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  1. #181
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I do not see that in this thread. The OP was looking for answers as to when to say enough is enough. Even if we do lump this into an” elitist thread” there are far more threads that will be bashing BB or the terrible zergers.
    Get rid of scaling, get rid of BB, get rid of ship buffs, get rid of this and that. If it is that bad for people, do not use these “op” things. But no. We will be back here again in a week debating getting rid of this and that because some innocent pugger cannot find enjoyment unless everyone is as miserable as they are.
    Maybe... but the second longest thread on these forums was "Noob's Stupid Remark of the Week" or something similar.....

    (and the longest is about a Cupcake?! )
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    while they try to round up mobs to wail or kite them through acid fog, my barb is killing the other ones with just a few hits.
    So... you are actually going and basing your idea that your Barbarian is doing something great, against a caster who is kiting things through Acid Fog?!? A pitifully low damage persistent AoE? A huge number of extremely clueless things have been brought up, and I was staying out of this discussion since I do not particularly care, but this just takes it to an entirely insane level of stupidity.....

    The argument keeps getting made that 'self sufficient' characters have gimped themselves in order to get to this level of self sufficiency. That is entirely false as well. It would be more accurate to say that some characters gimp themselves in order to build in self sufficiency, which is no different than any other way that people gimp their own builds. This is going to happen any time you allow people to make choices that have meaningful consequences.

    Forcing 'class roles' onto people is something that was pushed when DDO first launched. And it didn't exactly make much of a splash when it launched. Forcing parties just does not work in modern MMOs.

  3. #183
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    So... you are actually going and basing your idea that your Barbarian is doing something great, against a caster who is kiting things through Acid Fog?!? A pitifully low damage persistent AoE? A huge number of extremely clueless things have been brought up, and I was staying out of this discussion since I do not particularly care, but this just takes it to an entirely insane level of stupidity.....

    The argument keeps getting made that 'self sufficient' characters have gimped themselves in order to get to this level of self sufficiency. That is entirely false as well. It would be more accurate to say that some characters gimp themselves in order to build in self sufficiency, which is no different than any other way that people gimp their own builds. This is going to happen any time you allow people to make choices that have meaningful consequences.

    Forcing 'class roles' onto people is something that was pushed when DDO first launched. And it didn't exactly make much of a splash when it launched. Forcing parties just does not work in modern MMOs.
    I made no argument that self sufficient' characters have gimped themselves in order to get to this level of self sufficiency. What I stated is that the well built ones are worth it while there are some less well built ones that are not. Its a huge gray area where success is measured by how much is given up for that self sufficiency.

    I was also one of the people years ago who were preaching self healing / more defense minded toons when spreadsheet gamers were perpetuating the myth that min max str/con fighters were better. In the era where TOD elite was very difficult content, it never ceased to amaze me how often in part 1 where the last 4 or 5 people left alive who would save the raid from wiping were evasion paladin builds, rangers, or higher save builds who could scroll heal.

    The issue I see is when people try and tell us that everything else is obsolete if its not self sufficient. Then they describe this mythical universe where divines no longer heal people. While I have seen a few INDIVIDUAL cases of this, I dont see it as a whole. Those individuals who join groups who have the FvS/Clr icons up in the LFM (obviously looking for a healer) and then preach their mantra of "im not going to hjeal you" AFTER they take up the group slot end up not finding their way into too many more groups on the servers I play on, and everyone in the community knows who they are. They are just as bad as the "hjeal meh" barbarians who absolutely rely on everyone else to keep them propped up.

    Ive never understood the mentality behind playing a divine and never healing others. Should have just played a sorc. Considerably more DPS, and no obligation to heal anyone other than themselves when they see fit. Its a win win situation for all involved.

    Nobody is FORCING a class role on anyone in this game. The player chose their class in the character creation screen. Even then, no one is demanding that divines stand around and wait for folks to take damage. Divines as more of a prevention/mitigation device rather than a recovery device. Instakilling, commanding, BB kiting, turning undead, holding, etc....are all mitigation that prevents/minimizes damage to the party. If a divine cant do that well enough to where the party still takes damage IN BATTLE, they should throw a heal - and at that point its not too much to ask of them. If the battle is done and people need topped off, thats where the self sufficiency comes in. If the divine doesnt mitigate well, AND doesnt heal well, what are they doing? I dont believe this outline forces a role on anyone. They chose a class than can both heal and kill well. Refusing to do one or the other is playing half the class. Shoulda rolled a sorc.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #184
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    A surefire way to get booted from my groups is thus:

    1) Someone joins and asks what quest we are running. What, you weren't able to READ the description of the LFM you CLICKED on? That really makes me doubt your intelligence/ability to follow directions.

    2) People who join a group and immediately demand "share." Yeah, hello to you too.

    3) Whenever someone zergs ahead of the rest of the group in a quest, gets high alert, and then dies. Don't get me wrong-- I like to zerg quests, I generally finish a TR in around a week with no box. But, when we zerg elite quests I like to stick together so that mobs do not overwhelm. I also like to get as many bonuses as I can the first run, so bypassing mobs isn't conducive to that.

    Basically, it all comes down to attitude and willingness to follow directions moreso than gear or build.
    Pretty good list there other than 1...have to have a little bit of understanding in that as a lot of dillholes open for pugs and dont update their quest that they are on.

    For me personally, I draw the line if I am not enjoying running with the group I'm with. If it is not any fun I do something else.

  5. #185
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The issue I see is when people try and tell us that everything else is obsolete if its not self sufficient.
    They are obsolete.

    But you are right about that other point, the "hjeah meh" builds were always terrible. They were fine until something went 'wrong' and then they were corpses.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its even more hilarious when the same person posing a thread about how a TR should just know how to play also does not support any learning curve whatsoever in the low level. How is that TR going to learn to play exactly? Here we see an EXPECTATION of that person knowing how to play, along with the direct contradiction of not wanting to support having an environment where learning quality play is conducive. As long as there are mechanics in the game that can be used to trivialize large chunks of the learning curve, we better get used to and stay used to players of the caliber the OP is describing showing up to LFMs, without a clue.
    The problem with this argument is that however the Barb in the OP "learned" to play has no bearing on the behavior mentioned. If he learned to play with a static group and always had a healer he should be able to make the connection that he's going to need a healer with him so not go running off alone.

    Even if he is a brand new player that stoned his first life (stones are not always available so that would be a big coincidence that they happened to be available during the short period from lvl 1-8), he did still play from 1-8 and then again from 1 to somewhere around 10. If he had ship buffs for all or most of that time, he should still have them. If he somehow stopped having them he should recognize that he no longer has buffs. Yes buffs make things easier - but that is the point of buffs. Hopefully players recognize why they are getting them... O.o That would be sorta like not realizing the point of your armor.

  7. #187
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The problem with this argument is that however the Barb in the OP "learned" to play has no bearing on the behavior mentioned. If he learned to play with a static group and always had a healer he should be able to make the connection that he's going to need a healer with him so not go running off alone.
    Or they learned that the game up til then is trivial due to resists soaking up most of the damage as well as other factors. Ability to play does have a bearing on the behavior. If he played in an environment that had a learning curve enough to make him realize that he needed those things in the first place, it would not have been an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Even if he is a brand new player that stoned his first life (stones are not always available so that would be a big coincidence that they happened to be available during the short period from lvl 1-8), he did still play from 1-8 and then again from 1 to somewhere around 10. If he had ship buffs for all or most of that time, he should still have them. If he somehow stopped having them he should recognize that he no longer has buffs. Yes buffs make things easier - but that is the point of buffs. Hopefully players recognize why they are getting them... O.o That would be sorta like not realizing the point of your armor.
    This is what I was saying before, using ship buffs as an example. The beginning levels in the game are trivialized by stuff like that. With no high value resists soaking up most of the damage that they were taking, they would have realized that they are taking too much damage and found a different mitigation source, which is cure pots. The quest the OP invited him into was right on that cusp where 30 point resists no longer trivialize content.

    Bottom line: Expecting people to know how to play but not supporting the game having an environment that contains a learning curve condusive to doing so, is a direct contradiction in logic.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #188
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Maybe... but the second longest thread on these forums was "Noob's Stupid Remark of the Week" or something similar.....

    (and the longest is about a Cupcake?! )
    These threads are simply poking fun. Porkton has a few nice ones on Thelanis.

    I would say that it would be different if I came here and demanded that Turbine change things simply because I am jealous or simply do not like another play style.

    What would you say to putting a timer on all quests? If you cannot complete Redfang in under 6 minutes, you automatically fail. Complete RWTD in under 15 minutes, or auto failure? Probably does not sound fun to some of the slower fokes. Really no need for these changes, I just have a hankering to hate slow people. See any correlation?

    I would never be for these changes, but this is what it seems like when you have people coming here complaining that they hate another person’s play style. When I see people coming here complaining about something like in some threads I just shake my head and wonder about people.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Or they learned that the game up til then is trivial due to resists soaking up most of the damage as well as other factors. Ability to play does have a bearing on the behavior. If he played in an environment that had a learning curve enough to make him realize that he needed those things in the first place, it would not have been an issue.



    This is what I was saying before, using ship buffs as an example. The beginning levels in the game are trivialized by stuff like that. With no high value resists soaking up most of the damage that they were taking, they would have realized that they are taking too much damage and found a different mitigation source, which is cure pots. The quest the OP invited him into was right on that cusp where 30 point resists no longer trivialize content.

    Bottom line: Expecting people to know how to play but not supporting the game having an environment that contains a learning curve condusive to doing so, is a direct contradiction in logic.
    You make a lot of assumptions: you are assuming that his wings might not have been "earned"; you are assuming that he has ship buffs and that those buffs include 30pt resists (my ship doesn't have them); you are assuming that this was the first quest he ran where the damage was no longer mitigated by the resists...

    I don't assume:

    -that any significant number of TRs are brand new players on their first character that have used a Stone
    -that any significant number of new players automatically get into a guild
    -if they do that guild has a high level ship
    -if it does that the new player doesn't realize what the ship buffs do for him vs. the content AND that the not-new players in the guild with the high level ship don't explain it to him (!)
    -that the guild members in this guild with a high level ship will not help the new player to be a good group player

    Is it possible that there are new players that meet all of the above assumptions and also have guildies that do not help them to understand the repercussions of them? I'm sure there are but I can't imagine that they occur in any significant numbers.

  10. #190
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Or they learned that the game up til then is trivial due to resists soaking up most of the damage as well as other factors. Ability to play does have a bearing on the behavior. If he played in an environment that had a learning curve enough to make him realize that he needed those things in the first place, it would not have been an issue.



    This is what I was saying before, using ship buffs as an example. The beginning levels in the game are trivialized by stuff like that. With no high value resists soaking up most of the damage that they were taking, they would have realized that they are taking too much damage and found a different mitigation source, which is cure pots. The quest the OP invited him into was right on that cusp where 30 point resists no longer trivialize content.

    Bottom line: Expecting people to know how to play but not supporting the game having an environment that contains a learning curve condusive to doing so, is a direct contradiction in logic.
    The learning curve at the point you reference before ship buffs existed did indeed require controlled play and/or mild self sufficiency. People learned more often to avoid damage by developing movement/twitch skills. But even at that time the majority of players were unwilling to quaff potions or anything else. The majority of players were of the 'everyone does this for me and I keep autoattacking' crowd.

    Having ship buffs shouldn't have stopped that barb from having some pots or an alternative way to get hp's back in a byoh run.
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I made no argument that self sufficient' characters have gimped themselves in order to get to this level of self sufficiency. What I stated is that the well built ones are worth it while there are some less well built ones that are not. Its a huge gray area where success is measured by how much is given up for that self sufficiency.

    I was also one of the people years ago who were preaching self healing / more defense minded toons when spreadsheet gamers were perpetuating the myth that min max str/con fighters were better. In the era where TOD elite was very difficult content, it never ceased to amaze me how often in part 1 where the last 4 or 5 people left alive who would save the raid from wiping were evasion paladin builds, rangers, or higher save builds who could scroll heal.

    The issue I see is when people try and tell us that everything else is obsolete if its not self sufficient. Then they describe this mythical universe where divines no longer heal people. While I have seen a few INDIVIDUAL cases of this, I dont see it as a whole. Those individuals who join groups who have the FvS/Clr icons up in the LFM (obviously looking for a healer) and then preach their mantra of "im not going to hjeal you" AFTER they take up the group slot end up not finding their way into too many more groups on the servers I play on, and everyone in the community knows who they are. They are just as bad as the "hjeal meh" barbarians who absolutely rely on everyone else to keep them propped up.

    Ive never understood the mentality behind playing a divine and never healing others. Should have just played a sorc. Considerably more DPS, and no obligation to heal anyone other than themselves when they see fit. Its a win win situation for all involved.

    Nobody is FORCING a class role on anyone in this game. The player chose their class in the character creation screen. Even then, no one is demanding that divines stand around and wait for folks to take damage. Divines as more of a prevention/mitigation device rather than a recovery device. Instakilling, commanding, BB kiting, turning undead, holding, etc....are all mitigation that prevents/minimizes damage to the party. If a divine cant do that well enough to where the party still takes damage IN BATTLE, they should throw a heal - and at that point its not too much to ask of them. If the battle is done and people need topped off, thats where the self sufficiency comes in. If the divine doesnt mitigate well, AND doesnt heal well, what are they doing? I dont believe this outline forces a role on anyone. They chose a class than can both heal and kill well. Refusing to do one or the other is playing half the class. Shoulda rolled a sorc.
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  12. #192
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    I have been ingame since ddo launch ...... BUT only recently did my first couple CITW runs.

    I told everyone in party and to forgive me for not having a clue what was about to happen ....

    Party and leader were awesome ...

    Now I have since been with the same group and have had first timers hop in and it was a gong show babysitting them.

    I think new doesnrt matter as long as you know what to expect !!
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ...

    Its even more hilarious when the same person posing a thread about how a TR should just know how to play also does not support any learning curve whatsoever in the low level. How is that TR going to learn to play exactly? Here we see an EXPECTATION of that person knowing how to play, along with the direct contradiction of not wanting to support having an environment where learning quality play is conducive. As long as there are mechanics in the game that can be used to trivialize large chunks of the learning curve, we better get used to and stay used to players of the caliber the OP is describing showing up to LFMs, without a clue.
    Actually, it looks more to me like a complaint about a player not recognizing they are in over their heads and not taking the game seriously enough to follow along and take the opportunity to rectify the situation. Of course it also only offers one side of the story, so we don't know if interaction with the rest of the group may have encouraged the player to play the way he/she did. From opinions given by the OP in this thread, that does not seem unlikely.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yes. Especially since if I stub my toes I don't have to yell "Hjeal meh!" and hope somebody else can fix it.
    To each their own I guess.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    A surefire way to get booted from my groups is thus:

    1) Someone joins and asks what quest we are running. What, you weren't able to READ the description of the LFM you CLICKED on? That really makes me doubt your intelligence/ability to follow directions.

    2) People who join a group and immediately demand "share." Yeah, hello to you too.

    3) Whenever someone zergs ahead of the rest of the group in a quest, gets high alert, and then dies. Don't get me wrong-- I like to zerg quests, I generally finish a TR in around a week with no box. But, when we zerg elite quests I like to stick together so that mobs do not overwhelm. I also like to get as many bonuses as I can the first run, so bypassing mobs isn't conducive to that.

    Basically, it all comes down to attitude and willingness to follow directions moreso than gear or build.
    Yet you pug?

    I really don't understand how people think they can reasonably expect to avoid any of the above while playing with random strangers.

  16. #196
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Yet you pug?

    I really don't understand how people think they can reasonably expect to avoid any of the above while playing with random strangers.
    A larger player population means you don't get the same five people joining every pug and doing those things like what happens on wayfinder. =P

  17. #197
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    A larger player population means you don't get the same five people joining every pug and doing those things like what happens on wayfinder. =P
    And that's really the issue with DDO right now . . . just not enough people playing it.

    With a larger population it's easier to find people in your level range that fit your style of play.

    With the ghost-town that is DDO post MoTU . . . it's not the case.

    So Turbine's solution . . . is to increase the level cap . . . to yet further dilute this.

    Ponderous, friggin ponderous.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    A larger player population means you don't get the same five people joining every pug and doing those things like what happens on wayfinder. =P
    Well, I don't know what things happened on Wayfinder. Otherwise, fine, but you have to expect to compromise to achieve that.

    What I see here is an expectation of a huge population all following a play style that the game, in many cases, needs to be bent quite a bit to even achieve. All the while being shinny happy people who give a rats ass what you think about them despite that huge population to hide in. That just seems unreasonable to me.

  19. #199
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    What I see here is an expectation of a huge population all following a play style that the game, in many cases, needs to be bent quite a bit to even achieve. All the while being shinny happy people who give a rats ass what you think about them despite that huge population to hide in. That just seems unreasonable to me.
    I expect people to follow the play style of those who have the star. If I join a group of flower-sniffers I don't zerg, if it's an obviously zergy LFM be able to keep up.

    Some guy on my server last night was using "Elitist Jerks Preferred" in his LFMs, I don't think you'd expect the helpless and hapless to hit that LFM needing their hand held.

  20. #200
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Well, I don't know what things happened on Wayfinder. Otherwise, fine, but you have to expect to compromise to achieve that.

    What I see here is an expectation of a huge population all following a play style that the game, in many cases, needs to be bent quite a bit to even achieve. All the while being shinny happy people who give a rats ass what you think about them despite that huge population to hide in. That just seems unreasonable to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I expect people to follow the play style of those who have the star. If I join a group of flower-sniffers I don't zerg, if it's an obviously zergy LFM be able to keep up.

    Some guy on my server last night was using "Elitist Jerks Preferred" in his LFMs, I don't think you'd expect the helpless and hapless to hit that LFM needing their hand held.
    Overall what Troll is saying here, however my previous post was something I'd call sarcastic truth. True morons who don't read, listen, ext are fairly rare overall but you tend to get them in clumps, if all that's left in a population is a group of morons, then yeah that's what you're going to get, a large population in general has enough people that can read an lfm description for it to work. That goes for flower sniffing, zerg, byoh, one handed midgets only, you name it.

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