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  1. #1
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Default Alpha strike - a sick joke?

    ok 10w sound awesome.. but wait.. druid wild form do not get base 2w weapon in epic.. so this is just normal 5w after you reaching level 20..

    it cost tons of ap(it self been tier five, and require entire line at level 3 to train this to max rank)

    to use it it cost 20sp...

    how much damage does it do? 10~120(winter wolf base die 1d12).. serious with 20sp spend, i could do more damage far away using other spell.. on druid spell list.. and i don't have to be in melee range.. (ture alpha strike may critical hit, but so do any of the spells)

    oh~~~ wait.. it get even better.. it also cost one charge of wild empathy...so with max enahncement you can use this up to six times per rest.. congratulation after spending 15 ap you now can use great cleave six times per rest with the cost of 20sp and 1 charge of wild empathy per cast..


    p.s. also Bestial Nature.. is a great trait.. it is insight bonus.. so the positive effect does not stack with gears, while the negative effect always stack.. so if you think your save is too high, go ahead and grab this trait, it will lower your will save by significant amount while do you no good at end game~~
    Last edited by decease; 07-15-2013 at 07:39 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member tricnic's Avatar
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    Ok, so to clarify what the OP was saying, Alpha Strike has a great deal going against it.

    Pros:
    No cooldown means you can spam it reliably.

    Cons:
    - Tier 5, 3 ranks, 2 AP per rank means you have to invest 32 AP (minimum) to use it, and 36 to make it not suck horribly.
    - 20 SP cost means you'll be going through your SP really fast if you use this in any normal rotation - even faster if you spam it. This might be maintainable if you were tanking with Essence of the Tortoise and a ConcOp item, but we all know how much Bear form sucks, so that's right out the window.
    - The attack does +10[W], so the damage range is 11-132 before damage increases and multipliers. If you go pure Druid and all into Nature's Warrior, you could have this by 9th level. The damage is OK at that level, but still lacking. Later on, it is going to be far overshadowed by pretty much everything else.

    Testing with it, I was seeing hits that were only marginally better than Great Cleave. GC was hitting for 47-110, and Alpha Strike hitting for 57-114 at level 28. There is no way a +2[W] attack should be doing just as much damage as a +10[W] attack.

    So, yeah, not much going for it. How do we fix it, though?

    One idea is to reduce the SP cost. 10-12 is much more reasonable but doesn't really fix the low damage output of it.
    Alternatively, increase the damage. Bring it up to +5/+10/+15 and stick a cooldown on it comparable to Great Cleave.
    Another idea is to allow it a minimum damage like spells. For Ice Wolves 11D5+55 (minimum half damage) and for Dire Bears 11D6+66
    Have it increase as you level up. Maybe +1[W] per Druid level (max +15[W] at 15th)

    Note: While it says "Costs 1 Improved Wild Empathy", currently, Alpha Strike does not consume Improved (or regular) Wild Empathy uses. Either this is a bug, or WAI and someone forgot to remove that part of the tooltip text.
    Last edited by tricnic; 07-15-2013 at 08:54 PM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricnic View Post
    Ok, so to clarify what the OP was saying, Alpha Strike has a great deal going against it.

    Pros:
    No cooldown means you can spam it reliably.

    Cons:
    - Tier 5, 3 ranks, 2 AP per rank means you have to invest 32 AP (minimum) to use it, and 36 to make it not suck horribly.
    - 20 SP cost means you'll be going through your SP really fast if you use this in any normal rotation - even faster if you spam it. This might be maintainable if you were tanking with Essence of the Tortoise and a ConcOp item, but we all know how much Bear form sucks, so that's right out the window.
    - The attack does +10[W], so the damage range is 11-132 before damage increases and multipliers. If you go pure Druid and all into Nature's Warrior, you could have this by 9th level. The damage is OK at that level, but still lacking. Later on, it is going to be far overshadowed by pretty much everything else.

    Testing with it, I was seeing hits that were only marginally better than Great Cleave. GC was hitting for 47-110, and Alpha Strike hitting for 57-114 at level 28. There is no way a +2[W] attack should be doing just as much damage as a +10[W] attack.

    So, yeah, not much going for it. How do we fix it, though?

    One idea is to reduce the SP cost. 10-12 is much more reasonable but doesn't really fix the low damage output of it.
    Alternatively, increase the damage. Bring it up to +5/+10/+15 and stick a cooldown on it comparable to Great Cleave.
    Another idea is to allow it a minimum damage like spells. For Ice Wolves 11D5+55 (minimum half damage) and for Dire Bears 11D6+66
    Have it increase as you level up. Maybe +1[W] per Druid level (max +15[W] at 15th)

    Note: While it says "Costs 1 Improved Wild Empathy", currently, Alpha Strike does not consume Improved (or regular) Wild Empathy uses. Either this is a bug, or WAI and someone forgot to remove that part of the tooltip text.
    you misunderstood my meaning of 2w.

    many epic above weapon have base die of 2w. for example 1d6 quarterstaff(example would be Stout Oak Walking Stick) become 2d6 base.. (some epic increase die side instead of extra die.. an example would be spear of sky, which become 1d10 from 1d6). that means 10w(2d6) instead of 10w (1d6) that's double the damage. which is why i said alpha strike is really 5w damage instead of 10w.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decease View Post
    you misunderstood my meaning of 2w.

    many epic above weapon have base die of 2w. for example 1d6 quarterstaff(example would be Stout Oak Walking Stick) become 2d6 base.. (some epic increase die side instead of extra die.. an example would be spear of sky, which become 1d10 from 1d6). that means 10w(2d6) instead of 10w (1d6) that's double the damage. which is why i said alpha strike is really 5w damage instead of 10w.
    A basic epic weapon is 2[w] so lets say a 1d6 base weapon the weapon is 2[1d6] and ability that does 10w makes that attack do 12[1d6] not 10[2d6].

  5. #5
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    A basic epic weapon is 2[w] so lets say a 1d6 base weapon the weapon is 2[1d6] and ability that does 10w makes that attack do 12[1d6] not 10[2d6].
    as i said.. check out the example i give you..

    Stout Oak Walking Stick 2[2d6], spear of sky 2[1d10] they both are staff.. there are many other weapon like this.. mostly at epic level.. like epic staff of nat gann.. etc..

    p.s. if you aren't using these speical weapon.. then your cleave will not do as much damage as it should be.. i assume you do not play fighter nor using fighter ed.. else you should have known.. this is core of every cleave build..
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  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decease View Post
    as i said.. check out the example i give you..

    Stout Oak Walking Stick 2[2d6], spear of sky 2[1d10] they both are staff.. there are many other weapon like this.. mostly at epic level.. like epic staff of nat gann.. etc..

    p.s. if you aren't using these speical weapon.. then your cleave will not do as much damage as it should be.. i assume you do not play fighter nor using fighter ed.. else you should have known.. this is core of every cleave build..
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Antique_Greataxe
    2[1d20] if it was somehow to use alpha strike you'd get 12[1d20]

    btw my wolf build does 5.75[1d10] 17-18 x3 19-20 x4 and with a past life i could pump it up to 6.25[1d10]

    an esos with ic would be
    2.5[2d6] 15-18 x3 19-20 x4

    so it has a better crit profile still but the wolf has better base damage, though to be fair you could get the esos to 3[w] with ed's.

    So back to alpha strike lets look at the max possible roll for the damage
    eAGA
    12.5[1d20] = 250

    eSoS
    13[2d6] = 156

    Stout Walking Stick
    12.5[2d6] = 150

    my wolf build

    15.75[1d10] = 157.5

    now this doesn't take into account all the modifiers that do final damage or crits, just the base weapon damage that's applied yes some weapons are higher and some are lower, if you build your wolf for damage.

    I agree there are some things that could be better about the ability but you're really not losing out too much.

  7. #7
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    my wolf build
    15.75[1d10] = 157.5
    hmm where you get 5.75w from? you sure your base die is 1d10 not 1d6 with monk level? not sure how monk and druid form work..seem pretty buggy to me..

    also you know.. even the weapon(handwrap) may be 2.5 or 3w.. when transform into wolf weapon die remain as 1d10... am not 100% sure about this

    edit: i test this in game.. and with a monk wolf i deal 13~50 damage.. i hit those kobold over 100 times never seen any number greater then 50.. and i should have 16w on alpha strike by your theory..
    Last edited by decease; 07-16-2013 at 06:31 AM.
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Something that would make the enhancement a LOT more attractive would be to include a permanent buff in it. Say, +0.5[W] damage per tier while in wild shape. Animal form druids need a buff to their base damage badly anyway, wrapping it into this enhancement makes it a nice combination of basic damage buff with the occasional Flip Out and Kill Everything clickie.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decease View Post
    hmm where you get 5.75w from? you sure your base die is 1d10 not 1d6 with monk level? not sure how monk and druid form work..seem pretty buggy to me..

    also you know.. even the weapon(handwrap) may be 2.5 or 3w.. when transform into wolf weapon die remain as 1d10... am not 100% sure about this

    edit: i test this in game.. and with a monk wolf i deal 13~50 damage.. i hit those kobold over 100 times never seen any number greater then 50.. and i should have 16w on alpha strike by your theory..
    the 1d6 with monk levels was fixed, it was broken for the first few months but now you get the proper weapon dice and crit profile and monk levels and gear add weapon modifiers.

    1 base
    1 from 8 monk levels
    .5 reinforced fists
    1 from epic wraps (unlisted bonus)
    1.5 dance of flowers
    .75 dancing with flames
    =
    5.75w

    you can get one more .5[w] with monk active past life.
    Last edited by Charononus; 07-16-2013 at 04:19 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    the 1d6 with monk levels was fixed, it was broken for the first few months but now you get the proper weapon dice and crit profile and monk levels and gear add weapon modifiers.

    1 base
    1 from 8 monk levels
    .5 reinforced fists
    1 from epic wraps (unlisted bonus)
    1.5 dance of flowers
    .75 dancing with flames
    =
    5.75w

    you can get one more .5[w] with monk active past life.
    dancing with flames... wow..you are actually using monk ed?

    btw if you want it so badly you can twist in fighter ed that grant 0.5w when you active power attack..

    p.s. i still find druid ed better suit for druid..
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  11. #11
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decease View Post
    dancing with flames... wow..you are actually using monk ed?

    btw if you want it so badly you can twist in fighter ed that grant 0.5w when you active power attack..

    p.s. i still find druid ed better suit for druid..
    You can twist in Dance of Flowers quite cheaply, it's only Tier 2. Very worthwhile if you're a centered animal form druid.

    Unfortunately, I'm pretty attached to using shields on my own druid, so it doesn't do me any good. I find it deeply annoying that you have to be centered to get a decent base damage boost for an animal form druid. (The 0.5[W] from the power attack ability isn't quite worth it in my estimation).
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  12. #12
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    You can twist in Dance of Flowers quite cheaply, it's only Tier 2. Very worthwhile if you're a centered animal form druid.

    Unfortunately, I'm pretty attached to using shields on my own druid, so it doesn't do me any good. I find it deeply annoying that you have to be centered to get a decent base damage boost for an animal form druid. (The 0.5[W] from the power attack ability isn't quite worth it in my estimation).
    yea dance of flower is tier 1.. but dance of flame is tier 4 or 5 can't recall..

    p.s. personally i love to build my toon with shield as well.. especially now that you get elemental reduction with shield feat.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decease View Post
    dancing with flames... wow..you are actually using monk ed?

    btw if you want it so badly you can twist in fighter ed that grant 0.5w when you active power attack..

    p.s. i still find druid ed better suit for druid..
    Actually I don't believe that will work, I'll have to double check but most of the stuff in ld doesn't work if you are considered unarmed.

    The fact that you claimed to have 16w when testing yet weren't using it is another reason why I think you don't really understand the +w system. The monk ed while not having the dps of master's blitz has some nice stuff allowing better stunning fist, some knockdowns, and ein as well as being the only way to get dancing with flames as it is a tier 5. The only bad thing about gmof is that it doesn't have the hp increases of ld or fotw.
    The build is actually 9druid 9monk 2 fighter

  14. #14
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Actually I don't believe that will work, I'll have to double check but most of the stuff in ld doesn't work if you are considered unarmed.

    The fact that you claimed to have 16w when testing yet weren't using it is another reason why I think you don't really understand the +w system. The monk ed while not having the dps of master's blitz has some nice stuff allowing better stunning fist, some knockdowns, and ein as well as being the only way to get dancing with flames as it is a tier 5. The only bad thing about gmof is that it doesn't have the hp increases of ld or fotw.
    The build is actually 9druid 9monk 2 fighter
    test it on 16druid 4 monk

    4level of monk 1.5w
    reinforce fist item 0.5w
    A Dance of Flowers ed twisted 1.5w
    Improved Power Attack ed twisted 0.5w
    past life active feat Disciple of the Fist 1w(which you claim to be 0.5w)
    2.5d handwrap

    total of 7.5w.. (if disciple of fist is really 0.5w then perhaps this is 7d) plus alpha strike which should be 10w. total of 17.5w. anymore question?
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  15. #15
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decease View Post
    test it on 16druid 4 monk

    4level of monk 1.5w
    reinforce fist item 0.5w
    A Dance of Flowers ed twisted 1.5w
    Improved Power Attack ed twisted 0.5w
    past life active feat Disciple of the Fist 1w(which you claim to be 0.5w)
    2.5d handwrap

    total of 7.5w.. (if disciple of fist is really 0.5w then perhaps this is 7d) plus alpha strike which should be 10w. total of 17.5w. anymore question?
    Improved power attack doesn't help -.5
    Which handwraps important question the ones I know of that are that bonus are the ee knuckles, just want to be sure.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life:_Disciple_of_the_Fist
    You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill, deal increased unarmed damage (one step higher than normal on the unarmed combat chart), and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time(20sec). (When you make a successful Reflex save to avoid damage, you suffer no damage instead of half damage.) Note: You must meet normal evasion requirements for this one. No medium or heavy armor, no heavy encumbrance

    It hasn't been updated as the one die step is the u14 way it worked and the way unarmed strike worked, the one die step has been replaced with .5w

    This has some info on it
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Unarmed_Strike

  16. #16
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Improved power attack doesn't help -.5
    Which handwraps important question the ones I know of that are that bonus are the ee knuckles, just want to be sure.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life:_Disciple_of_the_Fist
    You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill, deal increased unarmed damage (one step higher than normal on the unarmed combat chart), and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time(20sec). (When you make a successful Reflex save to avoid damage, you suffer no damage instead of half damage.) Note: You must meet normal evasion requirements for this one. No medium or heavy armor, no heavy encumbrance

    It hasn't been updated as the one die step is the u14 way it worked and the way unarmed strike worked, the one die step has been replaced with .5w

    This has some info on it
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Unarmed_Strike
    either way it wasn't doing anywhere close to 10w.. not even mentioned 16w
    DDO have betray it's lineage, it is no longer any true to DND.. which Is why am gone.. for good..

  17. #17
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    Unhappy Alpha Strike actually use "the weapon you equiped" directly

    (English is not my native language, so there might be wrong grammar&word selection.)

    Most replys about Alpha Strike here is just theory.
    The real problem of Alpha Strike is it uses "actual weapon" in my hand, instead of using my increased dice "barehands".
    If you have Improved Critical: Bludgeoning / do not have Improved Critical:Slashing
    and use Alpha Strikes with different weapons,

    *using Sireth, you'll see critical damage(*2, around 200) on roll 15 dice.
    *using Oath of Droaam, you'll see critical damage (*4, around 500) on roll 19 dice, and not on roll 18.
    *using some Handwraps, very odd result here, I see small number damages around 20~50.

    Alpha Strike looks like a clone of Cleave&Great Cleave, but uses completely different mechanism.
    And I don't think it's WAI.
    Last edited by jwfarangddo; 07-28-2013 at 10:11 AM. Reason: correct misspelling

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