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  1. #1
    Community Member ushram's Avatar
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    Default Devs, Why so serious?

    Devs, Why so serious?

    I mean, why so linear?

    I will start off by saying there are some great quests in this game. Most of the great quests in my opinion are the quests that have a high replay value. When I say high replay value, I do not mean xp or items, I mean the fun factor, the factor that makes a quest less boring to run repeatedly. But I have noticed a trend in the past several adventure packs, and this trend is quests tending to be extremely linear. Go from begin to end in a straight or zigzag line, with little to know thinking and extremely low replay value.

    In my opinion some of the great quests in this game are the ones that offer multiple outcomes or multiple paths to the end of the quest.

    For example the following quests.

    First take a look at one of the best designed packs quest wise in my opinon. The Amrath pack for example.

    Genesis Point (one of my favorite quests in design, but I am not a fan of the Amrath lore)

    Within this quest there are various objectives to complete along with puzzles, traps etc. The puzzle mechanic is great, the first time doing this quest actually took some teamwork and problem solving skills. Upon learning these mechanics they do not become tedious or delay the progress of the quest. The thing that gives this quest such a high replay value in my opinion are the multiple endings. At least 4 choices on how to end the quest, which makes it less boring to repeat the quest itself.

    Sins of Attrition

    While Sins is not too mazelike it does offer 6 possible endings, by choosing items upon the table halfway through the quest, it will determine the end boss that you fight. Another nice addition to this quest are the random rare encounters that award the player for exploring the entire dungeon.

    A New Invasion

    I personally love the layout of this quest. So much is randomized, from levers to portals, to drop points. I just love the maze factor in this quest, keeps the quest interesting while you repeat the quest.
    One negative thing about the quest is the timed factor, I just hate timed quests in general.

    Litany of the Dead

    Out of all the quests in the Necropolis this is hands down my favorite. It has an interesting layout and several surprises along the way. Halfway through the quest, you meet the dragon and you have a choice between four possible end fights, that each have a special item that you can use in the end fight. The riddle halfway through the quest(or the end of the quest) was just a great add-on in my opinion, especially the first several times running the quest. The fake floors, the fake treasure chests, they all got me the first time around. Mainly it’s the multiple endings the just increase the replay value in this quest for me.

    Here are some others that I consider good quests in design.

    The Cursed Crypt

    I know most people hate this pack, but I enjoy this quest, always reminds me of Castlevania for some reason. This quest is not as linear and does have some random elements to the quest. One big negative thing though is the time limit.

    Partycrashers

    Although this quest is a low level quest, I feel it has some great mechanics to it. Here is a quest that has multiple optionals that can have an effect on the end fight. The quest is interesting and has a very unique puzzle along with some surprises for first time adventurers. Another great thing about this quest is the optional after the quest is finished to test the strength of the party fighting the optional boss in the backroom.

    Against the Demon Queen
    (pre raid)

    Although this quest does not have the multiple ending factor, I do think the riddle mechanic in the beginning is a nice element, it effects the course of the quest and the order that you proceed through the quest. Some more random elements would be ideal.

    Now take for example some of the new quests over the past year.

    Detour

    This quest has a nice outdoor setting but its extremely linear. One pathway through the forest, no puzzles, no riddles, nothing but a pathway to the end. Extremely low replay value in my eyes.

    Don't Drink the Water

    This quest is marked as long for some reason, but again its one pathway through a cave to the boss. No real surprises along the way, no puzzles, riddles etc, same boss fight every time. Low replay value.

    Lost in the Swamp

    Again another quest that is pretty much a one pathway to the final boss. Nothing really surprising in this quest, nothing too interesting. Only thing that was very challenging was the first time doing the quest and trying to get the chest on top of the pillar after the boss fight.

    Out of all the new quests over the past year or so, I only find one of them to be truly unique and that is ‘in the belly of the beast’ I found that quest to be very enjoyable but not a great replay value. I just don’t understand the direction that the quest design has taken over the past 1 or 2 years. Put the group on a path, walk to the end, finish. It would be nice if some of the new quests could be as interesting and unique as some of the old quest designs. I really hope a new pack comes along with the uniqueness and imagination that the Amrath pack brought to DDO. I don't know, maybe I am in a minority group for what I find fun or what I find to have a high replay value. (note, I have not tried the new beta quest s on Lam)
    Ainur Wer'lak Thelanis

  2. #2
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    I agree that adding variation to quest endings and adding randomness to quest features like hidden doors and traps can enhance the replayability of a quest.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ushram View Post
    I mean, why so linear?
    It basically comes down to cost. Making non-linear quests requires more skill for both developers and programmers. As well as more time spent testing and crushing bugs.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 07-16-2013 at 03:46 PM. Reason: typo
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    It's funny, most of the quests listed in the OP as being great are the ones I hate having to run. Puzzles, mazes, constant backtracking, having to figure stuff out--that sort of thing only appeals to a small crowd, I think. And I think Turbine knows it. Too many quests like that, and people like me will be gnashing our teeth (and skipping them whenever possible).

    One every so often is fine, but too many just leads to frustration, I think. Crucible falls in there with those "unique" "interesting" quests. It's nice to run once in a while, but when it's REQUIRED and on elite no less because of BB requirements, it really sucks.

    This is the way I see it: I work my butt off at work all day trying to overcome one obstacle after another. When I get home, I want to relax, not beat my head against the wall because it took us 45 minutes to get through the maze but then we wiped on the demon boss and traps. I'm not asking for WOW simplicity and brain-numbing stupidity, just a happy medium.

  5. #5
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    It's funny, most of the quests listed in the OP as being great are the ones I hate having to run. Puzzles, mazes, constant backtracking, having to figure stuff out--that sort of thing only appeals to a small crowd, I think. And I think Turbine knows it. Too many quests like that, and people like me will be gnashing our teeth (and skipping them whenever possible).

    One every so often is fine, but too many just leads to frustration, I think. Crucible falls in there with those "unique" "interesting" quests. It's nice to run once in a while, but when it's REQUIRED and on elite no less because of BB requirements, it really sucks.

    This is the way I see it: I work my butt off at work all day trying to overcome one obstacle after another. When I get home, I want to relax, not beat my head against the wall because it took us 45 minutes to get through the maze but then we wiped on the demon boss and traps. I'm not asking for WOW simplicity and brain-numbing stupidity, just a happy medium.
    This is why we can only get boring quests, get in, go forward, kill everything (God forbid skipping a single creature, you must slay them all, sneaking is for weak).
    Most of playerbase hate to think and use any skill or tactic, other than autoattack (remember all those people hating they must click 5 new buttons on their barbs?)
    Doing anything non facerollable by low skill and weak build players will get massive hate and uproar.

  6. #6
    Community Member ushram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    It's funny, most of the quests listed in the OP as being great are the ones I hate having to run. Puzzles, mazes, constant backtracking, having to figure stuff out--that sort of thing only appeals to a small crowd, I think. And I think Turbine knows it. Too many quests like that, and people like me will be gnashing our teeth (and skipping them whenever possible).

    One every so often is fine, but too many just leads to frustration, I think. Crucible falls in there with those "unique" "interesting" quests. It's nice to run once in a while, but when it's REQUIRED and on elite no less because of BB requirements, it really sucks.

    This is the way I see it: I work my butt off at work all day trying to overcome one obstacle after another. When I get home, I want to relax, not beat my head against the wall because it took us 45 minutes to get through the maze but then we wiped on the demon boss and traps. I'm not asking for WOW simplicity and brain-numbing stupidity, just a happy medium.
    I do see your point, if every quest was like GP or A New Invasion, it could make take a lot of time to complete etc.

    But take for example Sins, its pretty straight forward, but has multiple endings that can increase the replay value when you are running it over and over.

    Two of my main points are with most of the new quests,

    1. I feel we are put in a animal pen with fences on both sides and forced to move straight ahead until the track finishes.

    2. The scenery along the way stays the same. If I am forced to repeat quests several times to advance in lv or now in ED, it would be nice to take several different roads along the way.
    Ainur Wer'lak Thelanis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    It's funny, most of the quests listed in the OP as being great are the ones I hate having to run. Puzzles, mazes, constant backtracking, having to figure stuff out--that sort of thing only appeals to a small crowd, I think. And I think Turbine knows it. Too many quests like that, and people like me will be gnashing our teeth (and skipping them whenever possible).
    I'm not sure that subset who enjoys those quests is as small as you think - it may be a larger group than you notice because they also cross section with players who play less frequently than those with the zerg/xp play style.

    But what this illustrates to me is the power of variety and options and the risk of forced consumption. This game has a lot of quests, obviously not everyone likes every quest or every kind of quest yet still there is something for everyone. If a, cough cough, new mechanism is introduced that forces you to play through (and repeat) all the quests you dislike just to advance your character in the game, you're going to get frustrated; as frustrated as the OP would be in having to play through (and repeat) all of the straightforward linear quests they dislike.

  8. #8
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ushram View Post
    Devs, Why so serious?

    I mean, why so linear?

    I will start off by saying there are some great quests in this game. Most of the great quests in my opinion are the quests that have a high replay value. When I say high replay value, I do not mean xp or items, I mean the fun factor, the factor that makes a quest less boring to run repeatedly. But I have noticed a trend in the past several adventure packs, and this trend is quests tending to be extremely linear. Go from begin to end in a straight or zigzag line, with little to know thinking and extremely low replay value.
    I suspect the dev team has evolved from a bunch of game loving comedians that got together on weekends with lots of party supplies and alcohol for late night brainstorming coming up with quests and challenges ...

    to

    Boss telling everyone to bring their lunches for the 8am boardroom meeting with the marketing team to figure out the best way to get customers to spend their money for the least amount of programming time because management says payroll costs are too high so they need to show progress and profits or they will have to start cutting manpower.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    This is why we can only get boring quests, get in, go forward, kill everything (God forbid skipping a single creature, you must slay them all, sneaking is for weak).
    Most of playerbase hate to think and use any skill or tactic, other than autoattack (remember all those people hating they must click 5 new buttons on their barbs?)
    Doing anything non facerollable by low skill and weak build players will get massive hate and uproar.
    I was waiting for this sort of response. I'm not uber enough, and too low skilled, and weak, to do the "harder" stuff. Thanks. But check your ego for a second and consider that I may just not ENJOY those quests, regardless of my actual skill. And I won't bother trying to prove my skill to you, sir, because its obvious you're too uber for what I say to matter.

  10. #10
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    Default Complexity is a good investment

    Seconded.

    This was brought home to me by running Disciples of Shar for the first time, fresh from Meridia and the Vale.

    Look at a questing experience as if you were a theatre critic, and to my mind Gianthold and the Vale (yes even Crucible and Coal Chamber) are the peak of the quest designers' art in DDO. I will give you Amrath as a good third if you insist.

    So apart from Ritual Sacrifice (and even that is more interesting than the latest offerings) they are all thought provoking, challenging, interesting to look at, and all have the odd "wow!" moments. Then I moved on the Disciples of Shar and all I could think was "Is that it?"

    A few thoughts.

    One is, the true variable that is always different is the other players in the group. This is what keeps The Shroud fresh for me - I have only done it 40 or 50 times, but even then you would have expected boredom to creep in. But PUG Shroud groups are always ready to surprise! So good quest design has different tasks for different players, which is a good way to get endless replay value.

    Another is that Turbine presumably look at the run statistics. I might run quest "X" carefully the first time enjoying the surprises, then fast the next nine times. This could lead them to assume that only 10% of players appreciate the scenery. But nothing could be further from the truth.

    Lastly, boring hack and slash quests actually have limited scope for speeding them up. All you can do is hack faster. Challenging quests tend to have a trick or two, preferably involving team work, that once learned enables you to halve the completion time, not just knock 10% off it.

    And, on the slim off-chance that a Turbine suit ever reads this:
    Complexity = more repeats plays before boredom.
    More repeats plays before boredom = customer retention
    Customer retention = ... Actually for all I know you might not be trying to make money, so I'll keep quiet here.
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  11. #11
    Community Member ushram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brunhildha View Post
    Seconded.

    This was brought home to me by running Disciples of Shar for the first time, fresh from Meridia and the Vale.

    Look at a questing experience as if you were a theatre critic, and to my mind Gianthold and the Vale (yes even Crucible and Coal Chamber) are the peak of the quest designers' art in DDO. I will give you Amrath as a good third if you insist.

    So apart from Ritual Sacrifice (and even that is more interesting than the latest offerings) they are all thought provoking, challenging, interesting to look at, and all have the odd "wow!" moments. Then I moved on the Disciples of Shar and all I could think was "Is that it?"

    A few thoughts.

    One is, the true variable that is always different is the other players in the group. This is what keeps The Shroud fresh for me - I have only done it 40 or 50 times, but even then you would have expected boredom to creep in. But PUG Shroud groups are always ready to surprise! So good quest design has different tasks for different players, which is a good way to get endless replay value.

    Another is that Turbine presumably look at the run statistics. I might run quest "X" carefully the first time enjoying the surprises, then fast the next nine times. This could lead them to assume that only 10% of players appreciate the scenery. But nothing could be further from the truth.

    Lastly, boring hack and slash quests actually have limited scope for speeding them up. All you can do is hack faster. Challenging quests tend to have a trick or two, preferably involving team work, that once learned enables you to halve the completion time, not just knock 10% off it.

    And, on the slim off-chance that a Turbine suit ever reads this:
    Complexity = more repeats plays before boredom.
    More repeats plays before boredom = customer retention
    Customer retention = ... Actually for all I know you might not be trying to make money, so I'll keep quiet here.
    oh I agree with you on most points here,

    I love vale quests, rainbow and coal ( I still get lost in coal after 50+ runs of it) are two of my favorite quests in the game. One thing I absolutely love about the vale is the setting and quest structure is great too. As I stated above, I am not a fan of the lore or the settings in Amrath, I was merely pointing out the design of the quests. If there were some other quests in vale that had the same setting but with the quest designs from Amrath, they would probably be my favorite quests in the game.
    Ainur Wer'lak Thelanis

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    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Sadists.

  13. #13
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    Some of the quests you praise the most are the ones I like the least. Coalescence chamber, many of the necro flag quests, inferno of the damned, crucible. The house pharlin spies chain was so annoying to me that I almost wish I could get my money back. If that was the game, I'd be playing something else.

    I would like to see more quests like framework where I can go in and enjoy a good scrap, but there are other options for those who wish to be clever. It is great when there are multiple ways to come at a quest. Waiting in the crucible for an hour while the swimmer tries one more time....

    No thank you.

  14. #14
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    I'd like to add all of the Lordsmarch quests to the list of non-"linear" quests. Undermine and Siegebreaker perhaps a little less so, but they still manage to add some variety to what are otherwise essentially linear dungeons.
    There are no "puzzles" as such in any of the quests; at most just quest-item hide'n'seek (Blockade Buster); but IMO they are still, individually and as a whole, varied and interesting in theme and execution.

    I also liked the Phiarlan Carnival chain. Same thing there, I think - essentially linear quests, but which don't really feel like it.

    Maybe I'm just a claustrophobic gamer, and don't like my characters being physically hemmed in?

  15. #15
    Community Member ushram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Some of the quests you praise the most are the ones I like the least. Coalescence chamber, many of the necro flag quests, inferno of the damned, crucible. The house pharlin spies chain was so annoying to me that I almost wish I could get my money back. If that was the game, I'd be playing something else.

    I would like to see more quests like framework where I can go in and enjoy a good scrap, but there are other options for those who wish to be clever. It is great when there are multiple ways to come at a quest. Waiting in the crucible for an hour while the swimmer tries one more time....

    No thank you.
    I only named one of those quests that you listed, in house p (partycrashers)
    The reason I mentioned partycrashers, is because it gives you a choice, you can
    1. go right to the end of the quest, skip the optionals and have your end fight
    or
    2. go to the end, then do the optionals and avoid the end fight.

    So this quest compliments both the person that wants to finish a quest quickly and those that like to play it out further. In my opinion options as we see in this quest are quite worthwhile.

    Crucible is a different story, that's why I did not include it, because it requires a certain build / class to complete the quest easily. Those types of quests, while unique, should not make up the majority of quests in game. One every now and then is ok in my opinion.

    I personally am not too fond of Mario jump quests but I think coal had a good design. (I did not list the originally either)

    I also am not fond of inferno, mainly do to timed responses of the altars and some of the quest setup.

    Framework is also a good quest, it's not linear and has a nice setup.

    One of my main points was multiple endings to the quests, as I used Sins for an example, its not overly complex but offers a nice end to it, creating a high repeat value in my opinion.
    Ainur Wer'lak Thelanis

  16. #16
    Community Member UniqueToo's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Turbine should take a page from the torchlight games - Randomized dungeons.

    Infinite levels of semi-randomly generated monsters (select enemy type(s) and spawn random variations of those), where each time you go down a level the enemy level and loot is raised by 1. Add a random boss (could be a random monster as above, but scaled up and given some of that type of creatures special abilities) at the end of each level before the ladder/doorway down.

    Every 3 to 5 levels they could add a village area to sell/repair stuff, buy supplies, take a break, and bind your characters for logging out and continuing later (or getting new group members). It could even scale for raid groups!

    Wouldn't this be the perfect underdark?

    All turbine need to do to create a system like this is:
    1. Create say 5 maps (add more later as time/resources permits)
    2. Add some code to look up their creature database and spawn random creatures by type on the pre-set spawnpoints on the map.
    3. Add some code to look up creatures by type and generate a spell/ability list to pick from randomly for bosses.
    4. Create a few village maps.
    5. When time permits, add a randomized puzzles, random people to talk to in dungeons, etc.

    How could DDO go wrong with an inifinite random quest system? Specially one that is simple to improve later, and can be reused endlessly as resources become available to put in.

    Anyway, just my 2c.
    Last edited by UniqueToo; 07-16-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Some of the quests you praise the most are the ones I like the least. Coalescence chamber, many of the necro flag quests, inferno of the damned, crucible. The house pharlin spies chain was so annoying to me that I almost wish I could get my money back. If that was the game, I'd be playing something else.

    I would like to see more quests like framework where I can go in and enjoy a good scrap, but there are other options for those who wish to be clever. It is great when there are multiple ways to come at a quest. Waiting in the crucible for an hour while the swimmer tries one more time....

    No thank you.
    The quests the OP mentions and you hate ARE D&D! That's what happened to this game: the developers have stopped trying to make it D&D and instead are making it like every other MMO. Not only the quests but the new Enhancements support this.

    The developers keep looking for a way to force the players to play more of the quest instead of zerging. They add Dungeon Alert, etc. Maybe instead of this type of thing they should just make more complex quests

    I can hear people yelling about their XP/min but somehow I don't think that when TR was introduced that is what the devs were envisioning.

  18. #18
    Community Member ushram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueToo View Post
    Turbine should take a page from the torchlight games - Randomized dungeons.

    Infinite levels of semi-randomly generated monsters (select enemy type(s) and spawn random variations of those), where each time you go down a level the enemy level and loot is raised by 1. Add a random boss (could be a random monster as above, but scaled up and given some of that type of creatures special abilities) at the end of each level before the ladder/doorway down.

    Every 3 to 5 levels they could add a village area to sell/repair stuff, buy supplies, take a break, and bind your characters for logging out and continuing later (or getting new group members). It could even scale for raid groups!

    Wouldn't this be the perfect underdark?

    All turbine need to do to create a system like this is:
    1. Create say 5 maps (add more later as time/resources permits)
    2. Add some code to look up their creature database and spawn random creatures by type on the pre-set spawnpoints on the map.
    3. Add some code to look up creatures by type and generate a spell/ability list to pick from randomly for bosses.
    4. Create a few village maps.
    5. When time permits, add a randomized puzzles, random people to talk to in dungeons, etc.

    How could DDO go wrong with an inifinite random quest system? Specially one that is simple to improve later, and can be reused endlessly as resources become available to put in.

    Anyway, just my 2c.
    In Amrath's "a new invasion' the quest is sorta like this. I do think it would be very cool to have a Invasion type quest that was quite long but I would guess the DA would be through the roof since it seems that overlapping floors tend to mash together for sake of aggro detection.
    Ainur Wer'lak Thelanis

  19. #19
    Community Member UniqueToo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ushram View Post
    In Amrath's "a new invasion' the quest is sorta like this. I do think it would be very cool to have a Invasion type quest that was quite long but I would guess the DA would be through the roof since it seems that overlapping floors tend to mash together for sake of aggro detection.
    Under this idea, each level is literally a new instance (like enterring a new quest). No floor issues.

    At the end of the quest you would have a door or portal to the next level down.

    I guess there could easy be multiple paths to take, each with a door/portal to a different next quest too (maybe someone to talk to at the start to pick a direction to find a specific enemy type in the next quest?).
    Last edited by UniqueToo; 07-16-2013 at 09:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ushram View Post
    1. I feel we are put in a animal pen with fences on both sides and forced to move straight ahead until the track finishes.
    ^^^^this^^^^

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