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  1. #1
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    Default Some Thoughts to promote a discussion concerning the gap between new and old players

    My apologies to all first and foremost as this may become longwinded due to the need for much back and forth through my personal timeline of play here on DDO and the things I have seen turn off new players.

    Recent threads talking about things like ship buffs, and their advantages for old time TR junkies vs the negative impact they can have on new players and the bar set for reasonable expectations of threats as well as things like DDOs deep layers of complexity when it comes to understanding such threats and the ways to counter them and the well known dif spike for most new players when they hit the lvl 12+ range have had me alot of late pondering more so about an MMO then I frankly like, and feel the need to try to vent these thoughts before they drive me to distraction beyond all reason.

    Around the time MOTU was getting ready to go live, I had managed to bring 3 new players to DDO whom I will each give a first name to and as brief as possible abit of relevant background info for each.

    Wes: Wes is among my oldest of friends having known him since we where in 1st grade, and a dice chucker as long as I have though we often see alot differently when it comes to our ideal PnP adventure arch types. He being more the years of epic struggle where I favor more a fast fun weekly episodic style.

    He came to DDO much like alot of us old timers nhad, attracted by the D&D connection, from years of being a wow raid tanker through and through. So he was both an avid MMO player and vet PnP player of multiple editions.

    He started with a basic throw away dwarf fighter cleric build to unlock drow asap when i explained how starting build points worked, and for someone mainly interested in playing a wizard they would give some of the best starting stats until unlocking the 32 point build. He was very adept at DDO having little trouble just as I had so many years before, learning DDOs house rules so to speak and working with them. He got that character to cap, but when he found that to really be optimal for what DDO die hards view as the end game raid scene he would need to destroy this otherwise perfectly fun to play character and either redo it exactly after many lives to get max spell pen and DCs to be seen as less then gimp he saw it as a big warning sign to just walk away. to him the TR system was beyond repulsive, and so one new would recruit who had all the potential any DDO die hard could as for as a player walked away with no regrets seeing his months and money spent subbing here as a waste, as he put it why sub to this niche game when he can go back to subbing on wow and a welcoming community that his first toon ever made years ago was a valued and often in demand tank not just by his guild but by virtually all who knew him there.

    Josh: I have known josh since we where teens, he also was among my first circle of table top players so many years ago. He came to DDO with that experience but never having been an MMO or even single player rpg guy, For him DDO was a new and different way to try D&D and he to took to it like a duck to water, his own unorthodox but fun elven paladin archer that he turned ino a very fun to play AA who could self heal enough and had solid saves for a first life toon felt very confident soloing normal content well into the upper teens, it was only in the lvl 18+ range he really started to feel the lack in a first life toon. When i said the best thing I could offer in advice was to try and hit 20 and TR so he could have 32 base points and a past life feat to help add a bit more oomph he too was disgusted by the idea of throwing away his first character to just remake it with abit more oomph.

    Finally there was Chel: She was new to table top gaming only a few years under her belt of 3E though we gave her a crash course in dabbling with all kinds of variations and even some older ed stufff to try to expand her tastes for the various ways they could work.

    She also took to DDO very rapdily, but she especially exhibited many of the traits so many of us DDO old timers get frustrated by. She was so gung ho on being a heroic warrior with her barbarian she insisted on making for her first character that she frequently suffered defeat and frustration. She was very dependant on nannybots or a fellow player willing to watch her red bar, she just had 0 interest in it at first. Eventually she moved on from that first character but with great hesitation, i think alot of us know how attached we can be to first characters in an MMO and see walking away from them as some kind of failure that warrants leaving the game entirely, and after a bit she did, she didnt like not playing her first character and didnt like how dependant it was on others. Nor am I so wealthy in game as to keep several new comers well geared and potted.

    One of the biggest links between these 3 I saw was an extreme loss of interest when they felt that first character was little more then a test dummy to help them learn to play. For each though for different reasons once that first character got mothballed or hit a point where TRing was the only real way to progress them further, they walked away with no second thoughts.

    It left me wondering how many others might have left for the same kind of feeling. Of not being on truly equal footing at the point of character creation as old timers.

    And I started to think that might be one of the things we old timers just accepted but also had a deep impact on our flow of new blood.

    So I put it to all bluntly is it worth it to make a divide at character creation like starting build points. Although the differences might be minor still there is a noteable impact on new comers when they learn its only through extremely extended play that they can start with 36 stat points, and no way for a first character to start at such even through some contribution to turbine through the DDO store.

    I personally have never felt the lack, 32 point builds and first life drow have always sufficed for me, but I started before we had the option to have more and saw them as additions. For new players they are instead like a blazing sign to just stay away, that the game is already old and certainly in its twilight years, and its highly unlikely enough time in its life still exist to warrant new players trying to undergo such a lengthy persuit.

    Ive tried to think of some ways to update the system, from extrmes like just removing 28 point builds altogether and starting all evenly at the new standard of 36 points now upheld by the min max old timers and therefore became the standard new comers read about and want to be on par with in a reasonable time frame

    Or perhaps a more alt friendly approach like when you get a character to 20 you unlock the next higher tier of bild points for your next character so as to not force players to throw away characters who already feel well developed.

    Or maybe a third option like when you get a character to 20 you can choose the classic TR, the higher starting build points for the next toon made, or an inherent +2 stat increase on top of any and all others to a single stat of their choice( that would then lock out that character from TRing or perhaps simply lose that inherent bonus if TRing was chosen at a later date.

    Im not really sure if any or all would help retain more new players but I do suspect there needs to be something thought of and done as at least for me the current system has cost me every friend ive tried bringing to the game, they all reach a point where the idea of TRing feels forced upon them and makes them walk away.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    One of the biggest links between these 3 I saw was . . .
    They built bad toons and had troubles later on?

    it is an issue, very easy to gimp yourself in DDO.

    The pre-built paths simply need to be less terrible and this will happen less. This is something Turbine should act upon, and no the Iconics are not a solution.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-16-2013 at 12:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    They built bad toons and had troubles later on?

    it is an issue, very easy to gimp yourself in DDO.

    The pre-built paths simply need to be less terrible and this will happen less. This is something Turbine should act upon, and no the Iconics are not a solution.
    No nothing about their builds was bad, it was more a case of just being lacking in what is needed. One must need to understand that new players will never see a difficulty setting if its connected to ANY form of character progression be it loot,xp, or favor or build points that feels locked out to first life toons played to the best of their ability will be a turn off to new players.

    But then again since its you I know nothing you say is ever actually meant to be input your the very kind of player DDO needs to turn off not cater to

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    No nothing about their builds was bad, it was more a case of just being lacking in what is needed. One must need to understand that new players will never see a difficulty setting if its connected to ANY form of character progression be it loot,xp, or favor or build points that feels locked out to first life toons played to the best of their ability will be a turn off to new players.

    What's the difference between "bad" and "lacking what was needed?" Not being snarky, it's a serious question.

    I've been a new player, started with F2p.

    My first toon . . . TERRIBLE!!! ZOMG was she bad, lousy awful.

    Second toon . . . is over 3 years old and still level 13(?).

    Third toon . . . was awesome. As were (most of) the ones that followed.

    That first toon is now awesome many lives later.

    You're over-valuing the advantages of PLs. Strong builds are fine on 32-points. Weak build are bad ever with 36. I've seen many people being awesome on 32/34 point builds. I've also seen terrible completionists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    But then again since its you I know nothing you say is ever actually meant to be input your the very kind of player DDO needs to turn off not cater to
    You should listen to me, I'm friggin brilliant.

  5. #5
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    If you see TRing as a mechanic that synergizes with DDO's greatest strength: Trillions of build possibilities (some great, some Flavor of the month, some horrible), and retains the investment you made in getting BtC loot, it becomes more palatable. The past lives and copletionist feats are just gravy. They're nice, but it's not the point of TRing.

    As you said, you make due with just first life champions and drow, and still manage to have fun. Presenting to any newbie that they have to be a powerplayer, they have to grind, and they have to make this game a chore will turn off anyone.


    Think those three cases were not the fault of the product, but the salesman.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    A well written and thoughtful post, OP.

    Being a veteran MMO gamer, I find that in DDO, as with any other game, there is a learning curve.
    The first character (or first few sometimes!) are yes, basically throw-aways. I don't see this as being strictly part of DDO, it is, IMO, a common theme among any game like this.

    As your experience and knowledge of the game grows, so too does your character development skills.
    This is the main reason why I love DDO so much - you can build a complete failure. Or a partial one, for that matter. If everyone started off on perfectly equal footing, we would have a game like so many other MMO's, a cookie cutter everyone-is-exactly-the-same, nicely balanced bore fest. It is the very journey of learning from my mistakes that keeps me here. The "what if I did *this* this time?"

    The TR thing is, IMO, a fantastic idea. It lets Turbine get more playability out of the same content. It lets players grow their same characters that they love into a better, faster, more powerful version. You don't have to hang up that guy or put him out to pasture. You have the OPTION to rebuild and keep all your hard earned gear, or build something else entirely.

    Plus, DDO has a wonderful thing in a Lesser Resurrection, Feat Exchanges, and/or Enhancement respecs. You don't necessarily have to build perfect the first time, you can go back and tweak things, experiment, and redo.

    - An alternate viewpoint
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  7. #7
    Community Member bluejadex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Being a veteran MMO gamer, I find that in DDO, as with any other game, there is a learning curve.
    The first character (or first few sometimes!) are yes, basically throw-aways. I don't see this as being strictly part of DDO, it is, IMO, a common theme among any game like this.

    As your experience and knowledge of the game grows, so too does your character development skills.
    This is the main reason why I love DDO so much - you can build a complete failure. Or a partial one, for that matter. If everyone started off on perfectly equal footing, we would have a game like so many other MMO's, a cookie cutter everyone-is-exactly-the-same, nicely balanced bore fest. It is the very journey of learning from my mistakes that keeps me here. The "what if I did *this* this time?"

    The TR thing is, IMO, a fantastic idea. It lets Turbine get more playability out of the same content. It lets players grow their same characters that they love into a better, faster, more powerful version. You don't have to hang up that guy or put him out to pasture. You have the OPTION to rebuild and keep all your hard earned gear, or build something else entirely.

    Plus, DDO has a wonderful thing in a Lesser Resurrection, Feat Exchanges, and/or Enhancement respecs. You don't necessarily have to build perfect the first time, you can go back and tweak things, experiment, and redo.

    - An alternate viewpoint
    Pretty much agree with you here. One of the things I disliked about WoW was how cookie cutter the characters seemed to be (at least compared to DDO). You're pigeon-holed into a few choices and it gets really old/boring.

    That's one of my fears with the new enhancement system... It seems like it's going down the path (though not quite as bad?) as WoW - less options, more class builds that will be similar (in part, this is due to the requirement to spend a certain amount of points in a tree to unlock "higher" enhancements, imo).

    I'm not as new as some of the others that have posted here (I started in 2011), but the idea of TRing didn't bother me. In some ways, it was a chance to try out a different class without taking up one of my character slots... And I knew I didn't *have* to TR, but I wanted to. My first character got TR'd, but the second character I got to level 20+ is remaining high level for now...I really enjoy playing her as a cleric.

    With my first character I was able to get into a static group and that helped a lot. Right now, though, I don't have a static group, per se.

    The biggest turn offs for me (particularly when I was new) were when LFMs ended up being only for people who want to zerg or required you to "know" the quest. How is a new player (or one who simply hasn't run the quest before or hasn't run it recently) supposed to know the quest? If there's a new player who doesn't know the quest and doesn't have a static group, it can be difficult to find a group willing to take you on. There are also some players who are...difficult. If a new player makes one mistake, they get constantly harassed by some. Or, for example, I was playing my cleric at a lower level...I knew I had to conserve my sp as there were no shrines, so I wasn't healing people up to max hp all the time and one person ended up going around a corner....that person died as I couldn't get to him in time. The player who died wasn't really upset, but someone else gave me a hard time about it. Not exactly something that makes one want to stick around.

    Just my two cents...
    Cannith:
    Isaela-Fighter 16 (TR)||Aeylya-Cleric 21||Draeya-Rogue 5||Sollest-Ranger 9||Fiarra-Artificer 9||Rinwenn-Ranger 7||Moliya-Druid 3||Onaya-Druid 7||Anniela-Favored Soul 7||Caelene-Bard 7||Kitartia-BladeForged 15

  8. #8
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    We have feat exchanges, GRs and LRs.... and gear matter more than build anyway...

    I am still playing my first character... in fact, he is still my favorite. I have changed him over the years, but he is still very close to the original concept.... that evolved as the level cap was increased.

    My main is an extremely odd build that many label as gimped.... in some ways they are correct.. in others, they miss the advantages and more importantly how it fits my playstyle preference.

    This game is also not that hard.

    Experience matters more than anything else.

    There is no reason to leave thi sgame simply because you do not like your first character.
    Or IMO, to abandon your first character.

    We also have TRs.

    So I say, play your first... change... adapt your first..... if you cannot stand him build an alt.

    Build alts anyway to explore the game and understand what you really want to play here...

    TR at 20 if you decide that you woul drather play something else... and still keep your first toon and all the love that went into it. (and gear you got along the way)




    Oh.. and I won't be TRing my main either....





    And btw: I am on Thelanis and would welcome any new player who wants to run something with me. All of my alts are in the Knights of the Shadows guild.... and 99.9% chance that any toon you see in that guild is mine.... but if by chance you encounter one of my part-time guildies, they are new guy friendly too....

    I do have toons on every server though... I could join someone on aother server as well. (although right now, I am really wanting to build up guild renown on Thelanis while the decay is turned off.)
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 07-18-2013 at 10:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    The gap between vets and newbs has probably never been smaller in the history of DDO due to ED and gear changes - you can get very decent equipment with just a little effort. Of course, if you put absolutely no effort in, you are going to be behind.

    I would explain to a new player how to acquire some decent mid-tier gear, and just let them quest to 25 on their first life and see how they like the game. Fixating on build points and TR is probably not the best approach.
    Last edited by GeneralDiomedes; 07-18-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    I would explain to a new player how to acquire some decent mid-tier gear, and just let them quest to 25 on their first life and see how they like the game. Fixating on build points and TR is probably not the best approach.
    What class do you feel a first toon should be? it's an interesting question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    What class do you feel a first toon should be? it's an interesting question.
    Can a first toon be a warlock?
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    They built bad toons and had troubles later on?

    it is an issue, very easy to gimp yourself in DDO.

    The pre-built paths simply need to be less terrible and this will happen less. This is something Turbine should act upon, and no the Iconics are not a solution.
    Turbine almost lost me as a player because of the paths.

    I made a pre-built path paladin and was repeatedly laughed at in chat for being a "dumb noob" when I revealed this. TURBINE ABSOLUTELY HAS TO fix the paths to help retain new people. It's normally good practice to start a new MMO and look for a pre-built character that suits your play style so you can learn the specifics of that game. The paths are not just a little weak, they're so badly crippled that they're detrimental to play. As a result, the player base is not kind to people who play a path.

    I fell into a very nice guild with people who helped me slog through my first life, I stoned to 16 (another huge mistake), and I finished out at 25 and TR'd. Since then I've been learning to play the game. But if I had stayed on my path I probably would have quit the game. As weak as paladins are, the paths are even worse and I was basically useless my first life (no gear, no experience, low DPS class).

    Edit: I joined just before MotU, so I only had a taste of the game before epic destinies and epic 20-25 happened.

  13. #13
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Why not allow first life toons the ability to roll stats. Roll, roll, and roll, until you get the all 18's. Then after you roflstomp the first life, you get point buy for the second life and beyond.

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    From your story, it sounds more like the first two were more turned off because they had the idea of TRing pushed on them, when it isn't actually very important. At the time that level 20 was the cap you could get a first life character to have enough Spell Penetration to get the job done, past lives just meant that you could lower your feat and enhancement investment in it to achieve the same result. And now, even if you have sufficient Spell Pen you still can not reliably land your DC based spells in the harder eGH quests. As far as pure Paladin AAs go, well, even multi-TRed gimps are still gimped. There just isn't any synergy there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    It left me wondering how many others might have left for the same kind of feeling. Of not being on truly equal footing at the point of character creation as old timers.
    Why should someone rolling up their first character be on 'equal footing' with someone who has been playing for years? If they were, then that would mean that there is nothing in the game to work towards. It is nothing like EVE Online, where new players do not have any ability, no matter how hard they try, to catch up to veteran players. They just need to learn the game and accumulate some gear. TRing is an entirely elective set of perks.

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    Perhaps your advice to TR their characters was wrong. They should have instead kept one character at cap to farm stuff and start another one, better built.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Perhaps your advice to TR their characters was wrong. They should have instead kept one character at cap to farm stuff and start another one, better built.
    I agree.

    what would a TR get you really?

    If you were a barbarian you would get 10 HP and a couple build points. but remember, build points are not stat points. So really important stats you cant really move for 2 points as they would already be maxed or close to it. it means slightly less important stats might move up and that might make a point of difference for something....


    lets consider con. IF you had low CON you might get 1 more HP per level ... so at leve l20 you would have 20 HP from the build points and 10 HP from a past life barbarian. or 30 HP...

    well. you could have made yourself a green steel HP item for 45 HP... plus some exceptional stat boost. (that is the entire stat, not just the build point).

    run the shround and get a plus 2 stat tom... way more important than the build points. (no time for that go buy yourself a plus 4 tome)... if it matters that much.


    One of the characters you mentioned in the OP was a paladin. they get 5% more healing amplification for a past life, but you can make a green steel itelm to get you 70% more. why tell them to TR?

    Step one... level up, step 2, get the gear to make you more effective. In teh meantime, run again with a different class or race and experinment for fun if u really dont want to TR your character.... the first lives are a little weaker, but if u can provide gear and gold they will be fine and because it takes way less exp, that more than makes up for the fewer build points..... By sending gold and gear over you cna make that one a lot easier to run too and maybe plan to TR it. make rogues and clerics for big undead pits, and make rangers for wilderness areas. explore the world.

  17. #17
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    Default My first life 28pt build rocks!

    My first life 28pt arti build rocks!

    I don't see a need to TR or even LR or GR. with EDs.

    Although I've only been playing since last Dec. I've come to realize allot of the game is about the skill of the person pushing the keys on the keyboard. I feel I still have a long journey ahead of me in learning the DDO. I have to admit I find the TR grind repugnent.

    Sure folks still exclude me from PUGs, because I was chewie when I first got to L20. I needed gear and had no EDs started. Now with allot better gear and some capped EDs under my belt I can do more than some of the old timer multi-life builds. I range DPS, spot heal, and throw out the res when needed. I'm bufficer,healificer,blastificer, and ranged dps all in one package. And break out the melee when need be. However, I took great care in building my arti. Its my 3rd toon. I still play the others.

    My build does not have any trouble with EH CitW and FoT. I've found with the right team of raid players (teamworkers) those raids are a breeze through. I haven't tried those on EE, yet, because I can't find any fellow crazy peeps to run it with.

    For EE quests, the first fight in EE T0R still gives me a bit of trouble, but once past that I'm fine. When the giants 1st enter they like to mob me all at once : )) I only have a handful of EE T0Rs under my belt, because its hard to get into PUGs for it with no evasion and being a 1st life 28pt build.

    The only quest I don't have completed on EE that is tough for my build is Outbreak. I get to just a sliver of life left on the end boss and then run out of gas each time. Maybe with Unyielding Sentinel maxed for the hp boost will put me over the top? I plan to try that.

    I wanted to share my newbie thoughts, opinions, and observations. Any advice on running EE content would be most welcomed (especially Outbreak : )

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    Community Member Hazelnut's Avatar
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    Thanks for an interesting read. To the people who offered friendship and good advice, thank you. It's appreciated.

    To the people who thought they were offering advice but are mostly putting down anyone who is new, think on this. If you don't have a constant influx of new players, your game will die. You may be able to go somewhere else, but they you are new player. someone with a level 20 character (unless purchased outright) has put in the effort and time to learn the game.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

  19. #19
    Community Member Hazelnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    It left me wondering how many others might have left for the same kind of feeling. Of not being on truly equal footing at the point of character creation as old timers.
    I am one of those, probably rare, new players. I've been playing for a week. One of the things I noticed is that I can unlock the 32 point build in the DDO store by simply buying it OR it unlocks when I get some amount of favor (like 1750 or some such). Since DDO is free-to-play, being able to buy the 32-point build instead of making a throw-away toon is pretty reasonable as long as the cost isn't that bad. At 1150 (on sale) point (with the optimum buy of about 100 points to the $), that's pretty expensive in my opinion but not unreasonable.

    I chose the 28 points build first time intending to make a throw-away character to simply try the game. I've found that too many F2P games exist only to suck money out of you. The number of times a parent gets a $2000 bill because their kid is playing a "free" game on their iPad or iPhone is pretty shocking. So much so, that Apple is even making changes to the way their billing system works just to stop that sort of nonsense from happening.

    I've been here a week. Made it to level 3. Figured out a couple of things I would like to change about my build already but I'm loath to toss her and start fresh spending another week to get back to level 3. But, more importantly, I won't be able to keep my name if I do that and I like my name. "Hazelnut" (only on Wayfinder) might be a cute and silly name but it comes from a previous game and I'm sort of attached to it. I do wish I could be Hazelnut on another server, though. I would be more willing to start fresh on a different world.

    I do agree with your point that the divide between new players and old players is most likely far to big when they are both level 20. 4 extra points (28 vs 32) isn't that much. But 8 points (28 vs 36) is a much bigger divide and add to that a 36 point build has 2 or 3 (I forget the minimum) past life feats and your newcomer really is gimped and frustrated.

    I have no idea if the folks at Turbine are reading this (your post) but I don't see why a game like DDO or any other MMO created in the last 10 years should need to die. What it needs is a major refresh to become DDO2. This could mean an entirely new client and would almost certainly involve new servers but could offer a nice incentive whereby someone on DDO can choose to inherit some of their toon from DDO onto the DDO2 server while making more balance play between old and new characters. It also gives the excuse for a big marketing push and advertising to bring in new player, or bring back players that have abandoned it (like your friends).

    Then again, from what I'm reading something like that (although lacking the big marketing push and excitement) is happening already. Lots of complains on the forums about some upcoming release that is in beta. Lots of excitement about expansions being released. All it needs is a few TV ads or better Crackle and Hulu ads. In my view (as a new player) all the crabbing and complaining from oldbies about how their characters are going to be gimped because of the new enhancements system is a good sign. It might put the new and old on a more even footing.

    One more thing: about me. Like your other friends, I've played PnP D&D, I play some single player RPGs (including the old PC versions of D&D), and I've dabbled in MMOs. I have the most fun in the building phase of a character. A level 20 with nowhere to go who can pretty much take on anything single handedly (except possibly a few rare baddies) isn't any fun anymore. So, in a way, I'm looking forward to True Reincarnation as a chance to be low level and have to watch the red bar and figure out how to hit the baddie without getting hit myself.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
    In my view (as a new player) all the crabbing and complaining from oldbies about how their characters are going to be gimped because of the new enhancements system is a good sign. It might put the new and old on a more even footing.
    A silly statement like that shows you have much to learn grasshopper.

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