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  1. #61
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I'm guessing that you don't play this game much if you don't see giving casters the choice of having buffing or having more SP's for offense generally just leads to a lot of non-casters not having buffs and being told they have to be more self sufficient, at least in those pugs you like so much.
    Then you'd guess wrong.

    I play quite a bit, for some 5+ years now. And I'verun most every type of toon, on multiple servers, and TR'd several. But I tend to prefer arcanes.

    And no, I see no need to buff everyone, with every defensive spell, all the time. Nor do I see a need to avoid it either. Remember, as a squishy, those big burly meat shields are a good line of defense.

    That said, I don't whip out spells to everyone all the time. Nor do I expect total self sufficiency. And if it's a moderately rounded or full party, I never assume everyone carries pots and clickies. Bards, Rogues and everyone else should have some degree of savvy how to play their toon, and constantly spanking the cute pot button like a hyperactive weasel on crack isn't necessary. DDO isn't Diablo, though too many don't see that. Which is fine. Go play how you like. But yes, I will get irked when the hyperactive weasels on crack push to change DDO into Diablo. If I wanted to play Diablo, I would. Consider this me, pushing back. Pushing for DDO to be DDO and not a bad Diablo Neverwinter knockoff.

    I see no problem with ship buffs, per se. The execution is currently flawed IMO. I see them as horribly OP'd at lower levels, and having (in part) a negative impact at mid to higher levels. If you don't see the holistic issues here, then either you don't understand the concern or you don't see it as a problem. I hope it's not the latter, as that's just another brick in the wall that slowly but inevitably will lead to DDO's end.

  2. #62
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    Then you'd guess wrong.

    I play quite a bit, for some 5+ years now. And I'verun most every type of toon, on multiple servers, and TR'd several. But I tend to prefer arcanes.

    And no, I see no need to buff everyone, with every defensive spell, all the time. Nor do I see a need to avoid it either. Remember, as a squishy, those big burly meat shields are a good line of defense.

    That said, I don't whip out spells to everyone all the time. Nor do I expect total self sufficiency. And if it's a moderately rounded or full party, I never assume everyone carries pots and clickies. Bards, Rogues and everyone else should have some degree of savvy how to play their toon, and constantly spanking the cute pot button like a hyperactive weasel on crack isn't necessary. DDO isn't Diablo, though too many don't see that. Which is fine. Go play how you like. But yes, I will get irked when the hyperactive weasels on crack push to change DDO into Diablo. If I wanted to play Diablo, I would. Consider this me, pushing back. Pushing for DDO to be DDO and not a bad Diablo Neverwinter knockoff.

    I see no problem with ship buffs, per se. The execution is currently flawed IMO. I see them as horribly OP'd at lower levels, and having (in part) a negative impact at mid to higher levels. If you don't see the holistic issues here, then either you don't understand the concern or you don't see it as a problem. I hope it's not the latter, as that's just another brick in the wall that slowly but inevitably will lead to DDO's end.
    I don't see it as an issue because with or without the buffs it's too easy at low level. If I can beat the quest in say 5 mins for a nice easy number with buffs and 6 mins without from going just a touch slower, it means the buffs are convience only.

  3. #63
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    This was not fun for me.
    And that is the point. So why did you burn half your SP on buffs? Were you the only one buffing?

    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    FVS simply did not buff.
    Why not? They certainly have the SP vs a cleric. Is it due to the more limited # of spells? The "I'm on offense" mindset advocated by the FvS class? Was the party more effective with this level of buffing worth the decrease in your contributions later? These are the more interesting types of questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    Part of the lack of LFMs is the acute lack of heal capable players willing to group.
    This is a problem in pretty much every game. Far more people prefer to fight than heal (which probably says something about us as a species, but I digress...)

    Does DDO provide sufficient mechanics to compensate for this social issue? And it is a social issue. It's certainly not technical - Cleric, FVS, Druid, pots and more work just fine. It's not a lack of options, it's a lack of players interested in filling that role. This is not unique to DDO. Does Turbine provide sufficient alternatives that it's not overly deadly to gameplay (aka fun)?

    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    This is summer here in the US. Many new F2P players out there. Some will become paying customers if they like the game well enough, Do we really need to alienate the people willing to heal those newbies?
    I never asked for any change overnight. MMOs are complex systems with many interactions. Any changes of such impact need to be carefully considered. I titled the thread DDO Strategic Issues for a reason. I'd like to see Turbine take steps to address the underlying weaknesses for the long-term health of the game. Given the complexity of the issues, the full plate already for 2013 (u19, u20, enhancement pass, XP alterations, ...) and that these are slow burning strategic and not tactical issues, I don't expect anything to change before 2014.

    And as we've seen, Turbine is open to player input. I'd like to hear their thoughts on the subject, and if they see issues here, to let them chew on it for a while. These are hard problems to solve, so patience is very much a virtue here.

  4. #64
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    And that is the point. So why did you burn half your SP on buffs? Were you the only one buffing?

    Something tells me that either you never played a caster when you were starting out or that you don't remember it very well. Run up a cleric and use only what you find or can buy with the gold earned on that toon. You won't have a vpis and you'll have very little sp at what was back when I started playing a raid that was ran at levels 9-10 most commonly. Buffing used to take large amounts of sp even just passing fom with no meta's because all I had was power 8 or something like that because it's all I had found and I couldn't afford something better at that time as a new player. Yeah ship buffs will let new players enjoy the game more and feel useless less, another reason to not change them.

  5. #65
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Not every player logs in to a level 50+ guild invite.

    This teaches people to avoid caster damage early. Guild resists teach people to ignore the sea of lightning bolts the kobold shaman are throwing around, which is the most dangerous thing in lower levels, other than traps, which are heavily mitigated by ship buffs as well.

    Player retention is hurt more than helped when new (yes honestly new) players are taught to ignore spell damage because it is trivialized by ship buffs at earlier levels, only to wind up hitting that point where a 30 point resist no longer makes spell damage trivial.
    +1

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    *snip*
    Having leveled up characters from 1 through at least 3 (up to 6) on every server except Khyber (home server) within the last 3 months, I can say:

    1) Blind guild invites are not a frequent as I thought they would be based on the forums. When you do get them, the guild can boot you as fast as you join (I have accepted some blind invites for the experience and been booted for simply not logging in enough for their liking).

    2) I have bad luck perhaps; looting a really great piece of weaponry has happened for me once; pulled the scorched handwraps in 3B; sold for about 40k plat.

    3) The best thing has been the Daily Dice, believe it or not, due to getting that plat pull. Most of that goes to hirelings, heal pots (for the times you can't have a hireling), repairs, and occasional equipment upgrade at the vendor or AH. I haven't bought a lot of other pots (except for curses removal); I use what I find.

    In my experience, though, I can definitely see what you are saying in action about new players not having an appreciation for the dangers of traps and spells. As one example, remember when the fire traps in RedFang were to be feared? I have not seen a new player yet find the secret door at the end of that ramp because they zerg through he fire without fear or hesitation to the end fight; when I tell them it is there, they are surprised.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Run up a cleric and use only what you find or can buy with the gold earned on that toon.
    Leveling up a Sroc, Cleric and FvS now on different servers. No problem with mana or gold. Cleric, in particular, has a learning curve - do not overbuff and do not overheal. Takes time to learn that trick.

    Zerging through content or paying to skip content is no substitute for learning to play. I don't mean learning to play to other player's expectations, either. I mean, the basics of understanding what spells you have, how they work in game, when they are best effective, how to cast them in battle and time them correctly. None of those things among a multitude of others skills will come to you until you actually spend time doing it. IMO, you are better off doing that through the early game, which is designed for this, v. getting to end game and then not only being bad, but getting yourself a bad rep.
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  8. #68
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Something tells me that either you never played a caster when you were starting out or that you don't remember it very well. Run up a cleric and use only what you find or can buy with the gold earned on that toon. You won't have a vpis and you'll have very little sp at what was back when I started playing a raid that was ran at levels 9-10 most commonly. Buffing used to take large amounts of sp even just passing fom with no meta's because all I had was power 8 or something like that because it's all I had found and I couldn't afford something better at that time as a new player. Yeah ship buffs will let new players enjoy the game more and feel useless less, another reason to not change them.
    My first character that made it past level 4 was a cleric. Got her to level 15 than turned her into a bank toon. I remember what it was like and not having good gear, let alone proper gear. Parties used to get upset with me because I would spend 5 minutes buffing everyone. This was before ship buffs. My sp would be down to half. I P2W back then so I always bought store mana pots. Without them, my groups would have struggled a lot more and more finger pointing at me for failure. In the end, I actually did learn some valuable lessons like stretching mana out better, players should be bringing their own buff pots and no need to over buff, especially with limited sp. It shouldn't be expected in low levels to blow sp on buffs and hope your sp doesn't run out between shrines. Brand new players I could see having limited resources and not knowing the quests for what to bring, but others shouldn't have that problem.

  9. #69
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    We mostly play a lot less than most forumites and generally don't concentrate on a single character. Personally, I've TRed once in nearly 4 years of playing and don't really think I'm missing out on much as 2nd life is still the same quests as the first was and I can complete most on elite regardless.
    Aren't you bored out of your skull? What do you do to keep the game fun? Serious question.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Raid leaders need to be using rangers and paladins to resist buff parties. This was standard practice up to and until ship buffs came along.
    I have been here for 3 years and I can count number of pallies/rangers that offered resists/foms to help the divine on one hand.
    Some divines are just inexperienced and auto buff with everything but at the end they are usually the ones doing ALL THE BLOODY BUFFING.

    Regarding buffs for heroics elite, you will get hjaste, jump when needed and GH when I see you are not that experienced trapper for some nasty trap.
    And fom/mass dw/Circle against evil where it's needed.
    If newbie asks nicely, they will get Axer package. If you are TR, I will ignore most of your requests, especially for stuff where it's pointless/not needed.

    SP spent on Fireball/Blade barrier/DBF is much better than meaningless blur or whatever and it makes no difference in heroic elites.
    Last edited by Veles; 07-15-2013 at 01:15 PM.

  11. #71
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    I have been here for 3 years and I can count number of pallies/rangers that offered resists/foms to help the divine on one hand.
    Some divines are just inexperienced and auto buff with everything but at the end they are usually the ones doing ALL THE BLOODY BUFFING.

    Regarding buffs for heroics elite, you will get hjaste, jump when needed and GH when I see you are not that experienced trapper for some nasty trap.
    And fom/mass dw/Circle against evil where it's needed.
    If newbie asks nicely, they will get Axer package. If you are TR, I will ignore most of your requests, especially for stuff where it's pointless/not needed.

    SP spent on Fireball/Blade barrier/DBF is much better than meaningless blur or whatever and it makes no difference in heroic elites.
    If the divine is inexperienced, the raid leader should not be, and they were the ones back before ship buffs who were directing the paladins and rangers to add resists to the party members.

    The mentality you describe became apparent once guild ships with buffs entered the game. People keep attempting to imply that the game, especially for new players, will somehow degenerate into the apocolypse if we lost guild buffs, but are forgetting we had to deal with that issue for ~4 years before guild ships were added and 30 point resist shrines became a staple.

    Nowdays there are even limitless supplies of 20 point potions one can use after level 6 if it came down to losing guild buffs.

  12. #72
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If the divine is inexperienced, the raid leader should not be, and they were the ones back before ship buffs who were directing the paladins and rangers to add resists to the party members.

    The mentality you describe became apparent once guild ships with buffs entered the game. People keep attempting to imply that the game, especially for new players, will somehow degenerate into the apocolypse if we lost guild buffs, but are forgetting we had to deal with that issue for ~4 years before guild ships were added and 30 point resist shrines became a staple.

    Nowdays there are even limitless supplies of 20 point potions one can use after level 6 if it came down to losing guild buffs.
    You mean back when the game was dying and wayfinder would've looked like an active server?

  13. #73
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Death Ward. Red light. Green light. GO!

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    If it's so optional, why are almost all LFMs elite only? Why do so many of the population refuse to run quests if not elite?

    You obviously don't understand the issue, game theory or human psychology.


    BB perverts game mechanics. It's an escalation of power creep, it reduces pools of available people, makes people overreach too often (elite's more punishing than hard or norm, especially in some quests - and nothing frustrates people more than failed expectations, regardless if they were reasonable in the 1st place). I have no qualms with BB directly. I have qualms with what it does to the game overall.

    So let me ask -- if BB only applied to TRs (or even BB-Hard for TR-1, BB-Elite for TR-2+), in what ways would that improve and degrade the game?
    And does the upcoming XP curve alterations change your answer?
    This is something the game has always had. Elite first time was always the best bonus and top favor has always only been available from running quests on elite. All BB really does is give players an incentive to run elite and move on rather than the old N/N/N/H/E farm that was useful to Turbine before so much content was available at most levels.

    Really, all making BB only effect TR's would do is reduce the xp of all the 1st and 2nd life characters played by vets would gain from one and done'ing elite content or see only the best xp quests farmed into the ground, depending on play style. Very few are going to change their play style to suit the groups capabilities. It's either get all the favor at once and move on as xp isn't a big issue to them. Or get the xp in the fastest way offered, be that BB or farm.

  15. #75
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    I have been here for 3 years and I can count number of pallies/rangers that offered resists/foms to help the divine on one hand.
    Some divines are just inexperienced and auto buff with everything but at the end they are usually the ones doing ALL THE BLOODY BUFFING.

    Regarding buffs for heroics elite, you will get hjaste, jump when needed and GH when I see you are not that experienced trapper for some nasty trap.
    And fom/mass dw/Circle against evil where it's needed.
    If newbie asks nicely, they will get Axer package. If you are TR, I will ignore most of your requests, especially for stuff where it's pointless/not needed.

    SP spent on Fireball/Blade barrier/DBF is much better than meaningless blur or whatever and it makes no difference in heroic elites.
    Pallys and rangers not buffing today is probably because of a couple things. People are expected to be self sufficient buffing themselves and we have ship buffs that take care of any necessary buffs that they can hand out, which is primarily resists. Fom and DW are the only other really useful buffs they could hand out.

    With your response to blur, it would seem you don't engage your toons in front line combat much. Blur helps mitigate damage which helps in less healing needed. It is actually noticeable.

  16. #76
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Pallys and rangers not buffing today is probably because . . .
    We need our SP to heal ourselves.

    Seriously, people bring healers into groups on purpose?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    Then you'd guess wrong.

    I play quite a bit, for some 5+ years now. And I'verun most every type of toon, on multiple servers, and TR'd several. But I tend to prefer arcanes.

    And no, I see no need to buff everyone, with every defensive spell, all the time. Nor do I see a need to avoid it either. Remember, as a squishy, those big burly meat shields are a good line of defense.

    That said, I don't whip out spells to everyone all the time. Nor do I expect total self sufficiency. And if it's a moderately rounded or full party, I never assume everyone carries pots and clickies. Bards, Rogues and everyone else should have some degree of savvy how to play their toon, and constantly spanking the cute pot button like a hyperactive weasel on crack isn't necessary. DDO isn't Diablo, though too many don't see that. Which is fine. Go play how you like. But yes, I will get irked when the hyperactive weasels on crack push to change DDO into Diablo. If I wanted to play Diablo, I would. Consider this me, pushing back. Pushing for DDO to be DDO and not a bad Diablo Neverwinter knockoff.

    I see no problem with ship buffs, per se. The execution is currently flawed IMO. I see them as horribly OP'd at lower levels, and having (in part) a negative impact at mid to higher levels. If you don't see the holistic issues here, then either you don't understand the concern or you don't see it as a problem. I hope it's not the latter, as that's just another brick in the wall that slowly but inevitably will lead to DDO's end.
    The problem you don't seem to see is that the pool of gamers is to thin to support pretty much any game, so the devs have to design the game to also appeal to players who aren't so interested in incrementally improving so much as jumping in and killing stuff with any personal improvement just being a side effect. It's why most MMO's, or any video game for that matter are so much simpler than DDO.

    So, no. I don't see it as a problem that will lead to DDO's eventual demise, I see it as an attempt at a solution to avoid that.

  18. #78
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The problem you don't seem to see is that the pool of gamers is to thin to support pretty much any game, so the devs have to design the game to also appeal to players who aren't so interested in incrementally improving so much as jumping in and killing stuff with any personal improvement just being a side effect. It's why most MMO's, or any video game for that matter are so much simpler than DDO.
    I do see that. Unless it's Eve Online which has carved out a pretty unique niche - solid gameplay for their audience, no WOW like numbers butt that's OK a quite stable and loyal playerbase, and with new blood on regular occasion. It's not everyone's cup of tea, or even most, but it's solid at what it is and seems generally stable overall. Is DDO?

    To be honest, I think Iconics is one of the better things Turbine's done to draw in new blood. Starting off toons at moderate power, with reasonably appropriate gear (including pots), and also as essentially the "start in Faerun" option. I think this is a better stab at drawing in new blood than most of their previous attempts. And the ship buff issue's not such a problem (though it does pervert gameplay a little, but not horrifically as for lower levels).


    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    So, no. I don't see it as a problem that will lead to DDO's eventual demise, I see it as an attempt at a solution to avoid that.
    Do you see it as a good one?

  19. #79
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    I have been here for 3 years and I can count number of pallies/rangers that offered resists/foms to help the divine on one hand.
    Some divines are just inexperienced and auto buff with everything but at the end they are usually the ones doing ALL THE BLOODY BUFFING.

    Regarding buffs for heroics elite, you will get hjaste, jump when needed and GH when I see you are not that experienced trapper for some nasty trap.
    And fom/mass dw/Circle against evil where it's needed.
    If newbie asks nicely, they will get Axer package. If you are TR, I will ignore most of your requests, especially for stuff where it's pointless/not needed.

    SP spent on Fireball/Blade barrier/DBF is much better than meaningless blur or whatever and it makes no difference in heroic elites.
    +1 (though I disagree on Blur - if anything it's more useful on elites than non)

    P.S. Veles, I always share out relevant buffs on my Rgr and Pal :-)

    Though if I'm not high level with lots of SP, I tend to dole out judiciously, e.g. barkskin to meelees and artis, occasional cures as need demands it (better to help heal someone in a jam than stick to slashing away and dealing with their death). And even at higher level, resists usually not to casters - those with far larger SP pools should be better able to handle their own needs.

  20. #80
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drus-the-Axe View Post
    +1 (though I disagree on Blur - if anything it's more useful on elites than non)

    P.S. Veles, I always share out relevant buffs on my Rgr and Pal :-)

    Though if I'm not high level with lots of SP, I tend to dole out judiciously, e.g. barkskin to meelees and artis, occasional cures as need demands it (better to help heal someone in a jam than stick to slashing away and dealing with their death). And even at higher level, resists usually not to casters - those with far larger SP pools should be better able to handle their own needs.
    level 4 solution that can be farmed up in a couple hours and should be by any front line melee

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Bracers_of_Wind_%28Level_4%29

    Passing blur at low levels is pointless because it doesn't last long enough, and with how extend was neutered u9 I think it was it's not worth taking for most toons.

    If you need blur this is what you need, now for a brand new player yeah I'll pass it, everyone else has better options.

    edit*
    and by high levels you should have something with permanent blur on it, or be able to cast/umd it for yourself.
    Last edited by Charononus; 07-15-2013 at 03:47 PM.

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