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  1. #121
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    See . . . I don't believe anything learned at lower levels really matters because the game changes so much after level 10 it's not funny. Not even gonna start on how much it changes after level 20 on Elite.
    This supports my stance entirely. If the player learned how to play to avoid damage in the earlier levels, they will be better prepared for what comes in later levels. The only real change you are referring to is incomming damage. Nothing else about the game really changes. It doesnt matter if the lightning bolt does 400 damage or 400k damage if its avoided. Learning to avoid damage is key, and is not taught when buffs trivialize spell damage in the first 12 character levels.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #122
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    Double post.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-16-2013 at 04:44 PM.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This supports my stance entirely. If the player learned how to play to avoid damage in the earlier levels, they will be better prepared for what comes in later levels. The only real change you are referring to is incomming damage. Nothing else about the game really changes. It doesnt matter if the lightning bolt does 400 damage or 400k damage if its avoided. Learning to avoid damage is key, and is not taught when buffs trivialize spell damage in the first 12 character levels.
    Don't you know that... some people aren't interrested at all in dodging a lightning bolt? Like their reflexes or their level of concentration on what's going on in the background might not even be sharp enought to do it. Or hell, they don't even care because what they're looking for is a relaxing hobby. Ship buff helps those for sure. If they can survive, there are more chances that they stick to the game then if they just get owned by the first kobold shaman they see. They might just get hold because they're going for the archers type first anyways.

    Now don't ask me why would they even step in an elite quest where that lightning bolt/hold really matters though... that would require further investigation. Or it's just XP.

    Ship buffs are like an easy mode which you can or not use.
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  4. #124
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    try soloing Taming the Flames at level with ship buffs and without. its much easier to fight the fire elementals and grab the key running past the fire jets with 30 FR than with none, obviously. try it with just 20 FR pots that are easy to get at a vendor and with a timer much much shorter than ship buffs. its the way it was before ship buffs and its not so easy standing there fighting the fire elementals with fire spewing up in your face and you cant just run down to grab the key so easily. you take much more damage and it requires a bit more tactics. i can solo that quest on elite with no hire, a stack of CSW pots, no evasion, getting max xp and do with little worries. if it wasn't for ship buffs, i wouldn't easily be walking all over that quest like i can.

  5. #125
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This supports my stance entirely. If the player learned how to play to avoid damage in the earlier levels, they will be better prepared for what comes in later levels. The only real change you are referring to is incomming damage. Nothing else about the game really changes. It doesnt matter if the lightning bolt does 400 damage or 400k damage if its avoided. Learning to avoid damage is key, and is not taught when buffs trivialize spell damage in the first 12 character levels.
    Have to agree with Chai here, when the game was hard when you left Harbor and died in your first serious traps and spell blasts like at level 7 or so in Taming the flames or the like, you had to step up or just die a lot. Now people do fine in taming the flames until they lose their ship buffs and everyone spends the rest of the quest dieing over and over. Why? because they can't dodge a fireball, because with 30 fire resist they haven't needed to, they don't know to step to one side right after the fire ele raises his hands above his head. When you tell them after 10 deaths, they die another 10 times because they aren't good at timing it and they are also not lining themselves up with a hallway so even when they side step the FB is hitting a wall next to them and killing them. They are practicing against fairly lethal ele's instead of less lethal stuff like the Kobold Shamen's lightning bolts in water works... which they were also shrugging off without paying attention to...

  6. #126
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    try soloing Taming the Flames at level with ship buffs and without. its much easier to fight the fire elementals and grab the key running past the fire jets with 30 FR than with none, obviously.
    I swear I was writing my example of Taming the flames before I read this. It's a good example.

  7. #127
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Raid leaders need to be using rangers and paladins to resist buff parties. This was standard practice up to and until ship buffs came along.
    Not on my server. It was the cleric and wizard expected to be buff-bots. Most parties avoided taking any ranger whatsoever due to the unfortunate habit of untrained AA's of wiping parties due to poor aggro management.
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  8. #128
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    try soloing Taming the Flames at level with ship buffs and without. its much easier to fight the fire elementals and grab the key running past the fire jets with 30 FR than with none, obviously. try it with just 20 FR pots that are easy to get at a vendor and with a timer much much shorter than ship buffs. its the way it was before ship buffs and its not so easy standing there fighting the fire elementals with fire spewing up in your face and you cant just run down to grab the key so easily. you take much more damage and it requires a bit more tactics. i can solo that quest on elite with no hire, a stack of CSW pots, no evasion, getting max xp and do with little worries. if it wasn't for ship buffs, i wouldn't easily be walking all over that quest like i can.
    cast or umd fire shield cold, problem solved you can run it with no fr resist if you keep that up.

  9. #129
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Don't you know that... some people aren't interrested at all in dodging a lightning bolt? Like their reflexes or their level of concentration on what's going on in the background might not even be sharp enought to do it. Or hell, they don't even care because what they're looking for is a relaxing hobby. Ship buff helps those for sure. If they can survive, there are more chances that they stick to the game then if they just get owned by the first kobold shaman they see. They might just get hold because they're going for the archers type first anyways.
    .
    This is the flip side, there are a lot of D&D players that are used to beer and pretzels gameplay... even if they played MMO's they were used to point and click movement and everything about D&D conditions a player to expect that his saves and only his saves will determine if a fireball hits or not.

    I'm not sure why DDO went with FPS style controls and active high skill ceiling movement ability but they did and while a lot of us like it, they definitely punish some of their player base with it.

    The truth is the only way to cater to a range of players that's broader is to let players with less twitch skills or inclination to use them; still have fun and feel powerful in the game, that means buffs and abilities that don't demand skill... which means that power gamers will use them to trivialize content and min max over powered combo's... It's not an easy balance.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    All of that content was designed well before ship buffs were part of the game, and balanced for 10 point resists.
    This is absolutely false. The entire way that magic works, including the magic used by enemy casters, was thrown out and remade after Guild Buffs were added to the game. Kobold Shaman's Lightning Bolt today is nothing at all like it was four years ago, let alone originally.

  11. #131
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    This is absolutely false. The entire way that magic works, including the magic used by enemy casters, was thrown out and remade after Guild Buffs were added to the game. Kobold Shaman's Lightning Bolt today is nothing at all like it was four years ago, let alone originally.
    comparing normal or elite? because i remember running WW on a character on normal and getting 1 - 2 shotted by the Shamans after airships were brought in back in summer 2010. today, DS has seriously decreased the damage you take on elite in most quests that was hardly ever run when there was no incentives to do it until BB that was put in sep 2011.

  12. #132
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Personally, I think closed channels and guild runs are more detrimental to the game than anything the OP suggested. I have lots of friends online and am an officer of a guild. But I PUG every single heroic elite quest since about a year ago. As a matter of fact, even when I raid, I have 3 or 4 friends then PUG the rest.

    I do this for multiple reasons:

    Its healthy for the game and community. Many new players or even veteran players coming back find DDO a very closed community. I agree, so I have made it a point to be an ambassador to these players. At first I would get frustrated at noobish mistakes, but then I grown to actually have fun and laugh and not worry about 10% penalties. I've met many online friends this way and I will never go back to fully exclusive runs. I hope more people change their ways unless they want DDO to die. I used to solo a lot, and I still don't like to wait around, but I will start a quest with the LFM open and usually take the first 5 to hit the LFM, unless I think the group might need a healer, in that case I will leave LFM at 5 with healer only and allow a hireling to be used. If its a zerg run, I usually post zerg farm in LFM so people know what they are getting into. Just food for thought guys. If you really love DDO, embrace the community and especially the less than experienced players and give them a good experience. And if they are a jerk, well give them a bad experience and hopefully they will leave and go back to WoW.
    This is the OP. Guild runs contribute in part, though it's hard to say how big a problem they are. (Not to imply they're only a bad thing, but they do contribute to a more fractured community, which is generally a bad thing.) I'm not sure how big a problem closed channels are; is /party chat and some OOB mechanism (email, IM, etc) really all that different (besides being slightly less convenient, at least for the party-forming / OOB part)?

    But I see you see a key element of the root problem I was getting at. I applaud your efforts. I mostly do the same. I've run 6x wiz parties, all-and-only-meelee and other "sub-optimal" party mixes, because I'd rather run quests at level and difficulty appropriate to the party and have fun than wait around forever for 'the perfect mix, so we can just zerg elite'. At least people don't routinely get furious anymore at "losing" that 10% death "penalty". But heaven forbid you open a quest at less than elite. It's often like stepping back in time. And not in a good way.

  13. #133
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    This is the flip side, there are a lot of D&D players that are used to beer and pretzels gameplay... even if they played MMO's they were used to point and click movement and everything about D&D conditions a player to expect that his saves and only his saves will determine if a fireball hits or not.

    I'm not sure why DDO went with FPS style controls and active high skill ceiling movement ability but they did and while a lot of us like it, they definitely punish some of their player base with it.

    The truth is the only way to cater to a range of players that's broader is to let players with less twitch skills or inclination to use them; still have fun and feel powerful in the game, that means buffs and abilities that don't demand skill... which means that power gamers will use them to trivialize content and min max over powered combo's... It's not an easy balance.
    Whether or not DDO would have been a good turn-based game is moot. DDO's active style of combat is a key element of the game, relatively distinctive amongst the competition and certainly a strength in the eyes of many. Being able to bull ahead through all and sundry like the Juggernaut doesn't work for long. And if that style of gameplay doesn't scale well, better people learn it when they're 'young', in lower level dungeons where the effort is easier and the penalties are less harsh.

    DDO != D&D. Good, bad or indifferent, they're related but separate beasts. Better people learn that sooner than later, and learn the skills to deal with it under more forgiving conditions.

    And if that's not the type of game a player is interested in, that's fine. Everything doesn't have to appeal to everyone. But I'd hope that's someone decided fairly by the player, and not born out of frustration and false expectations taught to them by the game itself.


    As to not demanding skill...so why not add a "Buff Me Now" to the menu under Daily Dice? Why should new players be penalized not having found a guild to get buffs yet, or to bother having to learn about guild ships, get an invite and hope it's a very high and well stocked ship, to get their dozen max'd buffs and boosts? After all it's not like it'd be required, you could choose to not use the menu item. Isn't this the natural conclusion to your stance?

    I exaggerate a little. But only a little.
    Last edited by Drus-the-Axe; 07-16-2013 at 09:41 PM.

  14. #134
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    +1

    EBB has cut most of the grind out of TR3+. I run a 1000+ EBB on my main character - and once am level above level 3 almost never enter a quest unless I am 2 levels above the quest. This way I get EBB and still am able to handle the 'extreme challenge'.

    I also almost never repeat a quest in a given life unless there is ulterior motives (loot - chain end rewards - sigil pieces - LoD for flagging - shroud ingredients)

    I constantly PUG and lead learning Riads (Chronoscope, Tempest, VON, even Abbot).

    So - not a problem. Not even issues. OP just doesn't like TRing.
    Sheesh! Doesn't anyone read anymore?

    This is the OP.

    When did I say to kill BB? When did I say BB has no value and only causes pain and misery and suffering for TRs and should be cut out of their lives entirely? When did I say changing BB for all 1st life toons is simple and obvious and righteous, regardless if the player is brand new to DDO or has a stable of TRs and on their 10th toon just interested in trying something new?

    I have posted multiple times, just in this very thread, that I can see the value of BB to TRs. That any change to not encourage the 'elite only' mindset needs careful consideration, to do more good than harm. That any change to BB might be best done in a deft and nuanced way, and not in broad strokes with a maul. That DDO, like most MMO, is a complex multi-variable system and changes need to be carefully considered for their side effects and unintended consequences.


    I have concerns about the seemingly shrinking community and its negative impact to the long-term viability of the game, period. There are multiple contributing factors behind this. BB, as currently implemented, encourages the 'elite only' mindset, which makes for few norm/hard LFMs, which makes for a more unforgiving and thus less approachable game to 'new blood'. IMO. And apparently not just mine.

    I fail to see how an old and experienced hand with many TR under their belt (and many lives of gear in hand) can call this irrelevant for those with less experience, gear and hands-on, since the major league vet gameplay isn't a problem.

    Just because it doesn't directly impede MY ability to strive and thrive doesn't mean it's equally easy and inviting to other, newer players.
    Turning DDO into WoW is a bad idea. But so is turning it into a hardcore experienced vets only game.

  15. #135
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    ZZZ... since people cannot control their own actions by entering a difficulty that they can handle, let's change the mechanics of the game! Right.

    Players CHOSE to create mostly elites LFM. Even if it's a trend, the choice is still there. If more people would create more hard/norm LFM, there wouldn't be as much problems.

    To OP: I don't think you're aiming at the right problem and even less coming with solutions that makes sense. At least it's good entertainment I guess.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-16-2013 at 10:15 PM.
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  16. #136
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    Why should new players be penalized not having found a guild to get buffs yet, or to bother having to learn about guild ships, get an invite and hope it's a very high and well stocked ship, to get their dozen max'd buffs and boosts? After all it's not like it'd be required, you could choose to not use the menu item. Isn't this the natural conclusion to your stance?

    I exaggerate a little. But only a little.
    The key element here is “learn”. It goes back to an earlier post. Should we give out past lives to new people so that they do not have to “learn” how to get them? Should we highlight the way thru Waterworks so a new person will not have to “learn” the quest?

    The problem is not BB, ship buffs, or many other things listed. People just don’t have patience to learn. There are many websites that people can visit, but they cannot be bothered. I guess that is the fault of the community or Turbine? I have had the same bio for years now, and it still holds true today. If new people are getting butt hurt that they don’t get what a 7 year vet has, then they can go back to WOW or playing the Xbox.
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  17. #137
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    ZZZ... since people cannot control their own actions by entering a difficulty that they can handle, let's change the mechanics of the game! Right.

    Players CHOSE to create mostly elites LFM. Even if it's a trend, the choice is still there. If more people would create more hard/norm LFM, there wouldn't be as much problems.

    To OP: I don't think you're aiming at the right problem and even less coming with solutions that makes sense. At least it's good entertainment I guess.
    how do you propose players choose a difficulty more fitting for them vs the standard elite difficulty set by the players themselves? make it so hard BB is more bonus xp than elite? players aren't going to choose a lesser difficulty with less bonus xp and they get max favor all rolled into one shot. not saying they shouldn't do a more fitting difficulty, just saying its not going to happen with the current design when players are rewarded best for doing the highest difficulty more than the other difficulties and know some players will carry them through it and to some of us elite for the most part isn't as challenging as it is for others.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    how do you propose players choose a difficulty more fitting for them vs the standard elite difficulty set by the players themselves? make it so hard BB is more bonus xp than elite? players aren't going to choose a lesser difficulty with less bonus xp and they get max favor all rolled into one shot. not saying they shouldn't do a more fitting difficulty, just saying its not going to happen with the current design when players are rewarded best for doing the highest difficulty more than the other difficulties and know some players will carry them through it and to some of us elite for the most part isn't as challenging as it is for others.
    So... should Turbine change the mechanics of the game everytime someone whines about something? I know what you're saying is right because it is how it is today. But the problem lies deeper as I can guess you understand as well. None of the "rewards" for running elite are needed before the items start to have 3 differents versions. And even there, you can get them through trading.

    I guess, let's change the game so it suits every little complaints. I will not try to defend my arguments anymore, it's most likely a lost case.

    I'll just add this last point: For me, the less fun I have is when I follow people that zerg harder than me (because i'm on a life which i'm not as powerful per exemple), and I get to play brainlessly. Playing in your own difficulty field also brings people with the same intentions together. But yeah... to each their own I guess.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-16-2013 at 10:41 PM.
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  19. #139
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    how do you propose players choose a difficulty more fitting for them vs the standard elite difficulty set by the players themselves? make it so hard BB is more bonus xp than elite? players aren't going to choose a lesser difficulty with less bonus xp and they get max favor all rolled into one shot. not saying they shouldn't do a more fitting difficulty, just saying its not going to happen with the current design when players are rewarded best for doing the highest difficulty more than the other difficulties and know some players will carry them through it and to some of us elite for the most part isn't as challenging as it is for others.
    And this is Turbine or the communities fault? I am pretty sure casual, normal and hard are there for more than just window dressing. If you cannot handle elite, what is the next best option?

    What is this standard we live by? I am pretty sure that there are a lot of people that are not worried about xp/minute. This is my biggest problem with this whole thread. You have a bunch of people that want to put forth little effort and want to receive the best rewards.

    If there are as many people posting here that it is just a game and are not worried about xp/minute, then there should be enough people that go against the “standard” and do what they can. Maybe Turbine will listen to the people that want to put forth little effort and we will see a new “standard” that makes doing a normal streak give more xp than elite. I did not think we were ready for the game to be dummed down again, but I guess we are.
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  20. #140
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    And this is Turbine or the communities fault? I am pretty sure casual, normal and hard are there for more than just window dressing. If you cannot handle elite, what is the next best option?

    What is this standard we live by? I am pretty sure that there are a lot of people that are not worried about xp/minute. This is my biggest problem with this whole thread. You have a bunch of people that want to put forth little effort and want to receive the best rewards.

    If there are as many people posting here that it is just a game and are not worried about xp/minute, then there should be enough people that go against the “standard” and do what they can. Maybe Turbine will listen to the people that want to put forth little effort and we will see a new “standard” that makes doing a normal streak give more xp than elite. I did not think we were ready for the game to be dummed down again, but I guess we are.
    Turbine designed it, but its the communities fault for setting the standard. only reason why we are able to complete elite difficulty is because DS was nerfed to the point its expected to be auto complete. i don't think a lot of us saw what has resulted from BB in the beginning. the design is very much flawed. its a great bonus xp that was needed at the time, but it has had a huge negative impact on the game as a whole. its helped out a lot of TRs, but it hasn't done anything to teach players how to play better. with a lot of other things that can be bought/traded for in game now, the learning curve is the exact opposite it was a few years ago and theres a big entitlement issue now. too many things now to bypass learning basic skills. i cant remember the last time i was in a group that didn't zerg or had the time to play.

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