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  1. #1
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    Default Dear Turbine, stop messing with systems and give us quality content.

    So after receiving the email survey "Help make DDO a better game!" I thought of including this but I have my doubts about how many of the written comments are actually read when the simple data mining the multiple choices question results is more "Exec" friendly (they like numbers and percentages because it's quicker and simpler) conclusions.

    Please, for the love of the game, stop messing with systems that don't need it. After the Xpac, please concentrate on QUALITY content. Well thought out, developed and implemented ideas. Concentrate on debugging new content. Listen to the community. You literally have hundreds of good ideas here yet, you still go in completely the opposite direction. A few examples come to mind:

    Secret Doors, Spellcraft and Spell Power added to skills. Stealth. Etc, etc.

    It seems in part like your having some developers that are moving on and have the opportunity to do some things that they haven't been able to (or maybe they are pet peeves of a developer). This can lead to some shortcuts (INT for Spellcraft when only less than 50% of caster classes use INT as a primary stat skills. Should be INT AND CHA Skill) Fantastic, I realize what's done or in the works probably won't be discarded but you yourselves have admitted that the system/code behind the scenes is extremely fragile. Your not going to see Cardiothoracic Surgeons doing open heart surgery on a patient who is 90 yrs old. There's a reason for it. Your much more likely to kill them than help them. So it seem logical that one wouldn't really want to become the "Bull in a china shop". Which I think is an accurate representation of what we have seen since in the last few years.

    Developers tweaking things here and there is obviously required but the PRODUCERS need to keep in mind these system changes aren't going to boost and retain players numbers. (Some, yes, but not a majority) So what will:

    Allow developers the creative freedom to create and build simply great content.

    I believe it's that simple. And this is where I will stop. Any more "wordy" and people will stop reading.

    And the ubiquitous disclaimer: I only speak for myself and the people whom I play and converse with on a regular basis. Your opinion may vary. At least I hope it does.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Content is what you do best.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Wow, you know it's bad when the Chaos Knights think it's out of control.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoglum View Post
    wow, you know it's bad when the chaos knights think it's out of control.
    rofl

  5. #5
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    More content, yes.

    More new and revised systems, no.

    Your game is good. Really, it is. There was a time when players got excited about new systems because we didn't have game sweeping changes constantly. Back in the day, I focused on playing the game and enjoying questing. I still do that, but with every update my main concerns are, how does this break my character and what do I need to do to get my character fixed so I can go back to enjoying the content.

    Do you see the theme there? In both cases, I want to enjoy the content, but with massive sweeping systems changes, I have to worry about how it impacts my characters. When you release 10 new quests, I don't have to worry about how that effects me, except possibly in a metagame sense. I can sit back and enjoy the new quests, classes, races, etc.

    Add to this great game. Changing the rules stresses players out and can lead to player attrition. Yes, it may lead to a more polished game eventually once all the bugs are worked out, but when the bugs from last year's system changes are still here, where is the hope that those bugs as well as all the new ones from this year's systems changes will ever be addressed? Shouldn't you set up a system that allows you to fix more bugs than you create? If you need more time to fix all the bugs caused by new systems changes, perhaps that's a sign that you simply don't have the manpower to be pushing such systems through. Take your time. Do it right and keep your bug list low.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 07-15-2013 at 04:47 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    /signed

    Although, I think new systems aren't all that bad.
    What really bothers me is system changes that aren't what we asked for. Like the EP. Originally, this was just a UI upgrade to make things easier to understand for newer players. It was NOT supposed to be a complete system overhaul, full of nerfs and changes..

    This is the type of thing that bothers me most of all. A UI revamp would have been wonderful and welcome by many, But that's not what we get.

    I think they'd do very well if they'd either do monthly bug patches(Not just fixing whatever new thing they broken.), or if every 3rd update was a massive bug fix. Something like this would at least give off the impression that turbine cares about these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Wow, you know it's bad when the Chaos Knights think it's out of control.
    Lmfao
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  7. #7
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    So iit said it was and update to the launcher and some other fixes....hmmmm

    Release notes have 2 lines.....

    Update to launcher (who cares )

    and

    Some stupid **** about guild rosters that people care less about than the launcher.

  8. #8
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    gotta say i love the changes to stealth, it helps scratch that hitman itch i get now and then. the other examples, not that fussed with really.

    but here's the thing, you can't take programmers away from the code and get them to sit down and make quests. a quest designer isnt a programmer, they are more like a dungeon master that sculpts a 3D world with graphics tools instead of words. the programmers are more like the guys what write the rules books and amendments. 2 totally different skill sets.
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  9. #9
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Quite you!
    Never!
    Now, kindly go stand in a trap and die.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    a quest designer isnt a programmer, they are more like a dungeon master that sculpts a 3D world with graphics tools instead of words. the programmers are more like the guys what write the rules books and amendments. 2 totally different skill sets.
    To be fair, though, the design team is the one that designs new systems, and the programmers are just the ones that translate it into code. The conceptual parts - "We should introduce a new skill that boosts spellpower" or "We need to improve the Heal and Repair skills - lets make them give you Positive/Repair spellpower too" as well as "What should this new quest be?" - all come from the same guys.

    That being said, your content can only be as good as the systems that play in it. Your quests are always limited by what the characters are able to do. So when you improve a system, like Stealth, you're giving yourself another tool in your "quest design possibilities" toolbox.

    Also, you have to keep your quests accessible to everyone, but not overly easy for anyone. That means you need to keep your classes in balance, hence changes like the EP are necessary to boost underappreciated/flavor builds, rein in a little of the OP possibilities of some builds, and keep the game from gravitating too much towards a small handful of playstyles. When your classes are all in dynamic balance (ie not just all reduced to variations of the same theme), that again lets you develop more dynamic and interesting content that isn't just tank-and-spank/bags-of-HP or rock-paper-scissors challenges.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    but here's the thing, you can't take programmers away from the code and get them to sit down and make quests. a quest designer isnt a programmer, they are more like a dungeon master that sculpts a 3D world with graphics tools instead of words. the programmers are more like the guys what write the rules books and amendments. 2 totally different skill sets.
    True. I use term "developer" for anyone who creates something. Writing code is creating. Quest designing is creating. The end result is content.

    Producers are different. And most of my post was more of a message to the producers to change focus as I feel they have started to stray away.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    That being said, your content can only be as good as the systems that play in it. Your quests are always limited by what the characters are able to do. So when you improve a system, like Stealth, you're giving yourself another tool in your "quest design possibilities" toolbox.
    I agree, but to me this is more relevant to games with a more stable behind the scenes.. But we have to remember the system internals of this game are 7 yrs old. And while there have been many improvements in that time, you can only go so far before it just breaks. And they have admitted on multiple occasions that it is extremely fragile. I am a firm believer of if it works, leave it be...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Never!
    Now, kindly go stand in a trap and die.
    I knew I should have let you die the other day in TBF. They say boredom is a killer.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 07-15-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  12. #12
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    Great content and the rewards that go with it is what will bring people back to this game.

    Mediocre content and junk loot isn't going to encourage players to log back into DDO.

    I think the producers/designers need to grasp onto the concept that we need end game. This end game can't just be a handful of quests, we need 5 or 6 relevant end game raids, with relevant rewards and relevant difficulties.
    At the moment the game is pretty stagnant and is predominantly populated by people playing toons through the heroic levels, this is fine for those that enjoy that but what is there for those that want real end game?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    Great content and the rewards that go with it is what will bring people back to this game.

    Mediocre content and junk loot isn't going to encourage players to log back into DDO.

    I think the producers/designers need to grasp onto the concept that we need end game. This end game can't just be a handful of quests, we need 5 or 6 relevant end game raids, with relevant rewards and relevant difficulties.
    At the moment the game is pretty stagnant and is predominantly populated by people playing toons through the heroic levels, this is fine for those that enjoy that but what is there for those that want real end game?
    Loot is like crack....you feel good for a while, but next time you always need a bigger high. Loot serves its purpose, but you're always going to want even better loot once you get it. At some point, you run out of ways to make loot better without making it ridiculous...or, you raise the level cap, and then everyone complains that you just made all their epic lootz obsolete.

    Likewise, endgame!=raiding and raiding!=endgame, I'm always trying to fight that fallacy. A good endgame construction should be about entertaining challenges in MANY forms - raiding is one facet of that, but it should also equally include crafting, soloing, exploring, questing, repeatable content (eg Challenges), slow incremental character development (Fate Points, Past Lives), etc. etc. They all help to enrich one another to make a better, longer-lasting endgame experience.

    Before they just tag on another 5 raids at L28, I'd love to see them get creative, do something they've never done before. For example, random generated, open-ended tunnels in the Underdark - something like Torchlight gameplay - where you can just continue to forge ahead through premade "tilesets", strung together randomly, with random monsters/chests/session slayer deeds that reset every instance/scripted encounters for minor XP (a la Explorer zones), where the CL of monsters/chests gets higher and higher as you go "deeper" into the Underdark.
    Last edited by droid327; 07-15-2013 at 10:07 PM.

  14. #14
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Also, you have to keep your quests accessible to everyone, but not overly easy for anyone. That means you need to keep your classes in balance, hence changes like the EP are necessary to boost underappreciated/flavor builds, rein in a little of the OP possibilities of some builds, and keep the game from gravitating too much towards a small handful of playstyles. When your classes are all in dynamic balance (ie not just all reduced to variations of the same theme), that again lets you develop more dynamic and interesting content that isn't just tank-and-spank/bags-of-HP or rock-paper-scissors challenges.
    lmao

    Seriously the ep nerfs a lot of builds, gives flavor builds 10-20% more umph even though they might have been down 60% or more, and introduces some builds that are so OP that everyone that complains about juggernauts will have aneurisms.

  15. #15
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    I agree and disagree with the OP. Personally, I'm looking forward to the re-vamped stealth and mob AI. The more realistic the play, the more engaging and immersive it'll be.

    The enhancement pass is adding things that make DDO closer to D&D. Frankly, between DDO and D&D, I prefer D&D more.

    That all being said, this game will live and die based on content. Like someone said, loot is a junkies quick fix, but in the end if you are doing nothing but running the same 15 quests over and over again, you'll get bored and leave. Diversity keeps the player playing.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Loot is like crack....you feel good for a while, but next time you always need a bigger high. Loot serves its purpose, but you're always going to want even better loot once you get it. At some point, you run out of ways to make loot better without making it ridiculous...or, you raise the level cap, and then everyone complains that you just made all their epic lootz obsolete.

    Likewise, endgame!=raiding and raiding!=endgame, I'm always trying to fight that fallacy. A good endgame construction should be about entertaining challenges in MANY forms - raiding is one facet of that, but it should also equally include crafting, soloing, exploring, questing, repeatable content (eg Challenges), slow incremental character development (Fate Points, Past Lives), etc. etc. They all help to enrich one another to make a better, longer-lasting endgame experience.

    Before they just tag on another 5 raids at L28, I'd love to see them get creative, do something they've never done before. For example, random generated, open-ended tunnels in the Underdark - something like Torchlight gameplay - where you can just continue to forge ahead through premade "tilesets", strung together randomly, with random monsters/chests/session slayer deeds that reset every instance/scripted encounters for minor XP (a la Explorer zones), where the CL of monsters/chests gets higher and higher as you go "deeper" into the Underdark.
    Fully agree with your last paragraph, that is what I would like to see, something randomised within a set of parameters that gets more difficult the further you advance.

    I don't agree with the premise though that end game doesn't need raids and loot.... essentially the two go hand in hand and sure Loots not all that, but I can remember a time when server populations were an awful lot healthier and there was quite significant end game raiding going on.... people have left for games like NWO, games like that are flash in the pan... we need raiding to once again become a relevant part of DDO end game to entice people back.

    I would absolutely love for there to be other end game options too, as it stands now we can't sit here and say we have an end game that is conducive to retaining players.
    So yeah it's definately not all about raiding but a few more high level raids with relevant rewards could go along way to keeping current player numbers and enticing former players back.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    lmao

    Seriously the ep nerfs a lot of builds, gives flavor builds 10-20% more umph even though they might have been down 60% or more, and introduces some builds that are so OP that everyone that complains about juggernauts will have aneurisms.
    Char and I never agree on anything it seems, but on this one we do... your eyes may glaze over from the DooOOooMM but that only serves to keep you from seeing what's coming. I might add that new effective builds (not the borken builds but merely effective ones (yes that's BORKEN, borked and broken X6 crits from an eSoS while centered in Monk mountain stance is not merely broken, it is borken)) will be very similar due to all the new spending restrictions that effectively turn into "paths of least resistance" that most builds will NEED TO TAKE to afford "the good stuff" in other words... lots of pigeon holing and sameness between one kind of Paladin and another. In the pass Paladin A has some of the best Defender stuff and the Best KotC stuff, and very similar "least junky" prerequisites due to AP spent requirements While Paladin B has the best Defender stuff and the Best KotC stuff and the same "prerequisits that are the least junky) for the same reason. So um... nearly identical... Whereas on Live Paladin A is a DOS with literally any number of core class enhancements that might be (and probably are) different from any other DOS. (full smiting line versus having lots of extra LOH versus having high Divine Might) And Pali B is a HotD with Heal amp out the wazoo and very little in common with Pali A from playstyle or specs... Post pass they will both have very similar enhancements...
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 07-16-2013 at 08:48 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    that's BORKEN, borked and broken X6 crits from an eSoS while centered in Monk mountain stance is not merely broken, it is broken
    Ok, looks like I know how I'll be using my LR+20 on my SoS wielding Fighter

    lots of pigeon holing and sameness between one kind of Paladin and another. In the pass Paladin A has some of the best Defender stuff and the Best KotC stuff, and very similar "least junky" prerequisites due to AP spent requirements While Paladin B has the best Defender stuff and the Best KotC stuff and the same "prerequisits that are the least junky) for the same reason. So um... nearly identical... Whereas on Live Paladin A is a DOS with literally any number of core class enhancements that might be (and probably are) different from any other DOS. (full smiting line versus having lots of extra LOH versus having high Divine Might) And Pali B is a HotD with Heal amp out the wazoo and very little in common with Pali A from playstyle or specs... Post pass they will both have very similar enhancements...
    Yeah, that's a worrying direction.

  19. #19
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    I think everyone understands that the game is only as good as the systems....problem is the last good introduction of content we received was lat year and we paid for it. Even the expansion is pretty miserable as far as content and we have no new end game raid.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood View Post
    I love how people with no experience try to tell others how to do things.
    If your referring to his join date then sorry buddy that's not accurate anymore. So you can just scrub that sense of entitlement you get from being a founder no one cares anyway.

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