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  1. #1
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    Default DPS rogue suggestions?

    Looking for build advice on a pure rogue life, mostly concerned with the journey from 1 to 25 and not end game (since I don't last long at 25 anyway).

    Don't have any experience with being a rogue, and that's part of the goal here. I want a high-DPS fun build. I found this build which looks interesting.. is it really worth a feat to get khopesh proficiency? I've kinda always wanted to play with them.

    This will be a TR life on a multi-TR but no terribly relevant past lives. I want to be able to do good damage in melee and ranged. I may have a lit2 longbow soon, but don't have any GS one-handers.

    Thanks for any suggestions or links to builds.

  2. #2
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Rogues in general are high dps, at least when they are dual wielders.

    If you just want dps, go with a pure str based human. Khopesh is fine, a Greensteel Min2 is going to be a good weapon for plenty of lives.

    A good alternative to the STR rogue is the INT rogue. Assassinate is a wonderfully fun ability. Granted you don't get to use it until lvl 12, but hey that's 14 levels you get to use it vs the 12 that you don't.

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    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    As an alternative to the khopesh, you could use that feat to take Improved Critical:Piercing, and dual-wield rapiers.

    Yeah, I know, their base damage isn't as high as a khopesh. But they crit on an 18-20.

    Imp. Crit doubles that so now they crit on a 15-20. Moar crits=moar damage!

    And if you can get your hands on a Blood Stone (not the cheap red gem, the good one from Menechtauran) you'll be scoring crits all over the place.
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  4. #4
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Pure DPS rogues are somewhat easy to build. You have 5 mandatory feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Critical and Precision), one VERY useful feat (Toughness, helps a lot on a d6 class), and one/two feats for your delight.

    If you are going to Melee DPS, Assassin tree is the best choice. With capstone and enhancements you get extra 7d6+12 sneak damage, and Assassinate is awesome.

    Skill-wise, never forget to max out the trap skills (Disable, Search, Open Lock, Spot). If you are going to solo, making use of stealth is good, so maximing Bluff (for bluff pulls), Hide and Move Silently are also good. UMD is the best skill in the game, so maximize this one too. This will leave you with (INT modifier) skills to choose what you want to maximize between Jump, Tumble, Balance, Diplomacy and Haggle.

    Stat-wise, you need DEX 17 by level 9 to qualify for Improved TWF (this means you can use a +2 tome for it), and keeping a Starting CON of 14 might help with your d6 hitpoints. Most of your damage will come from sneak damage, thus going dex-based, while not optimal DPS-wise, is not terrible. If you go this route, remember to get Weapon Finesse ASAP. U19 in August will bring to you means to get DEX to damage on finesse weapons. Even if you are going to the STR rogue route, don't start with an INT of less than 12. Maximizing INT is necessary to assassinate harder targets on Elite and Epic Elites, but with a starting 14 and INT gear you can make your way through heroic and non-elite epics. CHA and WIS are dump stats.
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  5. #5
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    As an alternative to the khopesh, you could use that feat to take Improved Critical:Piercing, and dual-wield rapiers.

    Yeah, I know, their base damage isn't as high as a khopesh. But they crit on an 18-20.

    Imp. Crit doubles that so now they crit on a 15-20. Moar crits=moar damage!

    And if you can get your hands on a Blood Stone (not the cheap red gem, the good one from Menechtauran) you'll be scoring crits all over the place.
    I always thought the appeal of the khopesh was the multiplier x3 not the base damage 1d8? so khopesh 19-20 crits for three times the damage and rapier 18-20 crtis for double. with improved crit khopesh 17-20 x3 rapier 15-20 x2. So rapier more crits khopesh bigger crits?

    Also is the blinding greensteel forgot what it is a good weapon still for rogues? blinded mobs, moar sneak attack + moar damage?

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    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Looking for build advice on a pure rogue life, mostly concerned with the journey from 1 to 25 and not end game (since I don't last long at 25 anyway).

    Don't have any experience with being a rogue, and that's part of the goal here. I want a high-DPS fun build. I found this build which looks interesting.. is it really worth a feat to get khopesh proficiency? I've kinda always wanted to play with them.

    This will be a TR life on a multi-TR but no terribly relevant past lives. I want to be able to do good damage in melee and ranged. I may have a lit2 longbow soon, but don't have any GS one-handers.

    Thanks for any suggestions or links to builds.
    Whatever build you end up going with, max your Bluff skill and learn to use Bluff. It makes the target vulnerable to sneak attack and assassinate. It introduces a delay in attacking like a boost but you can break the delay with a clicky attack like trip or sunder: learn how and when to bluff and be a truly awesome killing machine.

    As for weapon, at higher levels you can essentially wield the club of holy flame (-1 club) and still be totally awesome, as most of your damage is sneak attack. ((minor exaggeration alert))

    Your weaknesses will be soloing and non-critable foes. Good disruptors and smiters will be very very useful to you (more so than in normal DPS lives).

    That's my take.

    @NaturalHazard - it's Radiance II, and yes: blind enemies are vulnerable to sneak attack damage.
    Last edited by Hutoth; 07-15-2013 at 06:37 AM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I always thought the appeal of the khopesh was the multiplier x3 not the base damage 1d8? so khopesh 19-20 crits for three times the damage and rapier 18-20 crtis for double. with improved crit khopesh 17-20 x3 rapier 15-20 x2. So rapier more crits khopesh bigger crits?

    Also is the blinding greensteel forgot what it is a good weapon still for rogues? blinded mobs, moar sneak attack + moar damage?
    @Kopesh vs Rapeir.
    You are right, and the biggerness of the Kopesh-crits overcompensates the more-but-weaker crits from a Rapier. This is why a Khopesh (all else being equal) is a better DPS-weapon than a Rapier and worthy of spending a feat on its proficiency.


    BUT - for Rogues a Radience Rapier (with IC:Pierce of course) is best. Because blinding a monster is both an awesome defensive and offenisve effect. Monster swings around blindly, get 50% miss-chance for being blind, and you get your sweet, sweet extra D6 regardless of if you have aggro.
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  8. #8
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    Thanks for all the great responses! Plenty to think on here. Since I won't have tons of feats maybe it does make sense to start with the rapier and then decide later if I want to go with khopesh.

    My only thing is that I'll be starting from scratch gear-wise. I have lots of two-handers kicking around from past lives but no one-handers.

    Not sure it really makes sense to make a GS rapier as I don't know if I'd use it for any other class as I go for completionist.

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    Just realized the Radiance you are talking about is in fact a GS effect.

    If I make this, will I be likely to use it with any other class? Doesn't seem likely, and that means it will mostly sit in my bank. I might still do it but I don't farm Shroud so my ingredients are limited.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Stat-wise, you need DEX 17 by level 9 to qualify for Improved TWF (this means you can use a +2 tome for it), and keeping a Starting CON of 14 might help with your d6 hitpoints. Most of your damage will come from sneak damage, thus going dex-based, while not optimal DPS-wise, is not terrible. If you go this route, remember to get Weapon Finesse ASAP. U19 in August will bring to you means to get DEX to damage on finesse weapons. Even if you are going to the STR rogue route, don't start with an INT of less than 12. Maximizing INT is necessary to assassinate harder targets on Elite and Epic Elites, but with a starting 14 and INT gear you can make your way through heroic and non-elite epics. CHA and WIS are dump stats.
    I'm going to disagree on the Dex-based - with the game as-is, ignore weapon finesse, and just use the named Dex-for-damage weapons. Level 4 you can get Sky Pirate's Dagger or Tiefling Assassin's Blade; level 10 you can get Flint (note the improved 2[W] damage, and W=1d6 on this dagger), level 16 you can use Envenomed Blade (but Flint is more DPS). After the enhancement pass, we can re-evaluate depending on how the final enhancements look, but right now Weapon Finesse is in general a bad idea. If you go dex-based, commit to it with the gear. Otherwise, stay Str-based. Having done dex-based both ways, it will save you a lot of frustration if you avoid the Weapon Finesse path.

  11. #11
    Community Member rangerluna375's Avatar
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    Rogues are very (extremely) feat starved.

    If you are not going to be running EE with it, I wouldn't worry too much about specifics, especially if you are going to TR again after 25.

    You will do insane damage even if you wield daggers. lol, simply because of sneak attack damage.

    Start with: (depending on tomes available)
    14 Con (minimum) HPs can be a hurdle as you level
    8-9 Int (minimum) and you should get all the traps with +15 gear (been a while since I leveled up a rogue)
    16-18 Str (minimum) Put as many as you can here and dump what is left into Dex.

    If you have the points, it don't hurt to put a couple or so into Cha to help with UMD.

    Jack up your skill points into the trap skills and UMD for healing and rez scrolls.

    I have only ever played Str based rogues, so I can't comment on what is ultimately the better route to go.
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  12. #12
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    If you do go Rapier a very under-appreciated weapon is the House C Rapier of Air at level 16 with the Sirocco effect that has the blindness proc similar to what you get for a Radiance II effect off of Greensteel. It's a whole lot cheaper to make too since it's not going to cost you Large Devil Scales to craft. You can take it to tier 3 then apply a Masterful Craftsmanship shard to make this a ML14 weapon too.

    If you go Khopesh take a look at the Water weapon in House C too as it's not a bad DPS weapon either with some decent CC abilitiy as a Paralyzer.

    HTH, and good luck with your build.
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    Can you clarify why you recommend precision? I'm guessing for the 25% fort reduction. Since precision and power attack are exclusive stances, it's one or the other. On a str based rogue, will precision net more overall dps?

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Pure DPS rogues are somewhat easy to build. You have 5 mandatory feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Critical and Precision), one VERY useful feat (Toughness, helps a lot on a d6 class), and one/two feats for your delight.

    If you are going to Melee DPS, Assassin tree is the best choice. With capstone and enhancements you get extra 7d6+12 sneak damage, and Assassinate is awesome.

    Skill-wise, never forget to max out the trap skills (Disable, Search, Open Lock, Spot). If you are going to solo, making use of stealth is good, so maximing Bluff (for bluff pulls), Hide and Move Silently are also good. UMD is the best skill in the game, so maximize this one too. This will leave you with (INT modifier) skills to choose what you want to maximize between Jump, Tumble, Balance, Diplomacy and Haggle.

    Stat-wise, you need DEX 17 by level 9 to qualify for Improved TWF (this means you can use a +2 tome for it), and keeping a Starting CON of 14 might help with your d6 hitpoints. Most of your damage will come from sneak damage, thus going dex-based, while not optimal DPS-wise, is not terrible. If you go this route, remember to get Weapon Finesse ASAP. U19 in August will bring to you means to get DEX to damage on finesse weapons. Even if you are going to the STR rogue route, don't start with an INT of less than 12. Maximizing INT is necessary to assassinate harder targets on Elite and Epic Elites, but with a starting 14 and INT gear you can make your way through heroic and non-elite epics. CHA and WIS are dump stats.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catteras View Post
    Can you clarify why you recommend precision? I'm guessing for the 25% fort reduction. Since precision and power attack are exclusive stances, it's one or the other. On a str based rogue, will precision net more overall dps?
    +5% to hit and 25% fortification bypass, on a rogue, is usually better than +5 plain damage for -5 to-hit. While it is true that after MotU to-hit is less valuable than before, even a STR rogue have less to-hit than your average melee (fighter, barb, monk, pally, ranger). If you start missing on a 4 (20% miss), you are losing more DPS using PA than Precision.

    IMO.
    Last edited by nibel; 07-15-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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    Thanks for the further comments. I have been eyeing the House C khopeshes for a while as I love paralyzing (especially for soloing) and items that have both paralyze and actual damage effects are particularly useful. Unfortunately nobody runs those challenges any more and they aren't nearly as soloable as the ES ones, but I do have some bits and pieces saved up from when they were more popular.

    One difference between sirocco and the Radiance II GS is that the latter has no save, which I'd imagine is a big deal especially at higher levels.

  16. #16
    Community Member nikos1313's Avatar
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    1st rule of DPS should be : Stay Alive!!
    so by any means, do not bork your constitution or other ways to gain HPs!
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  17. #17
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    Rogue's are very gear dependent, so being a max DPS rogue is highly dependent on your use of things like bluff, sneak attack, and having some good weapons. The first thing I'd so is find a few pieces of useful gear to support you in the low levels.

    I have a STR/INT halfling rogue who can assassinate anything in EH or below, but still puts out heavy DPS when necessary in FoTW. That comes greatly from swinging two Epic Midnight Greetings where a disentigrate always dual-procs for a combined 700-900dmg. I went Rapier IC: Pierce up until I finished my first eMG, then took IC: Slash.

    Low levels are the toughest for DPS if you go pierce simply from the quantity of undead that have pierce DR, and inability to SA them. This becomes less of a problem in the higher levels where the undead aren't as numerous and your gear gets better. Going rapiers does have a pro in that you can swing two Turbulent Epees (assuming you can farm them, which isn't hard), which DR break all alignment and metalline types. Also, a big second on the Elemental Rapier of Air. Very useful weapon for CC on Epic mobs because of the blindness and much quicker to farm two of them out than comparable GS and tier 3 version gives you a colorless and red slot in each. Slicing winds has a decent proc rate and very few mobs have DR to Slash.

    If you're not going to stay a rogue for long, it might make more sense to go Kopesh, but I've seen very few long time rogues use Khopeshes. A max DPS rogue kills mobs with one hit... the shiv in the back.

  18. #18
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    I suggest you TR into a wizard / sorc.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    +5% to hit and 25% fortification bypass, on a rogue, is usually better than +5 plain damage for -5 to-hit. While it is true that after MotU to-hit is less valuable than before, even a STR rogue have less to-hit than your average melee (fighter, barb, monk, pally, ranger). If you start missing on a 4 (20% miss), you are losing more DPS using PA than Precision.

    IMO.
    Actually the to-hit doesn't matter much at all - you get sneak attack damage even on grazing hits (last I checked, it's possible they changed that but I doubt it). The fortification bypass is king - there are mobs with fort but not sneak attack immunity, such as Wisps, and the more fort bypass you have, the better. 25% from precision, 10% from opportunist is a good start; eventually you will get armor-piercing gear as well.

  20. #20
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Thanks for all the great responses! Plenty to think on here. Since I won't have tons of feats maybe it does make sense to start with the rapier and then decide later if I want to go with khopesh.

    My only thing is that I'll be starting from scratch gear-wise. I have lots of two-handers kicking around from past lives but no one-handers.

    Not sure it really makes sense to make a GS rapier as I don't know if I'd use it for any other class as I go for completionist.
    Dont forget the sexy rapier from citw... my khopesh using toon now runs with a battle axe (axe of adaxus for headsman chop) and a blizard citw rapier in the off hand a lot of the time now.

    But for leveling I guess a greensteel radII rapier is the way to go. Someone mentioned a minII rapier? personally i wouldnt bother with minII so much more cheaper and more effective ways via crafting to make better dr beaters.

    Um also don't forget the lords of dust shortsword, normal version and epic version if you can make it. Also the treason might be nice especially if its upgraded and the black dragon armour.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-15-2013 at 10:11 PM.

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