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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You should read my posts again then, because you will clearly see I am the one who is saying newbies WILL NOT usually join a guild right off the bat. In fact I also said they WILL NOT even know about guild buffs - which refutes any argument that the newbies would all just up and leave if guild resists were even removed, because that argument hinges on assuming that newbies will have access to this stuff on day one (you know that assumption youre defying).

    As for your statement that the environment isn't too easy - you've got to be kidding me. 30 point resists trivializes the lower level game.
    I sincerely don't understand you. First you state that you don't think that new players will join a guild, then you say the low level game is trivialized by 30pt resists. Which come from a guild ship.

    I do remember what its like to be new gear wise and buff wise because ive started over from scratch on 3 different servers now in different eras. I also have been playing PD for 5 years in DDO, where we do not allow ship buffs, as well as raid in a guild on another server, so I have a very good comparison regarding how people learn with and without access to many of the things that make the game trivial.

    So as far as you saying I don't remember what its like to be new - not only do I remember, but I also get to observe brand new people join us, as well as the TR/raid scene folks joining up for a change in pace, and get killed a few times in low level stuff, due to not being used to being over geared/over buffed. All aspects of the game they were able to take for granted are now something they have to be wary of. Running through the content over buffed is no longer an option, they must use strategy.
    And I don't understand this last part. Above you said that the content is too easy but then here you say TRs get killed in low levels.

  2. #242
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    It is apparent that most of the existing players don't comprehend or remember the steep learning curve that this game can be..
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    No, it's that we don't care.
    But you're one of the "good" players?

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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Because even though this thread has derailed alot, the real problem is, I think, the mixing of good/bad old/new players in the same environnement.
    The real question in the OP is how to distinguish a "bad" player, is it fair to say if someone with "wings" should be experienced and so if they do something noobish they are really a bad player.

    We all had to learn at some point but there are new players that are good and there are old players that are bad because the gaming industry has not been created in 2013. Experience doesn't only come from playing this one game. Sure the knowledge of that one game does, but everything else when it comes to you playing your char doesn't.

    This is why... and I will repeat myself again even if it's in vain, people should be able to filter themselves by being able to know where they belong in term of difficulty. In the MMOs world, there are people who plays like if it was their job because of the addictive/competitive (this is made up but still real once so many people believe it) nature of these games. I've been there before when it comes to being addicted. To them, it's like if you'd be mixing pro hockey (chose your sport) players with juniors or worse.
    I agree that it does not help the game for impatient xp/min players to be grouping with new players. Luckily xp/min players already isolate themselves a lot in Guild / channel runs. What we need in the LFM system is an easy way for the xp/min crowd to indicate their style of questing that is also easy for a new player to understand so they can avoid it.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    Yes – my first response was to an “Elite LFM” thought I didn't know it at the time because I had not yet figured out the grouping interface to know the quest level. Heck I thought I was doing good to figure out how to even join a group and was more concerned I was right about how it worked so I didn't make a fool of my self by not being able to even enter.

    Would I have ask to join knowing it was Eliete at the time? Yes. Consider that I had run most of the content solo on Elite up to level 7 with little difficulty, no guild buffs, and basic/**** gear from chests (didn't even know ship buffs existed at the time and had not used the AH). Assuming I even understood the “ -10% xp to the group” at the time why would I think I would cause it? I had no reference to think I would die in the quest and had no clue about scaling yet. As a new player – my view was a group should be easier than solo so I should be fine.
    Your logic is good, completely understandable why you would think that joining the group would be fine.

    If you are an experienced player and don't like helping new players – that is fine, everyone should play in a way that works for them – but don't expect the new players to know that without telling them. I will not respond to a message that states “experience players only” or anything similar – I don't want to be where I'm not wanted. On the other hand, if you like helping people, and post “all Welcome” I will likely respond at first chance.
    I think this is a huge problem - the system is very complicated between quest level, scaling, difficulty level, Bravery Bonus, TRs, etc. And most of these things are not explained in any way at the low levels. New players can't be faulted for thinking that if they can join a LFM that doesn't seem to exclude them then why shouldn't they? In other MMOs you join the LFG queue and off you go, there isn't any of this difficulty level or Bravery Bonus to worry about.

  5. #245
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I sincerely don't understand you. First you state that you don't think that new players will join a guild, then you say the low level game is trivialized by 30pt resists. Which come from a guild ship.
    Its not an abolute statement. Youre trying to pit the two against eachother where its either all one way or its all the other way. The players who do end up in a guild early and use 30 point resist buffs are not subject to the learning largest part of the learning curve. And also, no one needs to join a guild to have those buffs, they merely need to join groups where someone invites them to the ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    And I don't understand this last part. Above you said that the content is too easy but then here you say TRs get killed in low levels.
    Its not uncommon that people who join PD from the TR/raid scene die a few times at lower levels when they do not have their boat buffs. This shows that 30 point resists do trivialize the lower level game. People who have gotten used to being able to ignore the two most dangerous aspects of low level gaming (spell damage and traps) now have to pay far closer attention to them.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-19-2013 at 09:01 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I think you overestimate the degree of vetness it takes to complete quests on elite if you are willing to settle for something less than high speed and perfection. Even a noob like me can complete most heroic quests on elite, under level, after having run them a dozen or so times on my various terrible builds. Which is the real learning curve of the game, knowing every quest, every trap and every mob on a first name basis.
    I am a casual player and my group does all quests on Elite. However the post I was responding to said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    What is easy and auto complete for a vet is generally also easy and auto-complete for every new player in their group though. At least until they run into one who expects them to function at the same level as the rest of the group.
    While I do the quests on Elite they are hardly "autocomplete". Of course there are a few easy quests that are. The average quest might not be "challenging" but we still have to be cautious of Elite traps, casters, etc. so those are not "autocomplete". In that type of quest the new player will still often die which is not what I would call "autocomplete for him either.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The real question in the OP is how to distinguish a "bad" player, is it fair to say if someone with "wings" should be experienced and so if they do something noobish they are really a bad player.
    I know but after so many pages the discussion has to evolve... And I think the source of the problem is what I stated. When you see something wrong, it's always better to find and treat the source instead of all the problems that this one source brings individually.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I agree that it does not help the game for impatient xp/min players to be grouping with new players. Luckily xp/min players already isolate themselves a lot in Guild / channel runs. What we need in the LFM system is an easy way for the xp/min crowd to indicate their style of questing that is also easy for a new player to understand so they can avoid it.
    There is a way already which is to write down the kind of players/playstyle in the description. I've been taking long breaks on and off of this game since 2007 and for this reason, I do not bother joining a guild anymore because i'll end up kicked for inactivity at one point or another. That results in me pugging 90% of the time unless some buddies are at the same level range. It's tough though to find people leveling as fast/slow as you for a whole life sometimes. I am sure I am not the only one in this position... just by looking at the LFMs.

    I don't see any fair way, in DDO, to set a such a system that would take into account your skill level and then wouldn't let you join a specific difficulty since there are old/pro 1st lifer on new characters and new/bad first lifer as well. Same with TRs, as the OP mentioned. That is why I would personally wish players would stay where they belong, wherever that is.

    Edit: This is not related to this one quote but it seems that everyone forgot THE ELITE OGRES! They can be a real threat to just anyone without range, TRs or not. And... Ship buff won't do much about that.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-19-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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  8. #248
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This shows that 30 point resists do trivialize the lower level game.
    Does anyone think differently?

    I just don't care. It doesn't matter at all.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not an abolute statement. Youre trying to pit the two against eachother where its either all one way or its all the other way. The players who do end up in a guild early and use 30 point resist buffs are not subject to the learning largest part of the learning curve. And also, no one needs to join a guild to have those buffs, they merely need to join groups where someone invites them to the ship.



    Its not uncommon that people who join PD from the TR/raid scene die a few times at lower levels when they do not have their boat buffs. This shows that 30 point resists do trivialize the lower level game. People who have gotten used to being able to ignore the two most dangerous aspects of low level gaming (spell damage and traps) now have to pay far closer attention to them.
    You're trying to argue from two different positions and it doesn't make any sense. What it comes down to is:

    - You say the base game is too easy
    - You say that 30 pt resists are responsible for trivializing the game

    30pt resists can't trivialize content that is already trivial. Choose one.

    As for your argument that the majority of new players somehow have access to ship buffs because they either join a guild or are invited to guild ships, I disagree. And since neither of us can PROVE which is right, both of our positions are merely educated guesses from two people who have been playing the game for a long time.

  10. #250
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    You're trying to argue from two different positions and it doesn't make any sense. What it comes down to is:

    - You say the base game is too easy
    - You say that 30 pt resists are responsible for trivializing the game

    30pt resists can't trivialize content that is already trivial. Choose one.
    Please quote where i stated the content is already trivial. I never stated this, which means Im only arguing from one position, that 30 point resists trivialize the learning curve.

    The two line items you posted also support eachother and are not contradicting at all whatsoever. The game IS too easy, in part because of things that trivialize it, such as 30 point resists. Choose one? Nope, its a cause/effect relationship where both come into play - 30 point resists are part of the problem, and the symptom of that issue is that the game is too easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    As for your argument that the majority of new players somehow have access to ship buffs because they either join a guild or are invited to guild ships, I disagree. And since neither of us can PROVE which is right, both of our positions are merely educated guesses from two people who have been playing the game for a long time.
    What we can discern from observation is that the OP (and many others throughout the years) is expecting players to just know what to do, but they are not willing to support an environment that is conducive to players learning how to play at the level they expect them to, which is a direct contradiction in logic.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-19-2013 at 09:24 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Please quote where i stated the content is already trivial. I never stated this, which means Im only arguing from one position, that 30 point resists trivialize the learning curve.

    What we can discern from observation is that the OP (and many others throughout the years) is expecting players to just know what to do, but they are not willing to support an environment that is conducive to players learning how to play at the level they expect them to, which is a direct contradiction in logic.
    What we are expecting from them is to LEARN it by themselves THEN go play with the big boys. If YOU want to teach new players, go ahead and do it. We don't have to do that all the time. And we shouldn't NEED to do it in order to not have people coming in an Elite quests only to keep dying.

    At least if not "we", that is my point of view. Not everyone is here only to try and refute till one gets bored to death and quit the discussion.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-19-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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  12. #252
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Does anyone think differently?

    I just don't care. It doesn't matter at all.
    It does matter, because if it didnt you wouldnt be posting about some player who couldnt play to your expectations. That player is a product of the environment they learned to play in, which is not conducive to teaching them to play at the level you expect them to. If you didnt care, this thread would have never happened.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #253
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    What we are expecting from them is to LEARN it by themselves THEN go play with the big boys. If YOU want to teach new players, go ahead and do it. We don't have to do that all the time. And we shouldn't NEED to do it in order to not have people coming in an Elite quests only to keep dying.
    ...and in order to LEARN it BY THEMSELVES they would need to do so in an environment conducive to making them learn it, which does not include 30 point resists at low levels, which trivialize the 2 most dangerous aspects of that part of the game. Trivializing the environment they must learn in does not prepare them for being able to "play with the big boys". Supporting this trivialized environment and then turning around and expecting them to have learned enough to "play with the big boys" is a direct contradiction in logic - akin to taking a Junior Varsity football player and throwing them into an offensive line in the NFL, and then expecting them not to get crushed on the first play.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Please quote where i stated the content is already trivial. I never stated this, which means Im only arguing from one position, that 30 point resists trivialize the learning curve.
    This is where I got that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Right but if the environment was as such that the player either had to learn or they would not succeed, this issue would not exist. The environment was more and more like that the further and further you go back. The irony here is the dumbing down of the game where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge is supported by the same folks who complain about people not knowing how to play when they hit their LFMs - which is a direct contradiction in logic.
    Now perhaps you meant "the dumbing down of the game [with ship buffs] where its now /autocompletion for anyone who does not create their own challenge" but that is not how it read. However I can see where that might be what you meant so I will concede that point.

    However I still disagree with you regarding new players and ship buffs and there is no way to prove that point.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ...and in order to LEARN it BY THEMSELVES they would need to do so in an environment conducive to making them learn it, which does not include 30 point resists at low levels, which trivialize the 2 most dangerous aspects of that part of the game. Trivializing the environment they must learn in does not prepare them for being able to "play with the big boys". Supporting this trivialized environment and then turning around and expecting them to have learned enough to "play with the big boys" is a direct contradiction in logic - akin to taking a Junior Varsity football player and throwing them into an offensive line in the NFL, and then expecting them not to get crushed on the first play.
    I'm done with this, it's futile. I understood what you said long ago, I just don't agree so you can stop trying to shove your argument directly in my mouth, I just won't swallow it, ever. Not like if Resist/Protection from elements weren't spells anyway, right?

    You're just taking ONE aspect and arguing about it, leaving everything that is relevant out of it. It's just not gonna work with anyone that graduated "debating with logic" 101.
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    There is a way already which is to write down the kind of players/playstyle in the description.
    This is why I said "easy for a new player to understand". The current method of abbreviations and acronyms is not new player friendly. If many of these "common" terms were added to the LFM system so that a person putting up a LFM could choose the terms they want and then a new player could mouse-over those terms to see an explanation, I think that would help new players stay out of groups that are not a fit. I think the LFM system should also have some kind of rating the creator can use to indicate the level of play expected in the group. That rating could also have a mouseover tooltip to explain.

  17. #257
    Community Member Chaimberland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibe View Post
    I say just be friendly. I have been playing on and off for a year and a half with a few toons. One of them is going to TR soon for the first time. I still have questions and do not always do things right. Just because I have wings does not mean I have memorized the quest or can heal myself. I like playing with a live cleric or FS who can heal the group. Self healing can be hard on some of the quests. Don't worry I won't join your LFM but since there is no restriction on who can click on them you can expect someone to miss understand BYOH and join the group. Hell when I first saw BYOH I had no idea what the hell it meant. New players may not either. If you really do not want someone to join the LFM maybe spell it out. When you mention that the player should also know the quest in the LFM it also could imply that you want to go fast or zerg. That means that people are trying to get XP fast and not enjoy the game. I typically avoid those as well. I prefer to take my time with a group who likes to have fun and not take it too seriously.
    Amen brother!

  18. #258
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It does matter, because if it didnt you wouldnt be posting about some player who couldnt play to your expectations. That player is a product of the environment they learned to play in, which is not conducive to teaching them to play at the level you expect them to. If you didnt care, this thread would have never happened.
    Oh that's a load of malarky. Players who are that stupid die too often to have ship buffs anyway.

    You have no point.

    Can you get back to your anti-Pay2Win tirades? i like agreeing with you better.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    This is why I said "easy for a new player to understand". The current method of abbreviations and acronyms is not new player friendly. If many of these "common" terms were added to the LFM system so that a person putting up a LFM could choose the terms they want and then a new player could mouse-over those terms to see an explanation, I think that would help new players stay out of groups that are not a fit. I think the LFM system should also have some kind of rating the creator can use to indicate the level of play expected in the group. That rating could also have a mouseover tooltip to explain.
    Weee... never thought about that. Nice idea really. Now I'm just not sure if people would still respect what's written because I see alot of people who knows what BYOH is and certainly even more so Zerg/Fast Paced/Vets only, but still join those even though they know they won't keep up because it's not their first time facing this situation.

    But seriously, that would be a step foward without restraining anyone.
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  20. #260
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Weee... never thought about that. Nice idea really. Now I'm just not sure if people would still respect what's written because I see alot of people who knows what BYOH is and certainly even more so Zerg/Fast Paced/Vets only, but still join those even though they know they won't keep up because it's not their first time facing this situation.

    But seriously, that would be a step foward without restraining anyone.
    "Elitist Jerks preferred" is the best one I've seen.

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