then.

    Strange, my experience is quite different.
    That is strange, since that's not what I said.

    Having a good grounding the the basics of a broad range of things does not prevent someone from also having a specialty.

    Do you think doctors shouldn't be able to change a flat tire or cook their own dinner, or lawyers shouldn't be able to do CPR or other basic first aid?

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    But in this case, I expect every fighter to have a tower shield on them for when the situation comes up that it's useful as the proficiency is given to them.
    Really? Wow. I wonder if that other person in the thread who was squelching divines for not healing enough to their taste also squelches Fighters for not carrying tower shields.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    By the same token, I expect those with inherent healing to have it on hand when the situation likewise calls for it.
    Please explain to me, in detail and using small words, exactly what "inherent healing" is.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Frankly, if most of your levels are in a healing class and you aren't a healer, you're probably taking up a slot that would be better filled by someone else.
    "a healing class"? What the heck is "a healing class"?

    And if you're referring to Clr & FvS, which have been a topic of this conversation, I think you're way off base if you think that's a slot better filled by someone else. But whatever. If you prefer not to run with Clr/FvS, that's your preference.

  19. #419
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    (Emphasis added.)

    Exactly!



    Wait...are they griping about throwing a heal, or griping about the fact that THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES BEING ASKED to throw a heal, instead of having ANYONE AND EVERYONE in the party willing to help out with that nice teamwork we were just talking about?

    It's not teamwork when it only applies to Clr/FvS. It's class bigotry.



    You say that like it's special to Rangers and Paladins. Here, let me try it:

    Clerics and Favored Souls get devotion enhancements they can increase. they than would have to take feats to boost it more on top of the other melee focused feats that are required to fulfill pre-reqs and for general combat. than they would have to figure out a way to fill a slot to boost it more with an item without losing out on dps. to boost it more they could use clickies and ardor pots every few minutes which could be wasted if they aren't continuously healing.

    Boy, that was easy!



    Well, your average Pally probably isn't using ANY of his SP on CC, instakills, AoE damage spells, etc.. So the difference in amount available for healing isn't really large at all.

    All of which is still beside the point.
    if the cleric or fvs are the only ones in the group healing, than its either agreed upon that is the role they wanted to play or the group doesn't understand how to be self sufficient and should have communicated before starting the quest to make sure everyone is on the same page. there will be some groups that wont even try to be self sufficient or a ranger feels his sp is too precious and needs it for himself only. I think theres a lot more players out there that I have come across that are helping out with what they can when there is no actual healer role filled. some of those zerg BYOH groups usually are take care of yourself and get no help from others, but that's the exception and everyone should know this anyways before starting. I see a lot more players today drinking pots and throwing a cure to others. that's what should be happening in groups weather there is a healer or not.

    yeah, I feel the class bigotry. I play a ranger so I know all about it. I prefer the word classist though.

    you do realize you are making yourself out to look foolish by saying that a fvs is the same as a ranger and paladins in healing, but keep going because I like a good laugh.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Please explain to me, in detail and using small words, exactly what "inherent healing" is.
    A class based healing spell or ability or a class with umd as a class skill. It's rather hard to heal others with potions (unless you are an arty). Expecting everyone to have UMD, some just have to work harder to get it, or to multi-class in order to be viable just shows a falure in game design. I'm not saying this isn't how DDO is, but I've also never been one to say it was a particularly well designed game either.

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