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  1. #21
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Stunning Fist will remain unarmed-only, however other Monk attacks will be become usable with weapons.
    This includes Quivering Palm and Touch of Death.

    Quivering Palm is getting an additional buff: In the future, it will start benefiting from DC increases to the Sunder feat from items, enhancements, and epic destinies.

    Feather... Feather.... you complete me.

    That's what I'm talking about.

  2. #22
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    Awesome!

  3. #23
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    Problem still being that Henshin Mystic tree sucks quite a lot, and stunning blow doesn't have enough DC (and too long cooldown) on Epic Elite (yes, everything below EE is piece of cake anyway that you can have both your hands and feet bound, no eyes or ears and still smack all the mobs with your one tooth). Have to try the fixed incinerating wave if its worth anything, but so far, the only thing worth something in that tree is the 1xcrit mod+1xcrit range and Balance in Dawn. Staff training is ok, but Quick Strike.. BAH, it has 20second cooldown, when rogue one has 16second (or had in last update, have to check this one). Also I am forced to splash rogue to get 15% more attack speed...

    OR I would just throw the qstaves to garbage and go with wraps which offers no variety...

    Edit: not enough DC IF you want other monk stuff when you need to put points in WIS as well.

  4. #24
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Stunning Fist will remain unarmed-only, however other Monk attacks will be become usable with weapons.
    This includes Quivering Palm and Touch of Death.

    Quivering Palm is getting an additional buff: In the future, it will start benefiting from DC increases to the Sunder feat from items, enhancements, and epic destinies.
    Will Zen archery users be getting any love with this?

    Imbuing arrows with ki strikes? Quivering arrows? Arrows with negative Ki energy?

    Any plans to allow ranged monks to generate ki on arrow hit or for zen archery to also grant +1 ki regen with a bow equipped?

  5. #25
    Community Member Leonhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    Will Zen archery users be getting any love with this?

    Imbuing arrows with ki strikes? Quivering arrows? Arrows with negative Ki energy?

    Any plans to allow ranged monks to generate ki on arrow hit or for zen archery to also grant +1 ki regen with a bow equipped?
    This doesn't seem probable, but if ability-infused arrows is what you want, you might want to try ranger's new enhancements.
    There are two types of people: those who need closure.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Stunning Fist will remain unarmed-only, however other Monk attacks will be become usable with weapons.
    This includes Quivering Palm and Touch of Death.

    Quivering Palm is getting an additional buff: In the future, it will start benefiting from DC increases to the Sunder feat from items, enhancements, and epic destinies.
    This is very good news, seems like it will finally open up possibilities for armed monk(splashes). Very cool!
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    One way or another, currently they definitely have two trees focused on using weapons that no sane monk would ever use due to the extreme trade offs.

    I like their flavor but their practicality is very low.
    I actually think a henshin palemaster will be an awesome fun build. Cant see the NS SS build working well though.

  8. #28
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Stunning Fist will remain unarmed-only, however other Monk attacks will be become usable with weapons.
    This includes Quivering Palm and Touch of Death.

    Quivering Palm is getting an additional buff: In the future, it will start benefiting from DC increases to the Sunder feat from items, enhancements, and epic destinies.
    I think I even advocated to increase the QP DC a while back; but please be very careful with the DC.

    Here's my back of the napkin math for this update:

    Max Assassinate DC is ~65; going up to 68 if you gimp yourself with silly int twists and GA:Int. With 'Measure', you're looking at 70 upto 73 (on a gimp). Conceivably, you could even use a shatter item for -1 and Improved Sunder for -3 to reach 74 to 77, though that's unlikely since you can't be the one to do it as you're about to use assassinate.

    Max Quivering Palm:
    Q-Palm
    Base 10 + Monk/2 10 + WIS 29 + Fighter PLs 3 + Epic Tactics 2 + GMOF Capstone 1 + Shatter(10) 10 + H-Elf Fighter Enhancement 2 + Leg Tactics Twist 6 + Exc Combat Item 5 = 78

    That's just walking up to a mob, no prep, and punching its face for an insta-kill.

    With Shatter items' -1 fort save, and conceivably Improved Sunder for another -3, that's 82DC, which is a very realistic scenario since you may as well do an IS before you QP them.

    An 82DC basically free insta-kill seems unbalanced. Like EiN unbalanced in any version to-date unbalanced.

    I'll even do the Wis breakdown to show I'm not high on sauce:

    Base 18 + 8 Level-Ups + 11 Item + 1 Exceptional + 3 Insightful + 2 Completionist + 5 Tome + 2 Race Enh(H-Elf) + Shintao 1 + Henshin 2 + Henshin Cap 2 + Water GM 4 + Ship Buff 2 + Yugo Pot 2 + Destiny 5 = 68

    There's obviously room for more in that Destiny could give 6, and you could twist in up to 2 more Wis points as well (since 1 slot is Legendary Tactics). Oh and I forgot Litany, but I'm not convinced that would be realistic on this monk, unlike the rest of the choices above.



    Sidenote, highest (non-very-temporarily-boosted Insta-kill DC) I can see on a similarly perfectly equipped Wizard is 68DC with the new gloves as an illusion specialist (in augmented Lich form) with PK.

    Things are getting wacky re:insta-killer DCs, and I'm unsure that more bonuses for monks is the way to solve it unless there is a corresponding +~15 for arcanes and ~10 for rogues.


    EDIT: So the Release Notes are up and this is happening. The above makes me concerned.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 08-09-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Default New feat:

    Improved kicking [active/pasive]
    requirements: monk lvl6, wisdom, strenght 16, dex 17

    You have perfected use of feets as lethal weapon.
    Activate this feat to perform an unarmed attack with your foot while weilding weapons, dealing damage as if you had empty weapon slots.
    Also, you may now use feet to perform special unarmet attacks when weilding weapons. Their Ki cost is doubled, and you don't deal extra weapon damage (damage, critical, to hit bonus etc, are rolled as if your character had empty weapon slots).

    Here, problem fixed.
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  10. #30
    Community Member MrWindupBird's Avatar
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    Making Touch of Death work with weapons makes sense to me. Quivering palm with weapons? The mind boggles, and not just semantically.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I think I even advocated to increase the QP DC a while back; but please be very careful with the DC.

    Here's my back of the napkin math for this update:

    Max Assassinate DC is ~65; going up to 68 if you gimp yourself with silly int twists and GA:Int. With 'Measure', you're looking at 70 upto 73 (on a gimp). Conceivably, you could even use a shatter item for -1 and Improved Sunder for -3 to reach 74 to 77, though that's unlikely since you can't be the one to do it as you're about to use assassinate.

    Max Quivering Palm:
    Q-Palm
    Base 10 + Monk/2 10 + WIS 29 + Fighter PLs 3 + Epic Tactics 2 + GMOF Capstone 1 + Shatter(10) 10 + H-Elf Fighter Enhancement 2 + Leg Tactics Twist 6 + Exc Combat Item 5 = 78

    That's just walking up to a mob, no prep, and punching its face for an insta-kill.

    With Shatter items' -1 fort save, and conceivably Improved Sunder for another -3, that's 82DC, which is a very realistic scenario since you may as well do an IS before you QP them.

    An 82DC basically free insta-kill seems unbalanced. Like EiN unbalanced in any version to-date unbalanced.

    I'll even do the Wis breakdown to show I'm not high on sauce:

    Base 18 + 8 Level-Ups + 11 Item + 1 Exceptional + 3 Insightful + 2 Completionist + 5 Tome + 2 Race Enh(H-Elf) + Shintao 1 + Henshin 2 + Henshin Cap 2 + Water GM 4 + Ship Buff 2 + Yugo Pot 2 + Destiny 5 = 68

    There's obviously room for more in that Destiny could give 6, and you could twist in up to 2 more Wis points as well (since 1 slot is Legendary Tactics). Oh and I forgot Litany, but I'm not convinced that would be realistic on this monk, unlike the rest of the choices above.



    Sidenote, highest (non-very-temporarily-boosted Insta-kill DC) I can see on a similarly perfectly equipped Wizard is 68DC with the new gloves as an illusion specialist (in augmented Lich form) with PK.

    Things are getting wacky re:insta-killer DCs, and I'm unsure that more bonuses for monks is the way to solve it unless there is a corresponding +~15 for arcanes and ~10 for rogues.


    EDIT: So the Release Notes are up and this is happening. The above makes me concerned.

    The only thing is, quivering palm requires level 15 monk.

    For the most parts, monks are becoming the ultimate splash class but lose out on a lot of power being deep monk.

    So, the new quivering palm DC is nice but you are missing out on a lot of very powerful potential splash builds to get it. It is quite the trade off so it is pretty important that they make it a significant trade off.
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  12. #32
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    The only thing is, quivering palm requires level 15 monk.

    For the most parts, monks are becoming the ultimate splash class but lose out on a lot of power being deep monk.

    So, the new quivering palm DC is nice but you are missing out on a lot of very powerful potential splash builds to get it. It is quite the trade off so it is pretty important that they make it a significant trade off.
    Horse-hockey.

    None of the other abilities compares to a mid-70s DC melee insta-kill with a 6 second cooldown.

    Look, I intend on abusing the heck out of this as much as anyone but don't pretend to rationalize that this isn't insane.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Horse-hockey.

    None of the other abilities compares to a mid-70s DC melee insta-kill with a 6 second cooldown.

    Look, I intend on abusing the heck out of this as much as anyone but don't pretend to rationalize that this isn't insane.
    Of course its very powerful, I am not saying it isnt. However what I am saying is that in exchange for NOT taking 15 levels of monk I could build a character that is superior in every other way - quivering palm is the only thing this build really brings overwhelmingly to the table.

    Monks offer so much of their strength front loaded that 2-6 level splashes of monks are extremely popular and deep monk builds have fallen by the wayside.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    Of course its very powerful, I am not saying it isnt. However what I am saying is that in exchange for NOT taking 15 levels of monk I could build a character that is superior in every other way - quivering palm is the only thing this build really brings overwhelmingly to the table.

    Monks offer so much of their strength front loaded that 2-6 level splashes of monks are extremely popular and deep monk builds have fallen by the wayside.
    Rogue 20 Int-based assassin also gives up a lot, for the trade-off of an insta-kill.

    Wizard 20 Int-based insta-killer (necro or illusion) also gives up a lot, for the trade-off of insta-kills.

    Both of those, making a similar trade to a Wis Monk, have grossly inferior abilities at that specialty.

    Agreed the pure Wis monk build might give up a little much, but you can still get an insane Quivering Palm on a 15 Monk / 5 Fighter or 15 Monk / 1 Fighter / 4 something.

    My figures above are also wrong (in that I have 8 Level-Ups not 7 because I apparently can't divide by 4, but also in that +12 (+14 even?) shatter items are available, and that through Kensai Fighter tactics you can get +6 DC instead of just the +2 DC from H-Elf Fighter Dilettante), resulting in a mild net gain to DC (lose capstone 1DC + another 3DC from the final 3 monk levels) on a 15 Monk / 5 Fighter compared with what I posted above... it's just stupid.

    Point being:
    You don't need to go anywhere near full-wisdom to get something that smells like a no-fail QP. You also don't need to go past 15 Monk.


    Other point being:
    -I hope that either the DCs of specialized insta-killers are brought up to speed via a massive DC increase.

    -Or, alternatively, nerf the pants off Quivering Palm sooner (pre-U19 if possible?) rather than later since people will be mad if they waste the LR+20 on making a 15 Monk / something. As ZZpx points out, 15 Monk was until this change, very questionable relative to a 2/3/6 Monk splash.
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  15. #35
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Tired of folks look at other people's plates and complaining they got a larger steak. Don't poo poo the buff. QP's DC has been borked for ages. Celebrate the buff and fight for YOUR buff.

    "Envy is the religion of the mediocre"

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Tired of folks look at other people's plates and complaining they got a larger steak. Don't poo poo the buff. QP's DC has been borked for ages. Celebrate the buff and fight for YOUR buff.

    "Envy is the religion of the mediocre"
    Some of us play monks but we see an over-powered feature as being bad for the game.

    Someday you might evolve to this level. Drink your milk and take your vitamins.

  17. #37
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    Tired of folks look at other people's plates and complaining they got a larger steak. Don't poo poo the buff. QP's DC has been borked for ages. Celebrate the buff and fight for YOUR buff.

    "Envy is the religion of the mediocre"
    QP needed a buff: true.

    Since it was in need of a buff, we shouldn't point out that the obviously excessive buff was excessive: insane non-logic.



    If you think Monks are underpowered in the enhancement pass and need this extent of Quivering Palm DC boost - rather than just wild and inaccurate speculations on the motivations of people writing things in this thread - I'm genuinely interested in hearing those arguments.
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    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  18. #38
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    If you think Monks are underpowered in the enhancement pass and need this extent of Quivering Palm DC boost - rather than just wild and inaccurate speculations on the motivations of people writing things in this thread - I'm genuinely interested in hearing those arguments.
    As of last weekend open beta (who knows what'll make it to live) monks (and splashes) are:

    - The best tanks
    - The best archers (really . . . this one still leaves me scratching my head)
    - The best DPS
    - The most survivable DPS
    - The Best insta-killers.

    Basically if you don't pwn stuff on your monk you're a terrible player.

  19. #39
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    As of last weekend open beta (who knows what'll make it to live) monks (and splashes) are:

    - The best tanks
    - The best archers (really . . . this one still leaves me scratching my head)
    - The best DPS
    - The most survivable DPS
    - The Best insta-killers.

    Basically if you don't pwn stuff on your monk you're a terrible player.
    best DPS or most survivable DPS? you are obviously not talking about pure monks when it comes to archers. So it comes back to the pure or 15 monk for QP.

    Maybe your server is different, but EE monks started deep splashing in droves on our server, why would that be? I'm sorry but for EE there are not very many monks if at all tanking. If you are talking EH, then any build with a stick or sword of +5 crapitude is gonna get through it.

    Milk. Vitamins. Now.

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